Injecting I agree with you on... but are you telling me that you never indulge in a beer or a glass of wine or spirits?

I am probably one of the few who don't drink at all, zero alcohol. I used to drink many years ago but woke up with a really bad hangover one day 23 years ago and decided that I wouldn't drink anymore and haven't to this day.

Is anyone surprised!

The fight of his life.

He's in for one massive battle.

I am probably one of the few who don't drink at all, zero alcohol. I used to drink many years ago but woke up with a really bad hangover one day 23 years ago and decided that I wouldn't drink anymore and haven't to this day.

Good, so at least you are consistent in your argument; I really cannot tolerate people who decry drug addicts yet quite happily consume the most destructive drug known on the planet.

I agree with the first paragraph but would add the phrase, stupid, arrogant or the invincibility of youth.

Its only your last sentence that I wonder about. I do wonder how much of the Cousins arrogance and bravado is just front and if he just dismisses his demons or if he is even able to .I wonder if the knowledge of what he has become does torment him.

I'm sure at times it does I can draw on my own experience when I did drink, there would be many a time I'd look at myself in the mirror in the morning after a big session the day before and ask myself why I do it only to go out and do it again that day.

Of course there would be times he'd reflect, but as soon as the first call in the morning came from a mate saying he had some stuff, all that would be out the window and he'd be off for another day of whatever he was able to get.

I had many mates who rang me and wanted "lunch" and it was hard to knock them back but you eventually have to make a decision about your life and where you want to head. Until Ben decides that, he is trapped in an ever decreasing cycle of doom and eventually he'll be found either dead or close to it.

Injecting I agree with you on... but are you telling me that you never indulge in a beer or a glass of wine or spirits?

C'mon hardtack, life is all about making choices and accepting responsibility for your actions (or at least it was)

tu quoque (/tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/),^[1] (Latin for "you, too" or "you, also") or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's point of view based on criticism of the person's inconsistency, and not the position presented.^[2] Thus, it is a form of the ad hominem argument.^[3]

I agree with the first paragraph but would add the phrase, stupid, arrogant or the invincibility of youth.

Its only your last sentence that I wonder about. I do wonder how much of the Cousins arrogance and bravado is just front and if he just dismisses his demons or if he is even able to .I wonder if the knowledge of what he has become does torment him.

You've hit the nail on the head. Latest vison of Ben arrving back into Perth this morning shows him smiling away as if nothing is the matter.

It's his way of dealing with it - complete denial. Just like that of an addict.

Addiction clouds rational thought.

C'mon hardtack, life is all about making choices and accepting responsibility for your actions (or at least it was)

I don't disagree with that... but are you telling me that every person who used a drug or drunk a glass of alchohol, made such a choice believing that they could end up addicted with their lives in ruin (and despite the fact that it is legal, alchohol does ruin more lives than any other drug, both directly and indirectly. Some people know when to stop and are physically/mentally capable of doing so... unfortunately there are others who don't realise they don't have that capacity until they have passed the point of no return.

I don't disagree with that... but are you telling me that every person who used a drug or drunk a glass of alchohol, made such a choice believing that they could end up addicted with their lives in ruin (and despite the fact that it is legal, alchohol does ruin more lives than any other drug, both directly and indirectly. Some people know when to stop and are physically/mentally capable of doing so... unfortunately there are others who don't realise they don't have that capacity until they have passed the point of no return.

Quite a few kids drink alcohol when they are young and incapable of rational thought, they usually pinch some from the fridge and drink because of peer pressure; at that stage I doubt they would consider or even be aware of the consequences. Drug taking is creeping down too and there are many stories of drugs being available at schools in one form or another and the same thing applies to the drinking of alcohol in a lot of these instances, the kids are too young to fully understand.

My beef is with those old enough and smart(?) enough to know what the ultimate effect could be; I don't know when Ben started but i would assume that when he did he was aware of the consequences. If his whole lifestyle revolves around those that take and those that sell he will never get out of that cycle.

Edited March 29, 201213 yr by RobbieF

Good, so at least you are consistent in your argument; I really cannot tolerate people who decry drug addicts yet quite happily consume the most destructive drug known on the planet.

Rubbish argument have heard this one before too. You really want to compare Ben Cousins problems with my having a couple of glasses of red, or a couple of beers after mowing the lawns.

In terms of risk it's a bit like comparing driving a car to jumping off a cliff.

Rubbish argument have heard this one before too. You really want to compare Ben Cousins problems with my having a couple of glasses of red, or a couple of beers after mowing the lawns.

In terms of risk it's a bit like comparing driving a car to jumping off a cliff.

And I could point you to many social drug users who lead perfectly normal lives and do not have the problems that the likes of Ben Cousins experience... the risks with many social drugs are no different to those of alchohol... it is just a matter of knowing when to stop. That comment of mine you are responding to was not directly related to Ben Cousins, it was a reference to people who denounce drug use while using drugs themselves.

Lots of good stuff here showing the complexity of the issue.

I remember discussing Ben with Jim when Ben was up for trade. I proposed that Ben could represent a positive story to MFC using some of the experience and resources of Reach to contribute in a positive fashion.

Jim said something along the lines of he is an addict and unfortunately his situation will end in disaster which the MFC and Reach do not want to associate with. Of course he hoped for the best and wished ben every success but felt it more appropriate and worthwhile to put energy into more positive and winnable causes. THank goodness he did.

I often thought of these comments and witnessed Jims consistency in applying himself. I feel proud to be influenced by Jim and try in my insignificant way to emulate the passion and compassion he displayed.

I also think no ill of Ben and feel strangely sorry for him.

I don't disagree with that... but are you telling me that every person who used a drug or drunk a glass of alchohol, made such a choice believing that they could end up addicted with their lives in ruin (and despite the fact that it is legal, alchohol does ruin more lives than any other drug, both directly and indirectly. Some people know when to stop and are physically/mentally capable of doing so... unfortunately there are others who don't realise they don't have that capacity until they have passed the point of no return.

hardtack this debate/discussion is not about every "drug" on the planet and whether Robbie has a drink now and again

its about Ben Cousins and his addiction to specifically drugs such as chrystal meth

bringing up a tu quoque argument to counter Robbie's points just sidetracks the discussion and avoids addressing his points

And I could point you to many social drug users who lead perfectly normal lives and do not have the problems that the likes of Ben Cousins experience... the risks with many social drugs are no different to those of alchohol... it is just a matter of knowing when to stop. That comment of mine you are responding to was not directly related to Ben Cousins, it was a reference to people who denounce drug use while using drugs themselves.

I rarely drink (lucky to have 10 drinks a year) and dont do drugs. I understand the devastation that alcohol can cause. My mind tells me ( with absolutely no data at all !) that the percentage of social drinkers becoming alcoholics would be significantly lower than social drug users becoming addicts ( and the discrepancy would be even more pronounced if you take weed out the picture).

There is a perception that social drinking is ok and we dont make the immediate link to alcoholism whereas social drugs (excluding marijuana) has an association of "dont go there - you are flirting with extreme danger" ie addiction.

Am I right ?

Edited March 29, 201213 yr by nutbean

.. the risks with many social drugs are no different to those of alchohol...

The big difference in my eyes is the fact that alcohol is legal and many of the drugs are illigal. Whilst i agree they both have similar risks in terms of addiction i think the fact that drugs are against the law means it society should make more of a deal about people using them. Social drug use is a crime, and those who take drugs socially are criminals in the eyes of the law. Yes, its a faily minor crime in the scheme of things, but if society made more of a deal about it and the punishments for possesion were harder we would have less crime, less broken homes etc etc.

Thats another reason why i find it so hard to feel for drug adicts. They have knowingly broken the law.

hardtack this debate/discussion is not about every "drug" on the planet and whether Robbie has a drink now and again

its about Ben Cousins and his addiction to specifically drugs such as chrystal meth

bringing up a tu quoque argument to counter Robbie's points just sidetracks the discussion and avoids addressing his points

DC... I was responding to Robbie's comments and in particular the line "swallowing something that could potentially ruin their lives". This discussion is NOT about a particular drug (yes he was busted with speed, but speed is not central to the discussion), it is about a couple of things... one being Benny's problem and whether or not compassion is appropriate, and the other is the issue of addiction in general. Mine was a valid response as, whether you accept it or not, alchohol when abused IS a drug of addiction and when swallowed too often or in too large quantities, like any drug, can ruin lives - and as it is freely available, it has far wider reaching consequences.

I think Nutbean is correct in his perceptions, but that is one thing that makes alchohol worse in some ways... despite the fact that the dangers of both illegal drugs and alchohol are taught in schools from a very early age, there is still this perception that alchohol is not dangerous... I enjoy a drink, but I would love to see advertising abolished in much the same way as advertisements for tobacco products were removed as I think that is part of the problem.

And DemonWA argues correctly that drugs are against the law and so society should make more of a big deal about them... well, so is alchohol consumption by minors, yet parents will often encourage the behaviour by giving their children a "taste" of beer and advertisers will make it look "cool" to carry on like an idiot while drinking. And when it comes to broken homes, I can guarantee you that alchohol is probably a much bigger factor than illegal drug addiction will ever be.

Anyway, that is my take on things and my argument was not intended to be a "tu quoque" argument - maybe you just wanted to throw that in there? I know I'd want to if I had that word hanging around in my head ;-)

DC... I was responding to Robbie's comments and in particular the line "swallowing something that could potentially ruin their lives". This discussion is NOT about a particular drug (yes he was busted with speed, but speed is not central to the discussion), it is about a couple of things... one being Benny's problem and whether or not compassion is appropriate, and the other is the issue of addiction in general. Mine was a valid response as, whether you accept it or not, alchohol when abused IS a drug of addiction and when swallowed too often or in too large quantities, like any drug, can ruin lives - and as it is freely available, it has far wider reaching consequences.

I think Nutbean is correct in his perceptions, but that is one thing that makes alchohol worse in some ways... despite the fact that the dangers of both illegal drugs and alchohol are taught in schools from a very early age, there is still this perception that alchohol is not dangerous... I enjoy a drink, but I would love to see advertising abolished in much the same way as advertisements for tobacco products were removed as I think that is part of the problem.

And DemonWA argues correctly that drugs are against the law and so society should make more of a big deal about them... well, so is alchohol consumption by minors, yet parents will often encourage the behaviour by giving their children a "taste" of beer and advertisers will make it look "cool" to carry on like an idiot while drinking. And when it comes to broken homes, I can guarantee you that alchohol is probably a much bigger factor than illegal drug addiction will ever be.

Anyway, that is my take on things and my argument was not intended to be a "tu quoque" argument - maybe you just wanted to throw that in there? I know I'd want to if I had that word hanging around in my head ;-)

Gee I bet you are glad you raised this one HT!

people are falling out of the sky on you.

The footy starts in 2 days so something else to talk about.

Gee I bet you are glad you raised this one HT!

people are falling out of the sky on you.

The footy starts in 2 days so something else to talk about.

Hey OD, I have no problem with it... I like a good robust discussion as long as it doesn't get abusive, which this hasn't ;-) But yes, I do look forward to the footy... which actually starts tonight by the way; a game I am interested in purely because I want to see just where both of those teams now sit... I want them both to fail, but unfortunately one will have to prevail.

DC... I was responding to Robbie's comments and in particular the line "swallowing something that could potentially ruin their lives". This discussion is NOT about a particular drug (yes he was busted with speed, but speed is not central to the discussion), it is about a couple of things... one being Benny's problem and whether or not compassion is appropriate, and the other is the issue of addiction in general. Mine was a valid response as, whether you accept it or not, alchohol when abused IS a drug of addiction and when swallowed too often or in too large quantities, like any drug, can ruin lives - and as it is freely available, it has far wider reaching consequences.

I think Nutbean is correct in his perceptions, but that is one thing that makes alchohol worse in some ways... despite the fact that the dangers of both illegal drugs and alchohol are taught in schools from a very early age, there is still this perception that alchohol is not dangerous... I enjoy a drink, but I would love to see advertising abolished in much the same way as advertisements for tobacco products were removed as I think that is part of the problem.

And DemonWA argues correctly that drugs are against the law and so society should make more of a big deal about them... well, so is alchohol consumption by minors, yet parents will often encourage the behaviour by giving their children a "taste" of beer and advertisers will make it look "cool" to carry on like an idiot while drinking. And when it comes to broken homes, I can guarantee you that alchohol is probably a much bigger factor than illegal drug addiction will ever be.

Anyway, that is my take on things and my argument was not intended to be a "tu quoque" argument - maybe you just wanted to throw that in there? I know I'd want to if I had that word hanging around in my head ;-)

Well the thread is a train wreck now.

Its too general

Seems to now cover all drugs, all addiction and all levels of compassion

I'm outta here

Hey OD, I have no problem with it... I like a good robust discussion as long as it doesn't get abusive, which this hasn't ;-) But yes, I do look forward to the footy... which actually starts tonight by the way; a game I am interested in purely because I want to see just where both of those teams now sit... I want them both to fail, but unfortunately one will have to prevail.

I was not suggesting you was getting abused HT but you seems to be holding up one side of the discussion on your own.

As you probably noticed I am pretty much flattened by the subject.

I do not know what can be down,

it depresses the crap out of me as the only thing that seems to change is the size of the problem.

PS Is "Flattened" a word

I think Nutbean is correct in his perceptions, but that is one thing that makes alchohol worse in some ways... despite the fact that the dangers of both illegal drugs and alchohol are taught in schools from a very early age, there is still this perception that alchohol is not dangerous... I enjoy a drink, but I would love to see advertising abolished in much the same way as advertisements for tobacco products were removed as I think that is part of the problem.

I suppose being uninitiated in drugs my key questions on alcohol vs drugs is the concept and affects of moderation and secondly the road to addiction on alcohol vs drugs.

I can have one drink and I can work, drive and interact coherently( some may question this !) .Can the same be said for taking a drug ? Unless I am mistaken there are degrees with alcohol - I have one drink and it has a tiny impact on me. An almost imperceptable degree of calming ( taking the edge off). Can you get the tiniest bit stoned on drugs ?

More importantly is the addiction question ( which I honestly dont know the answer to) - take 10 guys and give them one beer everyday for a month - after the month how many could stop without any affect - how many would be on the road to becoming alcoholics. Now replace the beer with say ice. With zero insight or knowledge I would suggest that affect a month would be the % of ice users that are moving to addiction be much higher. Thats why I question the equality of the terms social drinker and social drug user.

Again I will put in the big disclaimer of not knowing and just throwing out my unsubstantiated thoughts.

Hey OD, I have no problem with it... I like a good robust discussion as long as it doesn't get abusive, which this hasn't ;-) But yes, I do look forward to the footy... which actually starts tonight by the way; a game I am interested in purely because I want to see just where both of those teams now sit... I want them both to fail, but unfortunately one will have to prevail.

Well without being flippant -I so want the Dees winning to become my preferred drug of addiction.

People seem to forget that this guy chooses to associate with some of the biggest sleezebag low lifes and corrupters of Vulnerable youth in the country. Is he a victim or just of the gang that's gone off?

Edited March 29, 201213 yr by Jackie

PS Is "Flattened" a word

Yes, it's the opposite of "flattered" (on the rest of your comments, I agree)

Well without being flippant -I so want the Dees winning to become my preferred drug of addiction.

I'll drink to that :-)

(on your post prior to that, I think you are right... but I suppose being a legal drug means that the alchohol problem is on a much larger scale.)

Edited March 29, 201213 yr by hardtack

What smacks of ignorance is that many clubs feed there palyers caffeine pills during a game for the extra energy and the quick hit.

Talk about a pre-cursor of things to come for those that are easily swayed.