Funny you mention that...was just this breakfast yacking with bro-in law ( happens to be filth...but so is wife and 3/4 of her blloody rabblle..lol I digreess lol ) and he raised the situation with a number of clubs.. Swans under Eade..had all the makings but just couldnt lift and get over the fence.. Roos comes in...Bingo.. Similalry Eade's failing at teh Doggies.. and most would say hes a decent coach. Scwabby built the blocks and stuff at Hawthron but again..couldnt lift them...Calrkson comes in..and changed that. In hindsight knight's list was as bad as possibly made out.. Hird?Thompson arrive..and lo and behold. Way back when.. Kornes had the Crows..not a half bad outfit..couldnt crack it.. in Blight.. Flags..... Brisbane need I go on.. theres a trend. And it speaks to this connotation of acceptance....and the acceptance of what !

I agrre.. Melbourne often gives off the vapours that ..hey ..we've made it as were playing ( still ) phew!!! Yep we go out have a go.. ah well ..always next week, next season next millenia etc etc.

They play with a Schoiolboy /Schools mentality...ie.. where it seems footy is important but theres more to their existence.. Well heres a message to the players. When you don that jumper FOOTBALL is the ONLY existence... 2nd , 3rd 4th efforts are the ONLY way. A Flag is the ONLY acceptable level of reward. Its not good enough to just to play and/or well ...16 other teams will do that..

It worries me that as you suggest its the 23 and under brigade thatmight bring this change but if they are immersed sufficiently long in the current 'culture' then they too will turn out the same.

You raise some interesting points, but I think you misread them.

I don't think it is about coaches being unable to sufficiently mould the culture and they need to be replaced by someone that can - I think it's a case of teams always reaching a period in their development where they see-saw, having good and bad outings, and the supporters and clubs themselves lose patience, replacing the coach as the team finds its feet.

As a result, the incoming coach looks like a genius when the players inevitably mature not long later, while the incumbent looks like a dunce who was unable to take that next step.

We are seeing a similar situation now with Bailey.

I do however subscribe to the theory that after a number of years a playing group can become sick of the same old voice and it has a negative effect.

This is where I think the really skilled head coaches come to the fore.

Coaches like Malthouse who have proven longevity are smart enough to rotate assistant coaches over the years and to delegate responsibilities as often as they can.

Letting assistants perform his role during the NAB cup, for example, keeps things fresh.

He's always there, Mick, but his assistants are given a lot of license to take charge of their lines.

They do a lot of the communication with supervision and approval from Mick.

The players don't reach a point where they've had enough of Mick himself.

Talking coaching is one thing, jumping to the conclusion that Matthews is therefore 'mentoring' Dean is another.

I am not jumping to any conclusion, all i said was, it was a possibility, and to be honest i think it would be a great initiative...

No idea why people are so paranoid of the word "Mentoring"...Doesn't seem to bother Essendon at all does it.

They have got the ship back on course after only a minor hiccup. Unlike ours that has staggered along for 50 years and nobody wants to take responsibility to address it....

My god, I have not once claimed to know anything. I am but a lover of the game and supporter of my club. All I have done is asked the question what is culture in terms of football? Your answer? "It does exist. West Coast Has it....Fremantle doesn't."....thanks alot.

I have never seen first hand the day to day workings of Hawthorn, Carlton or Essendon but I would love you to explain what you saw there and how it compares to MFC.

What i saw there & what i felt there was organizations that refused to accept losing. No matter what.

Watch the '89 Grand Final & watch the Hawthorn Culture first hand....Badly wounded as the game wore on, but kicking just enough goals in the last Quarter to keep the Cats away from the grail.

As the siren went the Ambulances took many players off to hospital.

As i said...Wet Coke have it...Fremantle do not. I am trying to illustrate to you what culture is.

We had it with Norm Smith, but it is so long ago now we almost have to build a brand new one....

Almost.

As i said to you yesterday...You have never walked into the Hawthorn, Carlton or Essendon Clubs have you....Here lies the reason you do not understand the fundamentals of culture.

It does exist. West Coast Has it....Fremantle doesn't.

West Coast indeed had it....in the white powdered form. FMD. If ever a club had a malignant culture that caused them to self destruct it was WCE. Its not the culture I want at MFC.

Please dont berate other posters about understanding the fundementals of culture when you clearly dont understand them yourselves.

Talking coaching is one thing, jumping to the conclusion that Matthews is therefore 'mentoring' Dean is another.

Never let the facts get in the way of.....

What i saw there & what i felt there was organizations that refused to accept losing. No matter what.

Watch the '89 Grand Final & watch the Hawthorn Culture first hand....Badly wounded as the game wore on, but kicking just enough goals in the last Quarter to keep the Cats away from the grail.

As the siren went the Ambulances took many players off to hospital.

As i said...Wet Coke have it...Fremantle do not. I am trying to illustrate to you what culture is.

We had it with Norm Smith, but it is so long ago now we almost have to build a brand new one....

Almost.

Not sure why everyone is on your back.

I agree with you I have mates who are members of Essendon and Hawthorn

When I go with them the atmosphere is totally different.

There is an air of "we will win today" even when they are doing badly.

people are on edge, keyed up for the fight ahead.

The battle of britain is about to start.

The best way I can describe the MFC is that "we are going out to do well today boys"

Now that maybe a little over stated but I hope you get the message.

It is just really different.

West Coast indeed had it....in the white powdered form. FMD. If ever a club had a malignant culture that caused them to self destruct it was WCE. Its not the culture I want at MFC.

Please dont berate other posters about understanding the fundementals of culture when you clearly dont understand them yourselves.

Never let the facts get in the way of.....

they won a flag and got within a kick of another, and they are already on the way back. They have one of the best records of any club pound for pound and are richer than God

i'll take their culture thanks

West Coast indeed had it....in the white powdered form. FMD. If ever a club had a malignant culture that caused them to self destruct it was WCE. Its not the culture I want at MFC.

Please dont berate other posters about understanding the fundementals of culture when you clearly dont understand them yourselves.Never let the facts get in the way of.....

"Hello Neuman" I knew you would pop by soon.

Please do not lecture me Rhino you are becoming Tiresome

The Score....Wet Coke 3 Flags....Fremantle 0..nil Donut.

2011... Wet Coke reloading....Fremantle faltering..

Fact. That is culture in a nutshell

they won a flag and got within a kick of another, and they are already on the way back. They have one of the best records of any club pound for pound and are richer than God

i'll take their culture thanks

Me too C&B

Any one notice a certain played called Darling with another good game and 2.2 goals again.

Pity about his naughty boy status.

they won a flag and got within a kick of another, and they are already on the way back. They have one of the best records of any club pound for pound and are richer than God

i'll take their culture thanks

In tablet or in powdered form?

WCE knowingly allowed and tolerated activities and behaviours from senior players that lead to one possible club great to self destruct in order to achieve short term success. They have also lost once in a generation elite midfielder (Judd)because of it. They should have been looking at a dynasty of success which would have challenged Geelong. One flag from such a rich golden opportunity is a really poor show.

Please do not lecture me Rhino you are becoming Tiresome

The Score....Wet Coke 3 Flags....Fremantle 0..nil Donut.

2011... Wet Coke reloading....Fremantle faltering..

Fact. That is culture in a nutshell

See I told you, you didn't know. Why go on to prove it further?

Not sure why everyone is on your back.

I agree with you I have mates who are members of Essendon and Hawthorn

When I go with them the atmosphere is totally different.

There is an air of "we will win today" even when they are doing badly.

people are on edge, keyed up for the fight ahead.

The battle of britain is about to start.

The best way I can describe the MFC is that "we are going out to do well today boys"

Now that maybe a little over stated but I hope you get the message.

It is just really different.

Oh i do not mind OD, i know i am right.

I worked at GTV 9 in the 80's when the Goanna ran the joint & we always expected to thrash HSV & ATV in the ratings every time.

I know winning culture & the MFC has been too polite for years to demand it back.

We lost it in '65, but some around here still refuse to accept that.

In tablet or in powdered form?

WCE knowingly allowed and tolerated activities and behaviours from senior players that lead to one possible club great to self destruct in order to achieve short term success. They have also lost once in a generation elite midfielder (Judd)because of it. They should have been looking at a dynasty of success which would have challenged Geelong. One flag from such a rich golden opportunity is a really poor show.

After 47 years RR I could tolerate it, 2 GF appearances and 1 win then a recovery in a few years.

I can tolerate that, it sounds a lot better than a 47 year drought now that "is a really poor show".

Give me some success and if that means a couple of Cousins' at the expense of choir boys so be it.

I Beg your Pardon??? I think Leigh Matthews knows a few tthings about Top Line Coaching....A perfect Mentor if in fact it is happening.

I wonder about your agenda on here sometimes to Artie.

It's pretty clear, I'd have thought.

I take issue with your lazy and thoughtless use of a cliche, that Matthews "always gave 110%".

It implies Bailey doesn't give a full effort, and also that Matthews would be able to teach him to give a full effort.

It's absolute rubbish.

That's my agenda.

I also agreed that a mentor would be a good thing for Bailey.

I don't care if it's Matthews, and I don't think it makes much of a difference if it is him or not, only that it is someone qualified to be a mentor to a senior AFL coach.

(Parkin, Walls, Matthews, Blight, Pagan, Alves, Wallace, Frawley come to mind, and some of them obviously would have a conflict of interest right now).

After 47 years RR I could tolerate it, 2 GF appearances and 1 win then a recovery in a few years.

I can tolerate that, it sounds a lot better than a 47 year drought now that "is a really poor show".

Give me some success and if that means a couple of Cousins' at the expense of choir boys so be it.

Its not a case of Cousins vs choir boys.

But our lack of success in 46 years is not as pathetic as your self promotion on knowing what a "winning culture is".

Many people who post on this site have worked in successful organisation but dont need to pizz on others about alleged "expertise"

You regularly claim to have some extra/special/god given ability to be pre eminent on an issue when your posts suggest its illusory and often fantasy at best.

Please continue to lecture all on "culture". Your disciples await your next "I know" vindication.

It's pretty clear, I'd have thought.

I take issue with your lazy and thoughtless use of a cliche, that Matthews "always gave 110%".

It implies Bailey doesn't give a full effort, and also that Matthews would be able to teach him to give a full effort.

It's absolute rubbish.

That's my agenda.

I also agreed that a mentor would be a good thing for Bailey.

I don't care if it's Matthews, and I don't think it makes much of a difference if it is him or not, only that it is someone qualified to be a mentor to a senior AFL coach.

(Parkin, Walls, Matthews, Blight, Pagan, Alves, Wallace, Frawley come to mind, and some of them obviously would have a conflict of interest right now).

I don't mind who it is either...it is always good practise to hand down knowledge from one generation to another.

I have never implied that Dean Bailey does not give 110% But Leigh Matthews has coached in 5 GF's for 4 wins and also 4 winning GF's as a player so i consider him to be highly credentialled.

I am interested why you would refer to me as Lazy...I look for the best person to do a certain job.

Leigh Matthews is now too old to coach, but young enough to still be full of great knowledge of his craft.

If infact DB is talking to him..Cool. All power to Dean.

Nothing lazy about that.

Its not a case of Cousins vs choir boys.

But our lack of success in 46 years is not as pathetic as your self promotion on knowing what a "winning culture is".

Many people who post on this site have worked in successful organisation but dont need to pizz on others about alleged "expertise"

You regularly claim to have some extra/special/god given ability to be pre eminent on an issue when your posts suggest its illusory and often fantasy at best.

Please continue to lecture all on "culture". Your disciples await your next "I know" vindication.

Please Explain....What a load of absolute Drivel....

Talk about Lecturing...

Its not a case of Cousins vs choir boys.

But our lack of success in 46 years is not as pathetic as your self promotion on knowing what a "winning culture is".

Many people who post on this site have worked in successful organisation but dont need to pizz on others about alleged "expertise"

You regularly claim to have some extra/special/god given ability to be pre eminent on an issue when your posts suggest its illusory and often fantasy at best.

Please continue to lecture all on "culture". Your disciples await your next "I know" vindication.

Where in my comment does it mention the word "culture"

My comment is about success.

WCE have had it in spades we have not simple as that.

I said I would trade some success for a loss of our "choir Boy" image.

As for the rest slagging me off is not much of an answer.

Please Explain....What a load of absolute Drivel....

Talk about Lecturing...

Eekk i confused old dee with you. My unreserved apologies to Old dee.

I know you would not get it. Now back to the days when you and Goanna lashed Channel 7 and 2.....

Where in my comment does it mention the word "culture"

My comment is about success.

WCE have had it in spades we have not simple as that.

I said I would trade some success for a loss of our "choir Boy" image.

As for the rest slagging me off is not much of an answer.

Don't take it personally, Rhino loves to spread the love around. B)

The Score....Wet Coke 3 Flags....Fremantle 0..nil Donut.

2011... Wet Coke reloading....Fremantle faltering..

Fact. That is culture in a nutshell

have you bothered to look at freo's injury list? it's no wonder. just because they lose to the eagles in wa, doesn't mean they are on the way down. look at west coasts form through hawthorn in tassie. the hawks rate them and the general footy industry know it. except you.

here is another fact, west coast won two of their 3 flags before freo started. freo's performances and circumstances including shite drafting and trading early on made it a joke, but wht harvey has put in place in his time through hard work is culture changing and that of demanding good performance. consitently.

just at a glance - in a nut shell - you have no idea.

Where in my comment does it mention the word "culture"

My comment is about success.

WCE have had it in spades we have not simple as that.

I said I would trade some success for a loss of our "choir Boy" image.

As for the rest slagging me off is not much of an answer.

Sorry about that slagging mistaken you for another poster. apologies given elswhere.

I agree with you that WCE had it in spades and they blew it (or something else with it).

I'd love a flag but with the hard work being done I dont want to compromise that success in the way WCE did.

With where they were coming into 2005, they should have been looking at a number of flags from that group. They got one. But they paid a penalty which is still costing them for their excesses. They are an extremely rich club with great resources. Its early days whether they are back on track.

There are a number of models of success that we have seen in the past...Brisbane, Geelong and most recently Collingwood. I would gladly consider their experiences as a model to emulate. But WCE reminds of the fortune of one of their favoured sons. Had it all at their feet, but blew the opportunity. And at their recent zenith in 2005/6, WCE had it all. But they had harboured and fostered a malignant underbelly which dulled their success.

Eekk i confused old dee with you. My unreserved apologies to Old dee.

I know you would not get it. Now back to the days when you and Goanna lashed Channel 7 and 2.....

consider it accepted

I don't mind who it is either...it is always good practise to hand down knowledge from one generation to another.

I have never implied that Dean Bailey does not give 110% But Leigh Matthews has coached in 5 GF's for 4 wins and also 4 winning GF's as a player so i consider him to be highly credentialled.

I am interested why you would refer to me as Lazy...I look for the best person to do a certain job.

Leigh Matthews is now too old to coach, but young enough to still be full of great knowledge of his craft.

If infact DB is talking to him..Cool. All power to Dean.

Nothing lazy about that.

My god you are painfully slow on this one.

You DID imply that Bailey doesn't give 110%, as the one positive noted about Matthews was that he did.

If Bailey already did, then what would be point of mentioning it, or even bringing in Matthews?

If you read a bit more carefully, I referred to your "lazy and thoughtless use of a cliche".

Which in this case, made implications towards Bailey that weren't correct.

If you took the time to understand what you were saying, you might have formed in your own words something more appropriate and meaningful.

NPMLSM!

I'm enjoying this "who's-got-the-biggest-John-Thomas" competition

There was some saying about those who make the most noise but it escapes me at the moment. Maybe rpfc can remember?

Carry on chaps...........

NPMLSM!

I'm enjoying this "who's-got-the-biggest-John-Thomas" competition

There was some saying about those who make the most noise but it escapes me at the moment. Maybe rpfc can remember?

Carry on chaps...........

Empty vessels, DC.

Empty vessels.

But everyone knows - the louder you are, the better your argument...