See what i mean, I don't care what other clubs do I care what we do if other clubs make mistakes then that's their problem if we do it's ours.

I'm not suggesting that Hurley is a better player than Watts, I'm suggesting that the club's recruiters should have had a closer look at his mental and physical toughness. The same could be said about Stauss, who we now learn was brought up in very privileged circumstances and may also lack the mental and physical toughness to make it. It seems we recruited Maric because he could kick straight; well you have to get the ball to be able to kick it. Morton has a frame that will never allow him to be big and strong so what position did we recruit him for?

We are not prepared to give someone a chance because he's mucked up a bit but we are prepared to recruit a player that is suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome.

No, what you need to realise is that if all 16 clubs choose not to draft a player, then clearly there can't be enormous wraps on him. Which then makes any argument that we should have taken him ridiculous.

Bagging the recruiting team after the fact is all too easy.

But we're not four years down the road. We finished last 18 months ago... We're really only two years in from our "bottom out". People forget this.

That's the easy way out, we are four years into a rebuild. Fact. Don't tell me other clubs didn't face tough times-they did & after four years they were back up the ladder punching again.

Oh please UTAH we all saw how tough they were on Thursday, Sylvia is so tough he knocks himself up running across the field.

I'm not defending Thursday night. It's not possible. No one could. And yes I agree we had no heart and didn't attack the football anywhere near hard enough.

I'm pointing out that we have not always recruited 'nice kids' as Robbie F said. Are we soft? Yep. have been for a long time now. But its not the recruitment teams fault.

I have to agree with you our recruiting has been average at best. We have been a bottom four team or middle of the ladder team for 10 years or more. No matter how you sugar coat it we don't have the personnel to be a top 4 or even top 8 team. Let's look at our recruiting:

2004 Bate Dunn, Newton

2005 Jones, Buckley, Bartram

2006 Frawley, Pettard, Garland

2007 Morton, Maric

2008 Watts, Blease, Strauss, Bennell, Jetta, Jurrah

2009 Scully, Trengove, Gysberts, Bail, Gawn Fitzpatrick Joel MacDonald

Jones, Garland, Frawley, Trengove, Gysberts, Bartram, Morton, Bennell, Bail and Jurrah played against West Coast. Scully would have likely played if fit.

Now how many of these players are A Graders - Nil. Scully, Trengove and Frawley may get there. (Dustin Martin is probably already there). How many are going to make top AFL players?.

Some of these players have already left the club or are playing VFL.

In 2008 for example we picked Strauss at pick 19, Bennell at 35 and Jetta at 51. In between these picks other clubs picked Shuey, Ballantyne, Trengove, McKernan, Suban, Zaharakis, Dayne Beams, Hannebery, Roughhead, Liam Anthony,Redden, Ash Smith, Rhys Stanley, Sloane.

Rockliff who trained with us at Casey in the pre-season was picked in the pre-season draft by Brisbane.

We do not have good depth. We have too many light-bodied prima donnas. A poor goal-to-line. No strong KP players apart from Frawley. We are mentally and physically weak and fall apart in the heat of battle.

The club has got it wrong and no matter what spin they put on it we have been given a golden chance to recruit well but have blown it.

By the time our skinny small and tall players have developed, free agency will allow them to leave.

I love this club but I am tired of the inconsistent crap we are dished up each week.

p.s I like the look Howe and Tom McDonald. They may add some glue to the brittle tooth picks we have.

Hindsight recruiting at its best there Theo.

Interesting that you name Jones in there. Jones was a ready made player and made a good impact in his first year and everyone loved him, but has stagnated recently.

Do people not think that the same could happen to Darling?

As for your comment about Rockliff. Yes he trained with us. But we used that pick on Jurrah. Which would you prefer?

I do agree with you about us physically and mentally weak.

No, what you need to realise is that if all 16 clubs choose not to draft a player, then clearly there can't be enormous wraps on him. Which then makes any argument that we should have taken him ridiculous.

Bagging the recruiting team after the fact is all too easy.

No what you need to realise that a good recruiter doesn't follow the pack he leads it, a good recruiter given the opportunity to take the best in the land first up shouldn't blow it.

As I said I don't care what the other clubs do we are talking about our club here and we have let some absolute gems slip through our grasp and we've recruited some, at best second tier players in their place. The recruiters at Melbourne don't get paid to listen to other clubs and see what they think, they get paid to spot the best talent. We recruited Gawn who had just gone through knee reconstruction and Fitzpatrick, now playing Casey seconds, who had chronic fatigue and hasn't shown a lot to date. we recruited Strauss because he can kick but did we work out if he could get the ball in the first place? We recruited Watts and now find out, in his words, that he doesn't get upset if we lose, Pardon!!!

This just goes on and on and maybe it's because you can always find a reason why you got beat, our supporters are god at that.

I'm not defending Thursday night. It's not possible. No one could. And yes I agree we had no heart and didn't attack the football anywhere near hard enough.

I'm pointing out that we have not always recruited 'nice kids' as Robbie F said. Are we soft? Yep. have been for a long time now. But its not the recruitment teams fault.

Then pray tell who's is it?

We have a player like Jones who is as tough as nails but unfortunately he can't play top class football, then we have Strauss, Bennell, Morton etc. who all have great skills but are as soft as warm butter. How did all these players get to the club?

They were recruited by the recruiting department, buck stops there.

Then pray tell who's is it?

We have a player like Jones who is as tough as nails but unfortunately he can't play top class football, then we have Strauss, Bennell, Morton etc. who all have great skills but are as soft as warm butter. How did all these players get to the club?

They were recruited by the recruiting department, buck stops there.

Those players you mention would quickly toughen up with the right coach.

Then pray tell who's is it?

We have a player like Jones who is as tough as nails but unfortunately he can't play top class football, then we have Strauss, Bennell, Morton etc. who all have great skills but are as soft as warm butter. How did all these players get to the club?

They were recruited by the recruiting department, buck stops there.

Some on this site have been making excuses for these soft skilled players for a long time

A better coach may have advised his recruiting department on the type of player required

The whole football department should be held accountable

Oh BTW not just Malthouse finishing his contract the whole Collingwood footy department is out of contract

Hmmmmm makes you wonder

I'm not defending Thursday night. It's not possible. No one could. And yes I agree we had no heart and didn't attack the football anywhere near hard enough.

I'm pointing out that we have not always recruited 'nice kids' as Robbie F said. Are we soft? Yep. have been for a long time now. But its not the recruitment teams fault.

Yes, I'm afraid it is.

I never mentioned his school, I mentioned his privileged background and that was information that was released by the club after they sent him up to Liam Jurrah's home town for a reality check.

I've probably followed this club longer than two of you lifetimes and I've seen it all, Flags, Spoons, almost winless seasons and crap sides, still I come back year after year to support the club.

I've had plenty of good things to say about the club too but I don't have my head up my ass and if something's wrong I'll point it out. For years I sat back and clapped all the things the club did and never questioned them but not any more I'm sick to death of watching the same crap served up year after bloody year.

Thanks RF, i was referring to James school as was a main point on another thread relating to his softness and ability to succeed coming from a privileged back ground, yes you probably have been following the club for two of my life times, well done...., but that does not mean you know any more than me or anybody else for that matter, get over yourself.

Your opinion is valid, although i would like to give players more than 2 years to show they can make it, especially as James was showing good signs recently in the VFL. You are also right that both perspectives are needed, it is just sometimes not just you but many people seem to not give time to players, and right them off seemingly.

That's the easy way out, we are four years into a rebuild. Fact. Don't tell me other clubs didn't face tough times-they did & after four years they were back up the ladder punching again.

I'm not excusing our performances so far this year or taking the easy way out. But ignoring where we've been as recently as 2009 is ridiculous.

Carlton made their first final three years after finishing last. St Kilda four. Geelong three years after their superdraft of 2001 - oh, and they also missed the finals in 2006 altogether before starting their assault on the top four in 07.

Hawthorn bottomed out twice in 2001 and 2004 before they made their first finals series in 2007 - a full six years after drafting the guys like Hodge and Mitchell who led them to the 2008 flag. In many ways, we are a lot like Hawthorn who lacked leadership in the early 2000s and didn't fire until those guys hit their mid 20s.

I'm not saying we should be waiting six or seven years for a finals appearance or a tilt at the flag but we are coming from a lot further back than most of these other sides. Don't kid yourself into thinking we're further advanced than we are.

In the meantime though, we should at least expect that our players will put their head over the ball and have a real crack. Something that's been missing in pretty much every game this year.

Then pray tell who's is it?

Coaches obviously.

Coaches obviously.

So the coaches recruit the players do they?

What does the recruiting department do then?

Is it the players we pick OR what we do with them once we pick them??

Is it the players we pick OR what we do with them once we pick them??

It's a bit of both, look at how Grimes is playing now compared to how we know he can play. Have we ever got the best out of Sylvia, I doubt it.

I think the players are confused, playing a game style that is no longer relevant and unsustainable, we don't have players with enough ability to play the highly skilled game plan that we are trying to play at the moment.

Is it the players we pick OR what we do with them once we pick them??

A very interesting topic this one...How well have our experienced players been coached (and pushed to achieve) over the years?

I'm not excusing our performances so far this year or taking the easy way out. But ignoring where we've been as recently as 2009 is ridiculous.

Carlton made their first final three years after finishing last. St Kilda four. Geelong three years after their superdraft of 2001 - oh, and they also missed the finals in 2006 altogether before starting their assault on the top four in 07.

Hawthorn bottomed out twice in 2001 and 2004 before they made their first finals series in 2007 - a full six years after drafting the guys like Hodge and Mitchell who led them to the 2008 flag. In many ways, we are a lot like Hawthorn who lacked leadership in the early 2000s and didn't fire until those guys hit their mid 20s.

I'm not saying we should be waiting six or seven years for a finals appearance or a tilt at the flag but we are coming from a lot further back than most of these other sides. Don't kid yourself into thinking we're further advanced than we are.

In the meantime though, we should at least expect that our players will put their head over the ball and have a real crack. Something that's been missing in pretty much every game this year.

All fair points Mate, and you could turn out to be right. But personally i think you are letting the MFC off the hook just a little bit.

No what you need to realise that a good recruiter doesn't follow the pack he leads it, a good recruiter given the opportunity to take the best in the land first up shouldn't blow it.

As I said I don't care what the other clubs do we are talking about our club here and we have let some absolute gems slip through our grasp and we've recruited some, at best second tier players in their place. The recruiters at Melbourne don't get paid to listen to other clubs and see what they think, they get paid to spot the best talent. We recruited Gawn who had just gone through knee reconstruction and Fitzpatrick, now playing Casey seconds, who had chronic fatigue and hasn't shown a lot to date. we recruited Strauss because he can kick but did we work out if he could get the ball in the first place? We recruited Watts and now find out, in his words, that he doesn't get upset if we lose, Pardon!!!

This just goes on and on and maybe it's because you can always find a reason why you got beat, our supporters are god at that.

OK, I'm losing faith in your ability to think.

If all the other recruiters didn't take him first time around (and I'm still talking about Darling here) then what difference would it make if we had Prendergast or anyone else? Clearly the consensus was not that Darling was 'the best in the land'. Otherwise he would have been taken by someone. He wasn't. That's because, at the time (read that bit again), he wasn't. OK?

Further, you're insinuating that our recruitment team didn't do its homework. Sorry, I don't buy that. Do you have any evidence at all that they picked Strauss without knowing if he could get the ball? Of course you don't. Clearly at the moment he's struggling, and it doesn't look like we made a good choice with pick 17, but it's BP's job to do his homework on players, so saying he didn't do that is just silly.

Then pray tell who's is it?

We have a player like Jones who is as tough as nails but unfortunately he can't play top class football, then we have Strauss, Bennell, Morton etc. who all have great skills but are as soft as warm butter. How did all these players get to the club?

They were recruited by the recruiting department, buck stops there.

You're implying the recruitment team is completely separate from the coaching staff. Have you considered the possibility that the coaches have a say in who comes to the club?

We can't as yet say that our last few years recruiting has been poor. However it appears it could have been better. Maric and Strauss appear mistakes at this point. Blease was a real tragedy who could still make it although it appears less and less likely by the day. Both Grimes and Gysberts were excellent recruiting moves (at this stage). Although Darling was a miss Cook appears to have plenty of upside. All of Watts, Scully and Trengove appear to be future top players, with Scully the best chance to become elite(in my mind) Can anyone really say our recruiting has been as poor as Thursday's game was. The next big recruit needs to be a coach and a FD to go with him.

OK, I'm losing faith in your ability to think.

If all the other recruiters didn't take him first time around (and I'm still talking about Darling here) then what difference would it make if we had Prendergast or anyone else? Clearly the consensus was not that Darling was 'the best in the land'. Otherwise he would have been taken by someone. He wasn't. That's because, at the time (read that bit again), he wasn't. OK?

Further, you're insinuating that our recruitment team didn't do its homework. Sorry, I don't buy that. Do you have any evidence at all that they picked Strauss without knowing if he could get the ball? Of course you don't. Clearly at the moment he's struggling, and it doesn't look like we made a good choice with pick 17, but it's BP's job to do his homework on players, so saying he didn't do that is just silly.

You're implying the recruitment team is completely separate from the coaching staff. Have you considered the possibility that the coaches have a say in who comes to the club?

I'll ignore your personal insult, it says more about you than it does about me.

I believe I've explained my point to you but you aren't interested in it so what more can I say, apart from the fact that there are plenty of dumb recruiters out there that have recruited A grade players that we've considered not good enough. There is a post above that gives a couple of examples.

If you're happy with our recruiting over the last 4 years then what can I say, it speaks for itself I guess.

As for the recruiting of players, I would imagine that the coach would have input in to it,but the recruiting department are the ones that throw up the names for consideration, that clear enough for you?

Or do you think the Coach is on a plane every second day watching games to see who is the best available for the positions we are deficient in?

We can't as yet say that our last few years recruiting has been poor. However it appears it could have been better. Maric and Strauss appear mistakes at this point. Blease was a real tragedy who could still make it although it appears less and less likely by the day. Both Grimes and Gysberts were excellent recruiting moves (at this stage). Although Darling was a miss Cook appears to have plenty of upside. All of Watts, Scully and Trengove appear to be future top players, with Scully the best chance to become elite(in my mind) Can anyone really say our recruiting has been as poor as Thursday's game was. The next big recruit needs to be a coach and a FD to go with him.

This is a better take on the situation. Whilst it is too easy to say 'oh, Maric, Strauss and Morton have all failed to live up to expectations, therefore the recruiters suck', it is fair to say that we haven't received what we may have expected to receive from these players. They and the coaches take the majority of the blame here.

I'll ignore your personal insult, it says more about you than it does about me.

I believe I've explained my point to you but you aren't interested in it so what more can I say, apart from the fact that there are plenty of dumb recruiters out there that have recruited A grade players that we've considered not good enough. There is a post above that gives a couple of examples.

If you're happy with our recruiting over the last 4 years then what can I say, it speaks for itself I guess.

As for the recruiting of players, I would imagine that the coach would have input in to it,but the recruiting department are the ones that throw up the names for consideration, that clear enough for you?

Or do you think the Coach is on a plane every second day watching games to see who is the best available for the positions we are deficient in?

I've heard your point. I reject it. Yes, we have drafted players with high draft picks who have not developed into the stars that we may have expected them to be. I will not, though, say that the recruiters thus got it wrong. That conclusion cannot be drawn.

Yes, recruiters would throw up names. But again, the coaches will have more than a say when it comes to draft day and what we aim to get out of it.

We can't as yet say that our last few years recruiting has been poor. However it appears it could have been better. Maric and Strauss appear mistakes at this point. Blease was a real tragedy who could still make it although it appears less and less likely by the day. Both Grimes and Gysberts were excellent recruiting moves (at this stage). Although Darling was a miss Cook appears to have plenty of upside. All of Watts, Scully and Trengove appear to be future top players, with Scully the best chance to become elite(in my mind) Can anyone really say our recruiting has been as poor as Thursday's game was. The next big recruit needs to be a coach and a FD to go with him.

See this is where we have a problem, as you say, in your mind Scully is the best chance of becoming Elite, that's one player. We've suffered the humility of finishing at the bottom of the ladder a couple of times and being accused of tanking all for the sake of possibly one elite player.

Sydney have finished middle of the road and they picked up last years rising star. Collingwood has recruited as well or better than us over the last few years with some of the great talent they've picked up and yet they are consistently playing in finals.

How can we say we've done well?

I've heard your point. I reject it. Yes, we have drafted players with high draft picks who have not developed into the stars that we may have expected them to be. I will not, though, say that the recruiters thus got it wrong. That conclusion cannot be drawn.

Yes, recruiters would throw up names. But again, the coaches will have more than a say when it comes to draft day and what we aim to get out of it.

So the recruiters consistently recruit players that are not as good as they believed they would be, and none of them turn in to stars even though they have the pick of the crop, you've come to the conclusion that it's not their fault. I'd imagine most people on here would love you as their boss you certainly set the bar low.

I think we can end this discussion right there, you're delusional.

All fair points Mate, and you could turn out to be right. But personally i think you are letting the MFC off the hook just a little bit.

I can assure you I'm as gutted as anyone by how the team is performing right now and I expected a lot more but most of it is effort. Our leaders are simply nowhere near the calibre of those at some other clubs but I feel that if the team collectively had the right attitude, this wouldn't matter so much.

In any event, I hope our climb isn't as slow as history suggests it will be.