Where are we REALLY at right now ??

[Rogue 585]

We are amongst about 5 teams aiming for 8th.

We are not a good team and we be will shown to be so in games this year.

I don't really know why people thought we would suddenly be pushing the top 6.

Coll, Geel, Haw, Freo, Carl, and WB are way better than us, and I think StK is too (unsure). We are a lot closer to Brisbane than we are to the first 6 teams I mentioned.

"But rpfc, it's not the wins and losses but HOW we play."

Sure it is...

I also don't know why people were confident we'd make finals.

However, I think that even for those who are aiming for finals a tally of 2.5 wins from 4 games is within expectations. (I thought DemonWA summed it up pretty well).

Despite not being one who thought we would make finals and I am disappointed in how we've played, regardless of your disbelief at this thought.

2. The players are a bit confused by the game plan. I know this as a fact. This should be resolved quickly and is not acceptable. You can have a bad game plan but to have one the players haven't mastered is very average coaching.

Interesting comment. Mind sharing how you know this for a fact?

[deejammin' 2,181]

I would just put this up for discussion:

Better than us:

Collingwood

Geelong

Hawthorn

Fremantle

Carlton

WB ?

ST Kilda?

On a Par:

Essendon

Sydney

Adelaide ?

West Coast ?

Worse than us (should be):

North Melbourne ?

Brisbane

Gold Coast

Port Adelaide

Richmond

In this list Essendon and North have flipped from where I would think they would be preseason, I have put question marks next to teams that I believe could be in other categories (generally lower with the exeption of NM). Going on this list we should be in the hunt for the 8, however our form to date does not leave me particularly confident of beating many of the on a par sides, or the worse sides. This is where the improvement needs to come at the moment, the reality is we have shown that on our day we can match it with top sides, or at least for patches of games, my problem is the intensity and desire against 50/50 or lesser teams seems to be missing, and this should be where we improve this year... What do you reckon?

[dee-luded 2,959]

Connolly talks about getting games into players and when they hit the magical 100 games watch out because we will be in our premiership window. I don't believe it, we keep recruiting light bodied (ectomorph) types that will never bulk up to the point of competing with the top clubs. Even our tall players ie. Rivers, Garland, Cook, Watts, Fitzpatrick, Gawn will never intiimdate the opposition on size alone.

We really need some mentally strong, win at all costs types that have strong frames to build on (endomorph). Only then will the smaller players stand tall knowing thay have a few enforcers in the team. I really don't think we have the balance right. Connolly said on TAC Cup All-Stars last year on CH9 that Jack Fitzpatrick will be a great Melbourne player of the future. Yeah right.

I think we are a long way off the mark at present, although it may only take a few good recruits to make the balance right.

To me the recruiting over the last decade and more has been hit and miss and before you berate me on this comment why have we only played in one Grand final since 1964. Even in 2000 who thought we would beat Essendon. They blew us off the park because they were more aggressive, bigger and stronger.

In 2011 are we bigger and stronger and agressive, NO. Nothing much has changed in my eyes.

Just wait for the excuses from the Club when we don't make the top four in 2013-14.

"Berate you", I don't berate people, well I have when I've been attacked in person, out in the street. I don't think I come across as berating, I hope not, not my intention.

I've seen rebuilds before, and when the kids have got enough collective games under their belts with the strength, the change will happen rapidly. But at the moment we don't have enough players with the collective,,, age/games experience X strength, playing together, YET...

When we have Grimes, Martin, McKenzie, (early developer), Bail, Petterd. With less finely built players,,, we'll see a quicker transition,, but we need to fast track these skinny ones as they're mostly the classier ones. That's how they got through the U-18's and Draft, more on class rather than Strength. So we need to get games into them, which will slow us Now, but speed us longer term.

Thats why we are done with the List rebuild now, and now onto the development stage of teaching the kids and letting them find their heads. Blooding them... we're in transtion between Boys and Men.

[DemonWA 3,883]

I also think this is a great post DemonWa. We really are exactly where we should be at this stage but we must make significant improvements in the coming weeks to maintain our ladder position. Our next game against West Coast in perth i think is a must win. If were going to be a force we really should beat the spooners from last year especially when theyre missing their best player and all australian LeCras, Masten and Mitch Brown

agreed. IF we beat west coast at home in their current form we can deffinatley claim to be on the way up, which is what we'd all like to see. If we loose it shows that we're in a similar position to last year, still got a way to go, but this is by no means a disgrace IMO: West Coast are much stronger than they were last year. & if you believe Woosha, LeCras may well play next thursday. Apparently his recovery from the injury is going very well. When you throw in Cox, Glass & Embley in vintage form, plus the forward line of Lynch, Kennedy & Darling they are not the same side taht got the spoon last year, and who also beat us at the G!!

[sylvinator 96]

THERE IS NO EXCUSE THIS YEAR

Even though i'd love to make finals, there certainly are plenty of legitimate reasons why we shouldn't make finals this season.

The fact we are the second youngest and second most inexperienced side in the league (in front only of the lowly Gold Coast) should not be underestimated.

I'd like to win at least 10 games this season as a pass mark, whether that gets you 8th or 10th i'm not sure.

[H_T 3,032]

I would say were pretty close to being in the top 8 sides in the comp maybe just outside but really there is absolutely no excuse for us not to make the finals this year when you look at our draw and some other aspects.

- We play 17/22 games in Victoria.

- We play Collingwood, St Kilda, Geelong, Essendon, Adelaide, Fremantle and Western Bulldogs and our bogey team North only once.

- We play Gold Coast, Richmond, West Coast (ignore the hype theyve only just beaten North and Adelaide) and Port all twice (that really should be 8 wins)

- At this stage we really only have Tom Scully injured out of our best 22 and hes due back mid season.

- We were in the hunt for a finals berth last year and just missed out after a poor last 3 games.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE THIS YEAR!!We have been down for long enough (4 years now) where we have rebuilt our list, Football department and structures from the bottom up. Our kids Trengove, Scully, Grimes, Jurrah, Gysberts, Frawley, Morton etc have all played enough footy together now to understand each others games and have shown they can perform well on the big stage and play really good football (Collingwood games last year,Bulldogs game etc) As i keep saying we have to be realistic as to where were at but we cant keep making excuses when we play poorly or dont put a solid 4 quarter effort together. Thats why im still not sold on Bailey and his coaching staff as i think we have great kids and some really solid experienced players (Green, Sylvia, Beamer, Russian etc) and we should really be becoming a force in the comp again. The finals is our pass mark for this year.

1. Firstly, last year is different. Different circumstances, different personnel/players, different dynamics to this year, different opposition.

2. Secondly, you've totally forgotten we have an important player in Jordie McKenzie on the sidelines overcoming a troublesome injury. And he is best 22.

3. Thirdly and finally, without a knowledgable understanding of the confines of our playing list (see my points one and two) and where it truly is at (state of infancy), how on earth you can conclude such statements as..."THERE IS NO EXCUSE THIS YEAR"....and "should really be becoming a force in the comp" at this early stage is beyond me.

Last but not least, if you believe that "finals is our pass mark" for this year, you need to understand the clubs position and the nature of our list a bit better.

[Weedster 174]

This is how I see it, as to where we are at.

2007 > list sort

2008 > List build

2009 > List build

2010 > List build/development

2011 > development/ladder improvement

2012 > development/ladder improvement

2013 > Top 6

Last year we had a list with some players who were as good as they could be. The older of this group finished at the club.

Rollout 2011, and we have a more talented list, but mostly kids now with few games under their collective belts. Compare to GC suns who have as much talent, but little experience. We're ahead of them by about 2 years.

Essendon have not scraped the barrell of their list, have many topline players in Fletcher, Hille, Watson, Ryder, and a young champ in Hurley... All Big Bodied players who can impose on the games.

Our most senior players are in order of most games played > Green, Davey, Moloney, Rivers, Sylvia, Jamar, Macdonald, Jones, then Bartram on 84 games. We are coming off scraping the bottom of our barrell and hitting rock bottom, are now in teaching mode for the basic AFL skills onfield.

I think we'll finish around 9th.

Thats not too bad with so many kids being brought on together in one group. Some are timid types. When they click, it will be quick, as they're learning together with around the same No of games played.

So after 7 years you would be happy to finish top 6 ! Give me a spell - that's exactly the soft acceptance of mediocrity that drags us down ! We have won 2 games against the teams expected to finish bottom 2 - we have every right to expect more this year - DB should quite rightly be expected to deliver or move aside B)

[Akum 2,660]

To put it bluntly, our team performance needs to improve, and improve a lot, over what we've seen so far. If it doesn't improve, if the past 4 weeks is the best we're gonna do this year, we'll struggle to get anywhere near last year's standard. And I'd find it hard to believe that anybody would be satisfied with that. I fully expect us to improve, but I'm starting to brace myself for the possibility that we might not.

[dee-luded 2,959]

So after 7 years you would be happy to finish top 6 ! Give me a spell - that's exactly the soft acceptance of mediocrity that drags us down ! We have won 2 games against the teams expected to finish bottom 2 - we have every right to expect more this year - DB should quite rightly be expected to deliver or move aside B)

We've just entering the fourth year of the rebuild. The second half of '07 was about sifting through the existing list, and starting the clean out.

So, that's, '08/ '09/ '010/ and now we're here, 4 games into '011... There will be 2 years of developing these kids we've recruited, and settling the Side.

You can whinge all you like, but thats what it will take. Their experiences can be fastracked but not the bodies growthrates. You can only build bodies as much as they will build themselves, weights and growth products are used to best advantage. Like all clubs.

[plg31ni 2]

1. Firstly, last year is different. Different circumstances, different personnel/players, different dynamics to this year, different opposition.

2. Secondly, you've totally forgotten we have an important player in Jordie McKenzie on the sidelines overcoming a troublesome injury. And he is best 22.

3. Thirdly and finally, without a knowledgable understanding of the confines of our playing list (see my points one and two) and where it truly is at (state of infancy), how on earth you can conclude such statements as..."THERE IS NO EXCUSE THIS YEAR"....and "should really be becoming a force in the comp" at this early stage is beyond me.

Last but not least, if you believe that "finals is our pass mark" for this year, you need to understand the clubs position and the nature of our list a bit better.

Sorry, but we have been listening to similar types of scenarios and "excuses" as these for faaaaaar tooooo looong !!! It's good you are such a dedicated supporter of the club and are trying hard to convince yourself and others that your points are legitimate, BUT we do not have anymore acceptable excuses left in the bag of excuses...Simple as that !!! 1964 Last Premiership... Please !!!!! If we keep accepting mediocrity and half hearted performances then we are just as at fault as the FD and people who over the years have failed us so badly...NO more why we shouldn't be expected to make the finals.. I have heard this for too long. We have had everything "go our way" with draft picks etc and favourable draws THIS year in particular. Why are some of our long term supporters so accepting of these past failures ???. As I stated earlier, Why have teams like Sydney, St Kilda, Western Bulldogs, Hawthorn, etc etc. been in similar situations an flownd past us to play in finals and made us look "second Rate?

' Let's be brutally honest with ourselves PLEASE !!! We have the best list we have had for years and we MUST do something with it... !!! Believe me, I LOVE THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB, but I cannot accept any more comments like "we will develop into a finals contender in 2013" Give me a break !!!It will NOT happen if we do NOT make a bigger effort this year. We are in the 8 !!! Big Deal !! We beat Brisbane, Gold Coast and drew with the Swans.. We HAVE to beat better teams. We have to win 3 of the next 4 games or we are BACK where we have been for years !! I am very passionate about that !!

[Weedster 174]

Sorry, but we have been listening to similar types of scenarios and "excuses" as these for faaaaaar tooooo looong !!! It's good you are such a dedicated supporter of the club and are trying hard to convince yourself and others that your points are legitimate, BUT we do not have anymore acceptable excuses left in the bag of excuses...Simple as that !!! 1964 Last Premiership... Please !!!!! If we keep accepting mediocrity and half hearted performances then we are just as at fault as the FD and people who over the years have failed us so badly...NO more why we shouldn't be expected to make the finals.. I have heard this for too long. We have had everything "go our way" with draft picks etc and favourable draws THIS year in particular. Why are some of our long term supporters so accepting of these past failures ???. As I stated earlier, Why have teams like Sydney, St Kilda, Western Bulldogs, Hawthorn, etc etc. been in similar situations an flownd past us to play in finals and made us look "second Rate?

' Let's be brutally honest with ourselves PLEASE !!! We have the best list we have had for years and we MUST do something with it... !!! Believe me, I LOVE THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB, but I cannot accept any more comments like "we will develop into a finals contender in 2013" Give me a break !!!It will NOT happen if we do NOT make a bigger effort this year. We are in the 8 !!! Big Deal !! We beat Brisbane, Gold Coast and drew with the Swans.. We HAVE to beat better teams. We have to win 3 of the next 4 games or we are BACK where we have been for years !! I am very passionate about that !!

SO TRUE !! Statements about what MIGHT happen by 2013 are plainly pathetic - Good clubs make things happen B)

[rpfc 28,046]

SO TRUE !! Statements about what MIGHT happen by 2013 are plainly pathetic - Good clubs make things happen B)

We're not wizards...

[H_T 3,032]

Sorry, but we have been listening to similar types of scenarios and "excuses" as these for faaaaaar tooooo looong !!! It's good you are such a dedicated supporter of the club and are trying hard to convince yourself and others that your points are legitimate, BUT we do not have anymore acceptable excuses left in the bag of excuses...Simple as that !!! 1964 Last Premiership... Please !!!!! If we keep accepting mediocrity and half hearted performances then we are just as at fault as the FD and people who over the years have failed us so badly...NO more why we shouldn't be expected to make the finals.. I have heard this for too long. We have had everything "go our way" with draft picks etc and favourable draws THIS year in particular. Why are some of our long term supporters so accepting of these past failures ???. As I stated earlier, Why have teams like Sydney, St Kilda, Western Bulldogs, Hawthorn, etc etc. been in similar situations an flownd past us to play in finals and made us look "second Rate?

' Let's be brutally honest with ourselves PLEASE !!! We have the best list we have had for years and we MUST do something with it... !!! Believe me, I LOVE THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB, but I cannot accept any more comments like "we will develop into a finals contender in 2013" Give me a break !!!It will NOT happen if we do NOT make a bigger effort this year. We are in the 8 !!! Big Deal !! We beat Brisbane, Gold Coast and drew with the Swans.. We HAVE to beat better teams. We have to win 3 of the next 4 games or we are BACK where we have been for years !! I am very passionate about that !!

Take a breath.

Capital letters and exclamation marks must surely stand for something. (ref: mfcss)

If you read the post of mine you replied to slowly and carefully enough, it should sink in. And daisycutter this is not mfcfs if you're reading this.

Finally, finals is not the be all and end all this year. It's not about wins and losses as such. If we do make the 8, all well and good, but it's the development and games of continuity of our young hopefuls that is more important.

I could go on, but I've been here before so many times...reasoning. I'll finish by saying I don't accept past failures - as you put. I'm as passionate as any, I understand where our list has come from in the past 3-4 years and I'm looking forward to the club building something great that will give our best possible chance of winning a fracking flag. That's what I want, not some miracle finals berth this year that won't result in winning the flag this year.

[Akum 2,660]

1. Firstly, last year is different. Different circumstances, different personnel/players, different dynamics to this year, different opposition.

2. Secondly, you've totally forgotten we have an important player in Jordie McKenzie on the sidelines overcoming a troublesome injury. And he is best 22.

3. Thirdly and finally, without a knowledgable understanding of the confines of our playing list (see my points one and two) and where it truly is at (state of infancy), how on earth you can conclude such statements as..."THERE IS NO EXCUSE THIS YEAR"....and "should really be becoming a force in the comp" at this early stage is beyond me.

Last but not least, if you believe that "finals is our pass mark" for this year, you need to understand the clubs position and the nature of our list a bit better.

So HT, if the team's performance doesn't improve over what we've seen so far this year, would you be OK with that, for reasons such as these?

[H_T 3,032]

So HT, if the team's performance doesn't improve over what we've seen so far this year, would you be OK with that, for reasons such as these?

Over what we have seen so far this year ? No, I wouldn't be "Ok" with that. I'd expect some improvement from what we've seen so far THIS year - but that doesn't necessarily indicate to me that will confirm a finals berth. We will face stiffer opposition than the last couple of weeks.

I would expect this because I can see some scope for improvement in the midfield later this year. Namely the inclusion of McKenzie and perhaps Scully and more games into Gysberts.

[old55 22,773]

Where are we?

Overall we're in a very good place - we've got the best list we've had in my memory. Gysberts and Tapscott have shown they are quality and Bail has found a niche. Wonna and Martin have stepped back up. Moloney, Rivers, Jones and Bartram are playing good footy. Jamar is a rock. We've got Scully and McKenzie that are automatic selections to come in. Cook and Blease are showing good signs at Casey and we've got Viney in the wings.

We've got star potential in Frawley, Scully, Trengove, Gysberts, Watts, Jurrah, Morton. I can see 25+ premiership quality players, our bottom 6 will be strong and there'll be competition for spots. We've finally got decent facilities and we can spend some money on out FD. It's going to take time and good direction but we're on the verge of an era.

[H_T 3,032]

Good outlook old..

[rpfc 28,046]

Where are we?

Overall we're in a very good place - we've got the best list we've had in my memory. Gysberts and Tapscott have shown they are quality and Bail has found a niche. Wonna and Martin have stepped back up. Moloney, Rivers, Jones and Bartram are playing good footy. Jamar is a rock. We've got Scully and McKenzie that are automatic selections to come in. Cook and Blease are showing good signs at Casey and we've got Viney in the wings.

We've got star potential in Frawley, Scully, Trengove, Gysberts, Watts, Jurrah, Morton. I can see 25+ premiership quality players, our bottom 6 will be strong and there'll be competition for spots. We've finally got decent facilities and we can spend some money on out FD. It's going to take time and good direction but we're on the verge of an era.

Yes, but Hawthorn made us look bad!!

We haven't copied Collingwood well enough!!

Hird!!

[Sir Why You Little 36,596]

Yes, but Hawthorn made us look bad!!

We haven't copied Collingwood well enough!!

Hird!!

Classic Response!!!! Hehehehe

[old55 22,773]

We have to do the devlopment time but there's no time for f'ing around. GC are going to have pick 4 this year and pick 1 & 3 in 2012. They are going to have an awesome list and from 2018 will start dominating the competition for 4-5 years. We need to win a flag before then. Free Agency is not going to help us in the long term. It's win a flag before 2018 or never see one in my lifetime.

[Sir Why You Little 36,596]

We have to do the devlopment time but there's no time for f'ing around. GC are going to have pick 4 this year and pick 1 & 3 in 2012. They are going to have an awesome list and from 2018 will start dominating the competition for 4-5 years. We need to win a flag before then. Free Agency is not going to help us in the long term. It's win a flag before 2018 or never see one in my lifetime.

Agreed.

[Deetective Sgt. Taggert 382]

We have to do the devlopment time but there's no time for f'ing around. GC are going to have pick 4 this year and pick 1 & 3 in 2012. They are going to have an awesome list and from 2018 will start dominating the competition for 4-5 years. We need to win a flag before then. Free Agency is not going to help us in the long term. It's win a flag before 2018 or never see one in my lifetime.

Yes the next few years are critical, although I don't feel threatened by GC. They will probably sneak a premiership in at some stage but I think they too will face raids from other clubs once the money runs out or end up with salary caps issues like Essendon post 2000-2001.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

The world is in desperate need of a sarcasm font.

[jayceebee31 697]

Bailey's a genius...

He's been slowly working the players into a position to play 4 quarters. He knows the sub rule is going to kill off lists that start the season in 5th gear with their foot flat to the floor, like Essendon and Geelong. Bailey is the Bart Cummings of Aussie Rules. He's going to have the dees up and firing in the middle and latter part of the year where it counts, with a next-to-full list, with plenty of energy, while the other sides wilt under the pressure of the new sub rule...

;)

fair comments-I agree and when we get McKenzie and Scully back then that will help greatly also.

Edited April 21, 2011 by jayceebee31

[H_T 3,032]

The world is in desperate need of a sarcasm font.

emoticon.