That's a very simple way of looking at things.

Thank you for your input.

Football's a simple game complicated by management consultants and KPI's.

Football's a simple game complicated by management consultants and KPI's.

I don't think that's true, KPMG did a study a found that...

Honestly, Robbie. Wins and losses are KPIs too. If legislatively important ones...

I think there is value in some metrics.

How much value?

It's up to each of us to analyse.

And I have hardly done any analysis of this year KPIs yet, and have repeatedly said they are bordering on meaningless until more of the season has unfolded.

I don't think that's true, KPMG did a study a found that...

Honestly, Robbie. Wins and losses are KPIs too. If legislatively important ones...

I think there is value in some metrics.

How much value?

It's up to each of us to analyse.

And I have hardly done any analysis of this year KPIs yet, and have repeatedly said they are bordering on meaningless until more of the season has unfolded.

I'll tell you one very important KPI, our season was over after 5 rounds this year when most of us expected some sort of improvement. Other clubs that were behind us are now in front of us and pulling away, you can use statistics to justify anything you want but at the end of the day performance is what counts. You can stick your process it's useless if the players don't know what it is.

Winning/Losing that is the only thing that counts.

I'll tell you one very important KPI, our season was over after 5 rounds this year when most of us expected some sort of improvement. Other clubs that were behind us are now in front of us and pulling away, you can use statistics to justify anything you want but at the end of the day performance is what counts. You can stick your process it's useless if the players don't know what it is.

Winning/Losing that is the only thing that counts.

I'm not justifying anything or anyone.

I'm disappointed and so are the KPIs. At the minute they show a stalling of the team, and an extreme inability to show any sort of consistent performance.

That's all I am willing to read into them at the minute.

And winning/losing is important.

But whether you like it or not - everything has a process, and all clubs.

Even Collingwood would talk about the process - the things they have to do/complete/compete in - to win games of footy.

So I suppose you're right that Winning/Losing is all that matters, but the process decides whether you will win or lose.

I find value in measuring that process, and I will let others decide with their 'mouses' whether they do too.

I'm not justifying anything or anyone.

I'm disappointed and so are the KPIs. At the minute they show a stalling of the team, and an extreme inability to show any sort of consistent performance.

That's all I am willing to read into them at the minute.

And winning/losing is important.

But whether you like it or not - everything has a process, and all clubs.

Even Collingwood would talk about the process - the things they have to do/complete/compete in - to win games of footy.

So I suppose you're right that Winning/Losing is all that matters, but the process decides whether you will win or lose.

I find value in measuring that process, and I will let others decide with their 'mouses' whether they do too.

Unfortunately there are too many Melbourne supporters that will point their mouse towards anything, real or otherwise, that indicates the team is improving, despite what their eyes show them..

Keep up the good work.

Unfortunately there are too many Melbourne supporters that will point their mouse towards anything, real or otherwise, that indicates the team is improving, despite what their eyes show them..

Keep up the good work.

Yes, this thread is Exhibit A in the great Melbourne Supporters Malaise...

I think we are arguing past each other here.

I don't believe you have a problem with my KPIs or metrics in general - you are just annoyed at the low bar some fans give the team and their resulting satisfaction with the teams mediocre performance.

I doubt many would disagree with that sentiment.

I certainly don't. I hate the 'near enough is good enough attitude' of many Dees fans. Look at the revisionism of the Daniher years - we were in the top 4 deep into 04, 05, and 06 and didn't have the mental fortitude to get anywhere near a Prelim. And yet, fans fondly remember the 'relevance' of the Daniher years.

This thread isn't about small wins for the team, it's about measuring their progress (if there is any).

Oh, and you keep up the good work too.

I would use the winking emoticon if I used emoticons and I wasn't so sure you were being vociferously flippant...

We can recruit a certain player or players to win the flag in 2015 then find when we get there the players we have recruited for our run at that years flag are no longer the types suited to the current trend of play. All this 5 year plan is plain [censored], you have to go for it every year and stop trying to justify our shithouseness with all these excuses and KPI crap.

Rubbish. If this were the case then i suppose you think we should recruit Brendon Fevola at the end of the year? After all it will give us a better shot at winning the flag next year. But then in a few years time we will lose him to retirement and be left with Cook who has not had enough experience to deal with the big league.

Do you think we should have kept Yze, White, White, Travis Johnstone, Robbo, Whelan and Wheatley instead of bottoming out and bringing in young players?

After all, they would have given us a much better chance at winning a flag over the last few years.

And you state that winning and losing is the only thing that matters and that KPI's are crap.

But how do you win games? Do you just win them? No. You win the KPI's which then win you the games.

Rubbish. If this were the case then i suppose you think we should recruit Brendon Fevola at the end of the year? After all it will give us a better shot at winning the flag next year. But then in a few years time we will lose him to retirement and be left with Cook who has not had enough experience to deal with the big league.

Do you think we should have kept Yze, White, White, Travis Johnstone, Robbo, Whelan and Wheatley instead of bottoming out and bringing in young players?

After all, they would have given us a much better chance at winning a flag over the last few years.

And you state that winning and losing is the only thing that matters and that KPI's are crap.

But how do you win games? Do you just win them? No. You win the KPI's which then win you the games.

Collingwood won a flag by recruiting mature players in Jolly, Brown and Balll and adding them to a pretty good nucleus of players already at the club, if you look through their side you'll find they're not all that old either. If I thought recruiting Fevola was the last piece in the puzzle then I'd go for it,wouldn't you? Cook may or may not be a good player but if we could win a flag with Fevola I'd sacrifice him in a second.

As for the other players that is absurd they were all soft as butter and we would never win a flag with them as the nucleus of our side of course I was glad to see the end of them. What did we do though we replaced them with another group of softcocks so we are back to square one. We have a couple of young kids who put their head over the ball like Evans and Nicholson but watch them get replaced and watch Morton and Bennell continue to get a game.

As for the rest football is not some sort of management course it's a game played on instinct and not all footballers are smart enough to understand the complexities of management process.

As for the rest football is not some sort of management course it's a game played on instinct and not all footballers are smart enough to understand the complexities of management process.

I reckon there are a bunch of simple 'KPIs' that UTAH could have been referring to, like tackling, contested possessions, clearances, etc. It might be that not all footballers are smart enough to understand the complexities of management process but most understand winning the footy at stoppages, tackling counts, etc.

As for the rest football is not some sort of management course it's a game played on instinct and not all footballers are smart enough to understand the complexities of management process.

You're probably right from that perspective.

But from a football management perspective, Leigh Matthews has repeatedly stated that their were two significant KPI's that more often than not (I think he used a figure of at least 80-90% of the time), that if you were in front on the number of both contested possessions and tackling, you were more than likely the clear winner.

I reckon that all footballers would be smart enough on the understanding of these two non-complex KPI's alone.

Collingwood won a flag by recruiting mature players in Jolly, Brown and Balll and adding them to a pretty good nucleus of players already at the club, if you look through their side you'll find they're not all that old either. If I thought recruiting Fevola was the last piece in the puzzle then I'd go for it,wouldn't you? Cook may or may not be a good player but if we could win a flag with Fevola I'd sacrifice him in a second.

As for the other players that is absurd they were all soft as butter and we would never win a flag with them as the nucleus of our side of course I was glad to see the end of them. What did we do though we replaced them with another group of softcocks so we are back to square one. We have a couple of young kids who put their head over the ball like Evans and Nicholson but watch them get replaced and watch Morton and Bennell continue to get a game.

As for the rest football is not some sort of management course it's a game played on instinct and not all footballers are smart enough to understand the complexities of management process.

But you said we have to go for it every year. Recruiting mature players at the end of this year will give us a better shot at winning the flag next year. Therefore, by your reasoning, we should recruit mature players.

After all. According to you. 5 year plans are crap. We could find out in 5 years time that the game has changed and the young players we could have recruited this year will be redundant.

Imagine if this happened at the end of the Blues game.

Dean Bailey meets with Jim Stynes.

Jim says 'Dean, what happened?'

Dean - 'We lost. We didn't play with enough passion.'

Jim - 'But what areas did we lose in Dean? Did we lose the clearances?'

Dean - 'Don't worry about that Jim. Clearances are a KPI and they are crap. We lost. Next time we have to win. Thats all that matters.'

Jim - 'Dean, im worried about the inside 50's. What are you going to do about it?'

Dean - 'Your not getting it Jim. Inside 50's are another KPI. It's all [censored]. Besides they are footballers. They wont understand what your talking about. Next time i'll tell them to go out there and win after all thats all that matters.'

You're probably right from that perspective.

But from a football management perspective, Leigh Matthews has repeatedly stated that their were two significant KPI's that more often than not (I think he used a figure of at least 80-90% of the time), that if you were in front on the number of both contested possessions and tackling, you were more than likely the clear winner.

I reckon that all footballers would be smart enough on the understanding of these two non-complex KPI's alone.

A man after my own heart.

...14 mins after, to be precise

But you said we have to go for it every year. Recruiting mature players at the end of this year will give us a better shot at winning the flag next year. Therefore, by your reasoning, we should recruit mature players.

After all. According to you. 5 year plans are crap. We could find out in 5 years time that the game has changed and the young players we could have recruited this year will be redundant.

Imagine if this happened at the end of the Blues game.

Dean Bailey meets with Jim Stynes.

Jim says 'Dean, what happened?'

Dean - 'We lost. We didn't play with enough passion.'

Jim - 'But what areas did we lose in Dean? Did we lose the clearances?'

Dean - 'Don't worry about that Jim. Clearances are a KPI and they are crap. We lost. Next time we have to win. Thats all that matters.'

Jim - 'Dean, im worried about the inside 50's. What are you going to do about it?'

Dean - 'Your not getting it Jim. Inside 50's are another KPI. It's all [censored]. Besides they are footballers. They wont understand what your talking about. Next time i'll tell them to go out there and win after all thats all that matters.'

I thought you'd be intelligent to understand what I was saying; I guess not. Collingwood recruited those players because they were close to a flag now that's nowhere near what you were alluding to earlier was it?

You said: Rubbish. If this were the case then i suppose you think we should recruit Brendon Fevola at the end of the year? After all it will give us a better shot at winning the flag next year. But then in a few years time we will lose him to retirement and be left with Cook who has not had enough experience to deal with the big league.

Do you think we should have kept Yze, White, White, Travis Johnstone, Robbo, Whelan and Wheatley instead of bottoming out and bringing in young players?

After all, they would have given us a much better chance at winning a flag over the last few years.

I said: Collingwood won a flag by recruiting mature players in Jolly, Brown and Balll and adding them to a pretty good nucleus of players already at the club, if you look through their side you'll find they're not all that old either. If I thought recruiting Fevola was the last piece in the puzzle then I'd go for it, wouldnt you? Cook may or may not be a good player but if we could win a flag with Fevola I'd sacrifice him in a second.

As for the other players that is absurd they were all soft as butter and we would never win a flag with them as the nucleus of our side of course I was glad to see the end of them. What did we do though we replaced them with another group of softcocks so we are back to square one. We have a couple of young kids who put their head over the ball like Evans and Nicholson but watch them get replaced and watch Morton and Bennell continue to get a game.

Now I'm not suggesting that we can win a flag every year but we have to have the players develop a winning mentality and by worrying more about the periphery and less about winning is in my opinion counter productive.

Is it your view that the players be told they have to lift their tackle count by .25 each? Do you really think Jimmy would want to go in to the minor details of the game with the coach?

Is it your view that the players be told they have to lift their tackle count by .25 each? Do you really think Jimmy would want to go in to the minor details of the game with the coach?

When Bailey has a meeting with Jim to see how the team is progressing, then yes I imagine they talk about KPI's.

They don't just say 'Well Dean. Your not winning, therefore your doing a bad job. End of story'

Yes. KPI's are not the be all and end all. But they do give us 'some' indication of where we are winning, where we are improving and where we are losing.

I reckon we could go on like this for awhile. So i'm going to stop now. Feel free to have the last word if you like. I really like this thread. It shows an aspect of the game that i'm interested in, and I thank rpfc for spending time updating the stats. You don't like it? ok. We get that now. Lets not derail the topic any further.

Sorry to nag, but what about an update?

I'll tell you one very important KPI, our season was over after 5 rounds this year when most of us expected some sort of improvement. Other clubs that were behind us are now in front of us and pulling away, you can use statistics to justify anything you want but at the end of the day performance is what counts. You can stick your process it's useless if the players don't know what it is.

Winning/Losing that is the only thing that counts.

When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Season over eh? Maybe for you but not for me.

When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Season over eh? Maybe for you but not for me.

I suppose you were one of the ones that "popped the cork" after the Crows win and had a go at all those that were up in arms over our very mediocre performances up to that stage? What did you do the following week take a holiday from posting?

You happy with some of the garbage we've served up this year?

To his credit Bailey played two rookies and dropped a couple of perennial failures; that has certainly lifted the side and that is what we needed. You're a bit like Rono you wait to see which side the coin lands on before you make the call, well done. Actually he does in fact have the courage to stick his neck out and make an early call but you……

I am at peace with "some if the garbage we've served up this year."

We're a young team. Young teams put in those sorts of performances, no matter how much they disgust you.

They will happen again.

Even with Malthouse as coach they would happen.

You seem to expect some sort of football perfection from a group of inexperienced kids.

Your expectations are out of touch with reality.

I suppose you were one of the ones that "popped the cork" after the Crows win and had a go at all those that were up in arms over our very mediocre performances up to that stage? What did you do the following week take a holiday from posting?

You happy with some of the garbage we've served up this year?

To his credit Bailey played two rookies and dropped a couple of perennial failures; that has certainly lifted the side and that is what we needed. You're a bit like Rono you wait to see which side the coin lands on before you make the call, well done. Actually he does in fact have the courage to stick his neck out and make an early call but you……

What we needed was a competitive midfield with class and return of balance and leadership. It's the midfield stupid

and a bit of this...

The rookies have given some more run and blue collar competitiveness around the ground. But you can't underestimate the importance of McKenzie, Scully & Trengove - which together is what we have missed.

You happy with some of the garbage we've served up this year?

The same ridiculous and rhetorical question that you and your ilk pedal round here all the time as some kind of justification for your short-termism and myopia.

No-one has ever posted here that they're "happy" after a bad loss or mediocre performance.

The win against Essendon didn't just come out of nothing, it was built on development and work, albeit with little to show for it.

It's a process.

KPI

Contested Possession Differential

2010 > -1.2

2011 > 0.8

Syd: +34; Haw: -31; BL: +4; GC: +15; WCE: -15; Adel: 24; NM: -18; St K: 6; Carl: -26; Ess: 15

Inside 50 Differential

2010 > -7.2

2011 > -5.5

Syd: -4; Haw: -40; BL: +3; GC: +26; WCE: -29; Adel: 31; NM: -6; St K: -6; Carl: -15; Ess: -15

Clearance Differential

2010 > -2

2011 > 1.9

Syd: -6; Haw: -10; BL: +11; GC: +7; WCE: -6; Adel: 14; NM: +8; St K: 10; Carl: -9; Ess: 0

Turnover (Clanger) Differential

2010 >

2011 > 2

Syd: +3; Haw: +4; BL: +4; GC: -1; WCE:19; Adel: -2; NM: 0; St K: 6; Carl: -3; Ess: -10

Scores Against average

2010 > 89.6

2011 > 89.6

Syd: 84; Haw: 122; BL: 71; GC: 69; WCE: 106; Adel: 53; NM: 124; St K: 106; Carl: 93; Ess: 68

Percentage

2010 > 94.5

2011 > 102.6

Average Flag Core © players per game

2010 > 7.4

2011 > 7.7

Syd: 6; Haw: 7; BL: 9; GC: 9; WCE: 9; Adel: 8; NM: 6; St K: 7; Carl: 7; Ess: 9

Green KPIs means that we are maintaining or improving in that area, red will indicate any slippage.

Contested possies good, inside 50s a worry...

Analyse away.

I am at peace with "some if the garbage we've served up this year."

We're a young team. Young teams put in those sorts of performances, no matter how much they disgust you.

They will happen again.

Even with Malthouse as coach they would happen.

You seem to expect some sort of football perfection from a group of inexperienced kids.

Your expectations are out of touch with reality.

Are you serious?

I don't expect perfection, if i did I wouldn't follow Melbourne. What I expect is a 100% effort from those that represent the club, not some half assed capitulation at the first sign of pressure. If you are happy with that, and it seems you are, then you are easily pleased.

But you know what? I couldn't care if you are pleased or not it doesn't interest me, you seem to have an opinion on everything judging by the number of posts you've put up in the short space of time you've been on this board.

.

The same ridiculous and rhetorical question that you and your ilk pedal round here all the time as some kind of justification for your short-termism and myopia.

No-one has ever posted here that they're "happy" after a bad loss or mediocre performance.

The win against Essendon didn't just come out of nothing, it was built on development and work, albeit with little to show for it.

It's a process.

See post #123

Isn't it true (help me out) that we're the best converter of I50s to scores in the league atm?