Super sub from the past.

[angryfijian 25]

After watching the great You Tube clips from the Allen Jakovich thread, it reminded me of the great players that could easily slot into our current team and add so much leadership and structure to our young side e.g. Lyon, Stynes or Viney. So it got me thinking about the upcoming drafts (dominated by the Gold Coast), past champions returning to the club (off field) and the new super sub rule. As a hypothetical, if you could recruit one past player from MFC's rich history (disregarding injuries and based purely on their peak performances on the field) to be a super sub in our current list for the modern game. Who would it be?

For me it would be the Great Ox. He gives us the big bodied key forward we desperately need and the ability to go into the ruck (remember this exercise does not take into account what happened injury wise). The ultimate game changer and - Super Sub.

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

I guess this is a whimsical topic. The Ox was not far short of being as good as Wayne Carey before he done his knee. But I'd rather have him full time if so. I'd like a Rod Grinter as a super sub. Versatile as a defender or forward and for "extra special" duties as required.

[praha 11,236]

Coming off the bench, it would have to be someone that could have immediate impact on the ball, so I'd have to say (based on what I've seen in the 20 or so years I've been going to the football) either Sean Charles or The Ox. Charles at his best was just super. But personal problems and injuries hurt him. But he, along with Ox and Jakovich, provided me with some of my earliest (and best!) football memories.

[Toad33 57]

Robbie.

Why?

Played 'the modern game' 25 years before it was 'invented'.

Can play anywhere and on talls, shorts etc.

An on field leader in the true sense of the word. "I will lead, you follow". (Anyone who can captain the state team, and their own club at the same time, while it is sitting on the bottom of the ladder says volumes about the leadership qualities he possesses.

Elite ability to read the play and execute precise disposal on both sides of the body.

Proven goal kicker.

Go Dees

[Sir Why You Little 36,985]

Coming off the bench, it would have to be someone that could have immediate impact on the ball, so I'd have to say (based on what I've seen in the 20 or so years I've been going to the football) either Sean Charles or The Ox. Charles at his best was just super. But personal problems and injuries hurt him. But he, along with Ox and Jakovich, provided me with some of my earliest (and best!) football memories.

Sean Charles absolutely Rocked in that 94 final against Carlton. Wonder where he is now? It would be great if the club could get him back as a guest for a game, injuries cruelled his career sadly, he had talent to burn.

[e25 5]

Robbie Flower, no question.

You could just about end the thread here.

[praha 11,236]

Sean Charles absolutely Rocked in that 94 final against Carlton. Wonder where he is now? It would be great if the club could get him back as a guest for a game, injuries cruelled his career sadly, he had talent to burn.

I will never, EVER forget that game as long as I live. Growing up in the inner-city northern suburbs surrounded by Carlton and Collingwood supporters and as the ONLY Melbourne supporter in my primary school, it was SO amazing to go to school having been the 7th placed team that beat the 2nd place Carlton. It was my first ever final, and an amazing day. Will never forget the look on one Carlton supporter's face when we went 5 goals up in the last -- a big, long sigh, and then their face straight into their hands. It was a bit like this:

Ahhhhh

And that Lovell speckie on the MCC wing. Made back page of the Herald Sun the next day. Good times.

Edited October 19, 2010 by calabreseboy

[Sir Why You Little 36,985]

I will never, EVER forget that game as long as I live. Growing up in the inner-city northern suburbs surrounded by Carlton and Collingwood supporters and as the ONLY Melbourne supporter in my primary school, it was SO amazing to go to school having been the 7th placed team that beat the 2nd place Carlton. It was my first ever final, and an amazing day. Will never forget the look on one Carlton supporter's face when we went 5 goals up in the last -- a big, long sigh, and then their face straight into their hands. It was a bit like this:

And that Lovell speckie on the MCC wing. Made back page of the Herald Sun the next day. Good times.

Yes it was a beautiful day considering Carlton had made the Granny the year before. The MCC Members was going "Ape Droppings" during that game, not quite as mental as the 2000 Qualifier against Carlton but come from behind wins are always so sweet!!

Chopper Lovell was a gun, he never really got the Kudos i thought he deserved, a really good pick up.

Edited October 19, 2010 by why you little

[Fork 'em 6,983]

Flower by a mile . B)

Edited October 19, 2010 by Fork 'em

[Sir Why You Little 36,985]

Flower by a mile . B)

Correct, you couldn't pass up Flower except for maybe a young Ronald Dale, but i didn't see RDB. I saw Robbie's first game.

That clip is amazing, his balance was unsurpassed.

That is why he is in the "elite" category.

Edited October 19, 2010 by why you little

[Fork 'em 6,983]

Correct, you couldn't pass up Flower except for maybe a young Ronald Dale, but i didn't see RDB. I saw Robbie's first game.

I never saw Barassi either but was bought up watching Flower who who'd just purr with his awesomness .

Who wouldn't want him running through the middle of the ground now like the opening sequence in this clip .

As was stated above , was playing the modern game 30 years ago .

Edited October 19, 2010 by Fork 'em

[Guest Thomo]

Sean Charles absolutely Rocked in that 94 final against Carlton. Wonder where he is now? It would be great if the club could get him back as a guest for a game, injuries cruelled his career sadly, he had talent to burn.

Sean Charles is the most naturally gifted player I have seen in Melboune in 30 years. In my opinion had more talent than Robbie and The Ox. Big call I know. Would have loved to see him playing along side blokes like with Davey and Whelen helping him adjust to city life and supporting him through injuries.

Lucky it's a different world now and blokes like LJ are given the support that they need.

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

Sean Charles is the most naturally gifted player I have seen in Melboune in 30 years. In my opinion had more talent than Robbie and The Ox. Big call I know. Would have loved to see him playing along side blokes like with Davey and Whelen helping him adjust to city life and supporting him through injuries.

Lucky it's a different world now and blokes like LJ are given the support that they need.

But too hot and cold. His signature performances were too far apart. The best thing he ever done was crash into Wayne Carey and putting him out of action for a few months.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The Ox was not far short of being as good as Wayne Carey before he done his knee.

The Ox was a very talented footballer whose future was cruelled by knee injuries. After showing promise in 1991 to 1993, he blossomed in 1994. He could have been something. Unfortunately, we will never know. But at the end of 1994, he was on a trajectory but he was not in Carey's sphere. Carey dominated VFL/AFL football in the 1990s from his first season on. Ox was good but the Carey comparison is over hyped on this Forum.

My substitute based on the best player I have seen is the great Robbie Flower. And I would be arranging a substitute in the first 10 seconds of play to get him on the field on the MCC member wing and would not ever interchange him.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Sean Charles is the most naturally gifted player I have seen in Melboune in 30 years. In my opinion had more talent than Robbie and The Ox.

I would want a player that would perform not just have natural gifts as footballer. You are entitled to your opinion but I am not sure Charles showed enough that was better than what Flower showed in crud teams for 13 years.

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

The Ox was a very talented footballer whose future was cruelled by knee injuries. After showing promise in 1991 to 1993, he blossomed in 1994. He could have been something. Unfortunately, we will never know. But at the end of 1994, he was on a trajectory but he was not in Carey's sphere. Carey dominated VFL/AFL football in the 1990s from his first season on. Ox was good but the Carey comparison is over hyped on this Forum.

My substitute based on the best player I have seen is the great Robbie Flower. And I would be arranging a substitute in the first 10 seconds of play to get him on the field on the MCC member wing and would not ever interchange him.

Well, I said the OX wasn't far off being a Carey. The stats for 1994 showed they were very close, possesions, marks, goals and general impact on the game with Carey just ahead. The OX was developing fast. If he wasn't injured he could have surpassed Carey. If it was Carey who did the knee and not the Ox then we would be talking swapping legend status for the OX. As for Flower, an all time great player I agree but would lack the versatility to be a Super Sub type. He did play almost exclusively on the wing. I guess in the modern game he would be an outside midfielder.

Edited October 19, 2010 by america de cali

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Well, I said the OX wasn't far off being a Carey. The stats for 1994 showed they were very close, possesions, marks, goals and general impact on the game with Carey just ahead. The OX was developing fast. If he wasn't injured he could have surpassed Carey. If it was Carey who did the knee and not the Ox then we would be talking swapping legend status for the OX.

Dont let the stats fool you. North were already building a premiership around Carey. He was already a 4 year star in the VFL and one of the best around when Schwartz put in his stellar 1994. Its a case of coulda, woulda, shoulda for the Ox who we will never know what would have happen. A talented player on a rise when cruelled by injury. Nevertheless its an overwaxed comparison by posters here to quell the disappointment of the injury.

As for Flower, an all time great player I agree but would lack the versatility to be a Super Sub type. He did play almost exclusively on the wing. I guess in the modern game he would be an outside midfielder.

Could not be more wrong. Flower played all over the ground and starred. While the wing was his home, Barassi had him off the half back line. In his only finals series and in his final year , Flower was potent up forward. As a State player he played in a number of positions against the best and I recall him tearing Glendinning (at his peak) apart at CHB against WA and receiving BOG honours. With Flower's superior skill set he could have played and did anywhere (bar ruck)

[Red Sox 2]

The Ox was a very talented footballer whose future was cruelled by knee injuries. After showing promise in 1991 to 1993, he blossomed in 1994. He could have been something. Unfortunately, we will never know. But at the end of 1994, he was on a trajectory but he was not in Carey's sphere. Carey dominated VFL/AFL football in the 1990s from his first season on. Ox was good but the Carey comparison is over hyped on this Forum.

My substitute based on the best player I have seen is the great Robbie Flower. And I would be arranging a substitute in the first 10 seconds of play to get him on the field on the MCC member wing and would not ever interchange him.

Nice unbiased view there Rhino. I agree with what you say, the Ox of the headband early days and the Ox of the 94 finals series were different beasts. Unfortunately, so was the Ox after the knees.

Carey was blue chip all the way through. I guess people over hype Ox because his high point, the lead up and including the 94 finals series was such a devastating display by him.

If that was the level he was going to perform at consistently, he was comparable to Carey.

As for the super-sub - Flower or Tingay.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Demon Hill

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

Dont let the stats fool you. North were already building a premiership around Carey. He was already a 4 year star in the VFL and one of the best around when Schwartz put in his stellar 1994. Its a case of coulda, woulda, shoulda for the Ox who we will never know what would have happen. A talented player on a rise when cruelled by injury. Nevertheless its an overwaxed comparison by posters here to quell the disappointment of the injury.

Could not be more wrong. Flower played all over the ground and starred. While the wing was his home, Barassi had him off the half back line. In his only finals series and in his final year , Flower was potent up forward. As a State player he played in a number of positions against the best and I recall him tearing Glendinning (at his peak) apart at CHB against WA and receiving BOG honours. With Flower's superior skill set he could have played and did anywhere (bar ruck)

Coulda, woulda, shoulda sums it up. This is just a hypothetical topic and not to be taken seriously.

As you say, HIS HOME WAS ON THE WING. The Barassi years were a joke. He could have played anywhere and been the superstar in that team. A half back flanker is still an outside player. He could rise to the occasion in any position but I doubt given his build he could sustain the physical punishment for long in packs and heavily contested play. In his final year he was more or less playing for his pension fund. Still gave us the usual great service and it was sad to see him lame and crippled in the goal square in his final game in the 87 PF. If we made it to the GF he'd never would have played.

Edited October 19, 2010 by america de cali

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

As you say, HIS HOME WAS ON THE WING. The Barassi years were a joke. He could have played anywhere and been the superstar in that team. A half back flanker is still an outside player. He could rise to the occasion in any position but I doubt given his build he could sustain the physical punishment for long in packs and heavily contested play. In his final year he was more or less playing for his pension fund. Still gave us the usual great service and it was sad to see him lame and crippled in the goal square in his final game in the 87 PF. If we made it to the GF he'd never would have played.

He played the majorty of his football on the wing but that does not detract from the points made that he had proven himself in other positions. A half back flanker is not necessarily at outside player and Flower was definitely not an outside player. He had the ability to win his own contested ball within packs as well as look brilliant in the open at the G.

Over his career he missed very little football and given his prominence was the subject of consistent physical attention from opposition players (before the days of multiple cameras at the ground).

In his final year he played midfield until he broke a finger half way through the year. He continued to play under pain killers and was pivotal up forward particular in the two finals and the famous R22 match. He kicked 47 goals for the year which belies the erroneous comment about the pension fund. And your reference to his disclocated shoulder sustained in a contact injury against Dipper is irrelevant to the point about his capabilities as a footballer to capably play a multitude of positions.

[The Jacks 0]

Neita would be handy in the forwardline, wouldn't he?

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

As good as Jamar is, Jim Stynes would be pretty damn useful.

[Guest Thomo]

I would want a player that would perform not just have natural gifts as footballer. You are entitled to your opinion but I am not sure Charles showed enough that was better than what Flower showed in crud teams for 13 years.

I was off on a tangent talking about how much talent I thought Sean Charles had. I didn't mean that I would actually pick him to play ahead of Robbie.

On topic, no way Robbie would be a sub, would be first picked to play 4 quarters. I think a sub needs to be able to fill in for injured players or to break a game open. If he wasn't already on the field, G Lyon would be awesome. Could go back, forward or in the middle for a short time.

[Sir Why You Little 36,985]

jeff farmer's effort coming off the bench in 2000 against collingwood was the greatest example i can think of.

wonder what danners said to him? it worked!

Edited October 19, 2010 by why you little

[Deestroy All 14,262]

jeff farmer's effort coming off the bench in 2000 against collingwood was the greatest example i can think of.

wonder what danners said to him? it worked!

Beat me to it.

If you want an instant 8 goals, you pick the Wiz.