rpfc said:

What damage could Martin do? That's what they would be pondering in the Geelong box. Martin is in the square, and Jurrah leading up 30 out - if I was a mid I know which player I would go to; I would go to Jurrah. Jurrah attracts the pill from the mids and Geelong, or any team, will put their best defender on the opposition's focal point.

So we have to start our best forward outside the 50 just so he doesn't get the attention?! Put the white flag down.

He is our most dangerous tall forward and is the number one target of the footy that goes into the forward line. Of course, he won't spend all his time at FF, but he is our focal point for the foreseeable future and he will be played predominantly at FF.

Where is our Neitz? Will Watts be solid enough to be a FF, or will he be a mobile (Riewoldt-like) CHF? Martin certainly isn't as talented as Neitz, he won't have the same affect on - the mids delivering the ball, and the attention of the defenders.

I have little doubt that Martin will play a deep forward role in 2010 and be back-up ruck, but his presence in the forward line doesn't mean that he will get the best defender or that the midfielders will kick it to him more; both of which are needed to relegate Jurrah to 2nd or 3rd tall.

* What damage could Martin do? Possibly the same damage that Jamar did late this year and kick 5 in the game when he mainly played FF.

* How often does Stevie J start outside 50 for Geelong? He would be well up there as their best forward? Jurrah will get attention, no doubt about it, I wouldn't say starting him outside 50m would be putting up the white flag, I would call it smart coaching. Don't forget, he has only played 9 games. Let's just hope he comes back as good, if not a little better next year.

* Where is our Neitz? This is not to highlight the fact we don't have anyone of Neitz's class, it's to highlight the fact we need a bigger size FF to attract a bigger size defender. Go through all the Club's lists. Their bigger defenders are generally their best defenders. In my team, Martin is our Neitz. I'm not saying he is as good as him, but will play the role that we need him to. The best part about Neitz was that he kicked a lot of goals at the same time.

* Your last point about Martin's presence in the forward line - are you reading my post???!!! I'm not saying he is our best forward, and because of this, we automatically think he wont get the best defender. BUT, if the match ups were based on our best forwards vs best defenders, it would mean Jurrah vs Scarlett, Watts vs Taylor, then Martin vs Milburn/Mackie. Do you really think Thompson would have the last match up? Especially if they were one out in the goal square. Therefore, a more suitable match up would see Scarlett or Taylor go to the bigger boded, but lesser quality Martin.

Surely that last point is starting to make you understand why we would benefit from Martin being a more permanent FF?? And, I highly doubt he will play number 2 ruck either, I think we will go in to a lot of games with 2 rucks, plus Martin.

  billy2803 said:

* Your last point about Martin's presence in the forward line - are you reading my post???!!! I'm not saying he is our best forward, and because of this, we automatically think he wont get the best defender. BUT, if the match ups were based on our best forwards vs best defenders, it would mean Jurrah vs Scarlett, Watts vs Taylor, then Martin vs Milburn/Mackie. Do you really think Thompson would have the last match up? Especially if they were one out in the goal square. Therefore, a more suitable match up would see Scarlett or Taylor go to the bigger boded, but lesser quality Martin.

Surely that last point is starting to make you understand why we would benefit from Martin being a more permanent FF??

Jurrah on Mackie would do more damage than Martin on Mackie.

Of course, Scarlett will go to the most dangerous forward, and until Watts comes on, that is Jurrah.

I see your point, but I reject it.

If Martin is a productive member of the forward line, it will be as a third tall - who will see less ball than Jurrah and get the lesser defender.

mackie played on jurrah this year and won the dual convincingly...

  davey said:

mackie played on jurrah this year and won the dual convincingly...

so he should have, jurrahs played 9games.

  billy2803 said:

Sorry you feel that way RPFC, this is a forum where we voice our opinions, very rarely is everyone going to agree, and generally, we all think our opinion is the correct one.

I want to see Jurrah play as the 3rd tall/3rd forward, as I believe we will see the best of him. If all of a sudden he is getting the best defender week after week, I'm just not sure if he will be able to produce week after week like everyone on here is expecting him to do. Don't get me wrong, I think he is an amazing talent, but to continue to see that unpredictable work that he so brilliantly done (IN 9 GAMES), I think he may struggle with that type of role.

Introducing Martin (or another tall) will allow 1 of 2 things. Being a bigger body, match up wise they will need a stronger defender. I'll give you a scenario that I have in my head so you can try and understand what "posters like me" are thinking;

2010, Melb vs Geelong - our forward line could include Jurrah and Watts, with Geelong's obvious defenders being Scarlett and Taylor. Our 2 boys are far from being able to handle 2 defenders like that, and, if they (Jack and Liam) are our "tall forwards", they will be the blokes most likely to line up on them. Now, if we were to include a Stef Martin, or a bigger body like that, all of a sudden, Geelong will need to play a Mackie or Milburn on Martin - WILL NOT HAPPEN. I think (and this is from a non-AFL level coach, like yourself), Bomber Thompson would shift most likely Scarlett on to Martin, meaning Liam Jurrah would get Mackie/Milburn, also known as their 3rd defender. This is in no way saying that Martin is a better forward than either Jurrah or Watts, but match up wise, he will nee to be matched up by a bigger (an generally better) defender.

Hopefully this helps you partially understand my theory behind my original post.

this is what i was referring to**

i'm saying some 3rd defenders can quite possibly do better on jurrah than a 1st or 2nd defender

this shows that putting a big body like martin or jamar up forward doesn't instantly liberate jurrah and let him kick bags

If Jurrah and Watts are our two best options up forward next year then they'll be picked up by the two best defenders. I have a feeling the club will ease the pressure by playing them in different positions like wing and midfield, or rotating them off the bench. They've played a total of 12 games and probably wont be strong enough in 2010 to play as the two key forwards on a regular basis. Someone else has to step up.

It may not matter where they play on the forward line. They will still get crunched. Watts played HFF against collingwood. I watched to see if Maxwell, O'Brien and co would give him some 'love taps' in the back. I lost count at 80.

  DirtyDees DDC said:

If Jurrah and Watts are our two best options up forward next year then they'll be picked up by the two best defenders. I have a feeling the club will ease the pressure by playing them in different positions like wing and midfield, or rotating them off the bench. They've played a total of 12 games and probably wont be strong enough in 2010 to play as the two key forwards on a regular basis. Someone else has to step up.

It may not matter where they play on the forward line. They will still get crunched. Watts played HFF against collingwood. I watched to see if Maxwell, O'Brien and co would give him some 'love taps' in the back. I lost count at 80.

Is that (treatment of Jack vs the Filth) true Dirty? I'm a Qld'er and only watched that game on TV (cameras didn't show much behind the play stuff). Good to hear that they roughed him up a bit - more incentive for Jack to build and toughen up a bit. In a couple of years time, he will return the favour...hopefully! Expectin a good season from JW, will be far from being our match winner, but will be over the moon if he can have a return of 15-20 goals from 12-16 matches. Anything beyond that is a massive bonus.

Agree 110% with what you were saying in the first paragraph. There is no way known that LJ, or Watts for that matter, are in the position to be our KPFs for 2010. They will be better placed in 2011 to play that role, but we wont see the best of them as true KPF until 2012. I thought I was the only one on here that thought that way, so I had pretty much given in to the majority (hence my tactics mentioned in this thread). I created a poll/thread on this site about how I see the team lining up come round 1, I had Watts starting on the HFF and Jurrah in a forward pocket. http://forums.demonland.com/index.php?showtopic=18477.

The big question is who will be the "someone" that will step up for us while LJ and Watts develop? Green? Bate? In my Round 1, 2010 team, I had Green playing out of the other FP with Martin at FF. It's that lack of a KPF for the immediate future (1-3 years) that has seen me publish on this site many times my desire to draft Mitch Thorp (if fit and switched on), and my ideal addition would have been Daniel Bradshaw.

  billy2803 said:

* What damage could Martin do? Possibly the same damage that Jamar did late this year and kick 5 in the game when he mainly played FF.

That was on Thornton though, anyone could kick a bag playing on him.

Martin did really well against Geelong early on this season. I can't remember him kicking a goal, but he had a very good presence and assisted 2-3 goals.

I think he worried Geelong a fair bit that day.

The argument over what number forward a player is hardly relevant at the MFC in 2010. None of Watts, Jurrah ar Martin can lay claim to the No. 1 tag. All three are young, inexperienced and will be dealing with a group of midfielders who are pretty much the same. The likes of Bate, Green, Sylvia and Miller are still going to make up the 'meat' in a forward line chock full of potential but light on for bulk and/or experience. I wouldn't be surprised if Watts was played as an attacking wingman while he gets a feel for the game. As for Jurrah, well he'll probably find life a lot harder this year as clubs begin to understand what a talent he is. Martin's a big boy and is going to take several more years to become the player we hope he will be, he's not a number 1 forward by a long long way.

  billy2803 said:

The big question is who will be the "someone" that will step up for us while LJ and Watts develop? Green? Bate? In my Round 1, 2010 team, I had Green playing out of the other FP with Martin at FF. It's that lack of a KPF for the immediate future (1-3 years) that has seen me publish on this site many times my desire to draft Mitch Thorp (if fit and switched on), and my ideal addition would have been Daniel Bradshaw.

Watts, Green, Bate, Martin, Jamar, and Miller will help share the load with Jurrah.

But Jurrah will get the ball kicked to him by our midfielders because he is our most talented tall forward and will attract their eye. He will get the best defender because of this, and his unique abilities.

I don't care if Bailey tells the midfield not to kick it to him, and to look for someone else. If he is in the forward line and the mids are under a manageable amount of pressure - they will look for Jurrah.

Call him a FP, FF, HFF, or whatever, if he is in the 50 the mids will look for him.

  rpfc said:

...

Call him FB if you like, he'll still attract the footy.

  rpfc said:

Watts, Green, Bate, Martin, Jamar, and Miller will help share the load with Jurrah.

But Jurrah will get the ball kicked to him by our midfielders because he is our most talented tall forward and will attract their eye. He will get the best defender because of this, and his unique abilities.

I don't care if Bailey tells the midfield not to kick it to him, and to look for someone else. If he is in the forward line and the mids are under a manageable amount of pressure - they will look for Jurrah.

Call him a FP, FF, HFF, or whatever, if he is in the 50 the mids will look for him.

That's right rp. The midfielders will be attracted to him one way or another, because he is capable of making things happen. Same reason that will draw people through the gates.

Maybe it's star attraction ?

edit: Had to include emoticon to help prevent any conflict or accusations of semantics..

Go on..I know you want to..I know I'm up for it.

  rpfc said:

Watts, Green, Bate, Martin, Jamar, and Miller will help share the load with Jurrah.

But Jurrah will get the ball kicked to him by our midfielders because he is our most talented tall forward and will attract their eye. He will get the best defender because of this, and his unique abilities.

I don't care if Bailey tells the midfield not to kick it to him, and to look for someone else. If he is in the forward line and the mids are under a manageable amount of pressure - they will look for Jurrah.

Call him a FP, FF, HFF, or whatever, if he is in the 50 the mids will look for him.

RPFC - I normally agree with your points, but, on this occasion though, I totally disagree. I think I'm right, you think you're right, we both think each other is wrong - gotta love personal opinions on forums!

My biggest issue with posters that think like you is that there is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too much pressure being put on Jurrah. 9 games of football, 2009/2010 will be his first ever preseason, 21 years old, lightly built (although he has and will continue to bulk up a bit more), to expect him to be our main forward is ludicrous. Will he be at some stage? There is a big chance. Personally, I think Watts has more potential/upside than Jurrah, which is a great thing for the club knowing how much LJ has already shown.

In a bleak 3 seasons, he (LJ) has been one of very few shining lights for mine, so we rightly so should feel that funny feeling in our tummy any time we see him. I have a terrible feeling that a few in here are suffering from "premature jubilation".

I'm as one-eyed as any Melbourne supporter going around, but on this occasion, I think my points are of those who have both eyes wide open.

  rpfc said:

Watts, Green, Bate, Martin, Jamar, and Miller will help share the load with Jurrah.

But Jurrah will get the ball kicked to him by our midfielders because he is our most talented tall forward and will attract their eye. He will get the best defender because of this, and his unique abilities.

I don't care if Bailey tells the midfield not to kick it to him, and to look for someone else. If he is in the forward line and the mids are under a manageable amount of pressure - they will look for Jurrah.

Call him a FP, FF, HFF, or whatever, if he is in the 50 the mids will look for him.

So, just because Jurrah is in the forward line, our mids will look for him before anyone else, even if you wouldn't care if Bailey told them not to kick it to him??? Can't see any of our group playing against the coach's instructions.

If the mids are under a manageable amount of pressure, they will look for the best option AT ALL TIMES. Sometimes it will be LJ, sometimes it will be Green, even Miller will be the best option at times. When I play midfield and am under pressure, I kick it to whoever is in the best position, not our best player.

Didn't an earlier post comment about how Mackie played well against Jurrah? Why would they (Geelong) move Scarlett on to him if Mackie has held his own against him? I know why, because that would mean if Mackie stayed on him, it would mean a club's 3rd backman would be on Jurrah - opposing clubs can't have that happening, he has to get the best defender right or wrong. Blah blah...

I'm glad you're not our coach - we would become a very predictable team if LJ was always our go to man. Didn't take long for clubs to realise Flash was our quarterback-type player this season. At times we were very one dimensional.

People keep focussing on the 9 games.

He's 21yo and looks as though he has played at least 50 games.

  High Tower said:

People keep focussing on the 9 games.

He's 21yo and looks as though he has played at least 50 games.

The big question HT is will he be able to back it up next year? Will Rich be able to dominate like he did this year? I bet if Rich doesn't perform to the same heights in 2010, there will be a lot of Brisbane supporters questioning if he was a one hit wonder. Will we do that with LJ? Rivers won the Rising Star after a dominant 1st year, now there is a lot of Melbourne supporters who wanted him traded or can't find a spot in the best 22.

WE/I focus on the 9 games because that's all he has played. There are 6 AFL Teams he has never played against! While he does look like he is 50 game player already, will he he look like a 100 game player at some stage next year? It's a lot of expectation for a kid that has played 9 games, actually, it's TOO much expectation.

1st, 2nd & 3rd tall is more a reference to position than quality of player, as I understand it.

Jurrah playing around HF and outside 50 for significant spells is fine with me, let's not forget that his ability to feed the ball in to other forwards was just as exceptional as the great goals and marks.

Martin has been ok, in either goal square, but has a way to go yet to be a true target/gorilla keeper. Fitzpatrick we can only assume much the same, and Gawn could also play that goalsquare role when not rucking.

As for where Watts ends up, he is going to be taller, stronger, faster, more agile, cleaner skilled and better looking than any given defender, for a period possibly as long as a decade. We could put him out in 'Pagan's Paddock' and never look back.

We have recruited the midfield talent to dominate for just as long, and have a half-forward line/goalkicking midfielder group that will be impossible to match up on.

So the only real question lies in that 'goalsquare gorilla' option, which will rely on the devleoping of players currently only in the 'new kid' or 'promising', but which will also perhaps never come into it given the nature of 'modern' football.

  Distance Demon said:

1st, 2nd & 3rd tall is more a reference to position than quality of player, as I understand it.

Jurrah playing around HF and outside 50 for significant spells is fine with me, let's not forget that his ability to feed the ball in to other forwards was just as exceptional as the great goals and marks.

Martin has been ok, in either goal square, but has a way to go yet to be a true target/gorilla keeper. Fitzpatrick we can only assume much the same, and Gawn could also play that goalsquare role when not rucking.

As for where Watts ends up, he is going to be taller, stronger, faster, more agile, cleaner skilled and better looking than any given defender, for a period possibly as long as a decade. We could put him out in 'Pagan's Paddock' and never look back.

We have recruited the midfield talent to dominate for just as long, and have a half-forward line/goalkicking midfielder group that will be impossible to match up on.

So the only real question lies in that 'goalsquare gorilla' option, which will rely on the devleoping of players currently only in the 'new kid' or 'promising', but which will also perhaps never come into it given the nature of 'modern' football.

Finally!!! Thanks DD!!!

  billy2803 said:

My biggest issue with posters that think like you is that there is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too much pressure being put on Jurrah. 9 games of football, 2009/2010 will be his first ever preseason, 21 years old, lightly built (although he has and will continue to bulk up a bit more), to expect him to be our main forward is ludicrous. Will he be at some stage? There is a big chance. Personally, I think Watts has more potential/upside than Jurrah, which is a great thing for the club knowing how much LJ has already shown.

In a bleak 3 seasons, he (LJ) has been one of very few shining lights for mine, so we rightly so should feel that funny feeling in our tummy any time we see him. I have a terrible feeling that a few in here are suffering from "premature jubilation".

I'm as one-eyed as any Melbourne supporter going around, but on this occasion, I think my points are of those who have both eyes wide open.

I don't expect anything. I know it for a fact. When Robertson was not in the forward line the mids looked to Jurrah, the defenders all went to him when the ball went in the forward line.

He is not under the pressure of being our number 1 forward because of my, or anyone else's design, he is there as a matter of circumstance or fate - he is the best forward right now at the club, he will spend most of his time in the forward 50, defenders will look to curb him the most, he is our focal point.

I am not saying anything about how he will go with the extra pressure or attention (personally I think there is very little this man can't do, especially on a footy field), all I am saying is that he will get that extra pressure and attention because of the circumstances we find ourselves - lack of an alternative, and his superlative skills.

  billy2803 said:

The big question HT is will he be able to back it up next year? Will Rich be able to dominate like he did this year? I bet if Rich doesn't perform to the same heights in 2010, there will be a lot of Brisbane supporters questioning if he was a one hit wonder. Will we do that with LJ? Rivers won the Rising Star after a dominant 1st year, now there is a lot of Melbourne supporters who wanted him traded or can't find a spot in the best 22.

WE/I focus on the 9 games because that's all he has played. There are 6 AFL Teams he has never played against! While he does look like he is 50 game player already, will he he look like a 100 game player at some stage next year? It's a lot of expectation for a kid that has played 9 games, actually, it's TOO much expectation.

Like I've said before, I have no expectations on him. I only expect the unexpected. That is what you would expect from a footballer such as Liam. Who play's on instinct and his own skill levels which are unique compared to other players in the AFL. Not many, if at all can do what he can.

What he does is exciting. I'm not sure if that is "TOO much expectation".

Will he be able to back it up next year ? I hope so. Will Rich ? Will Bate ? Will Watson ? Will Tippett ?

  Distance Demon said:

1st, 2nd & 3rd tall is more a reference to position than quality of player, as I understand it.

Just because I say that Martin is going to be our 1st tall doesn't make it so. Or Bate for that matter, or Miller. Your 1st tall, or number 1 focal point, is the player that attracts the footy when it comes into the forward line.

They attract the footy because of their talents, which are over-and-above other forwards. The midfielder is running through the corridor and sees the lead of multiple targets, who do they go for?

It's a judgement call; forward talent, distance to targets, proximity of defender, etc.

But unless there is an open target to hit, the easiest way to decide is forward talent; the midfielder will kick it to the forward they trust to do the most with it.

That is Liam Jurrah.

It might Jack Watts in a few years, but it certainly isn't Martin, Jamar, Bate, Miller, or any other target.

It is all about quality...

  rpfc said:

Just because I say that Martin is going to be our 1st tall doesn't make it so. Or Bate for that matter, or Miller. Your 1st tall, or number 1 focal point, is the player that attracts the footy when it comes into the forward line.

They attract the footy because of their talents, which are over-and-above other forwards. The midfielder is running through the corridor and sees the lead of multiple targets, who do they go for?

It's a judgement call; forward talent, distance to targets, proximity of defender, etc.

But unless there is an open target to hit, the easiest way to decide is forward talent; the midfielder will kick it to the forward they trust to do the most with it.

That is Liam Jurrah.

It might Jack Watts in a few years, but it certainly isn't Martin, Jamar, Bate, Miller, or any other target.

It is all about quality...

martin will be lucky to get a game in 2seasons, hes ruck work against jamar is shocking.

  rpfc said:

Just because I say that Martin is going to be our 1st tall doesn't make it so. Or Bate for that matter, or Miller. Your 1st tall, or number 1 focal point, is the player that attracts the footy when it comes into the forward line.

They attract the footy because of their talents, which are over-and-above other forwards. The midfielder is running through the corridor and sees the lead of multiple targets, who do they go for?

It's a judgement call; forward talent, distance to targets, proximity of defender, etc.

But unless there is an open target to hit, the easiest way to decide is forward talent; the midfielder will kick it to the forward they trust to do the most with it.

That is Liam Jurrah.

It might Jack Watts in a few years, but it certainly isn't Martin, Jamar, Bate, Miller, or any other target.

It is all about quality...

I'm just not sure what your argument is RP.

So, let's say our forward line consisted of Jurrah (191cm, 81kg), Watts (196cm, 83kg), Bate (192cm, 90kg) and Martin/Jamar (both 198cm, 100kg), who would Brian Lake line up against? Brian is there number 1 defender (195cm, 104kg).

In your opinion, he would line up on Jurrah - our number 1 forward. Do you really think this is a great match up? By having a Martin (or Jamar) as our FF, chances are it will force Lake to play on them.

Most of the time, our number 1 forward will not line up against the number 1 defender. In the above scenario, Jurrah (our number 1 forward) could quite possible attract an opposition number 3 defender.

I seriously can't make this any clearer for you.

  hellter skelter said:

martin will be lucky to get a game in 2seasons, hes ruck work against jamar is shocking.

You're joking? Martin was not recruited to be a ruckman.

  billy2803 said:

I'm just not sure what your argument is RP.

So, let's say our forward line consisted of Jurrah (191cm, 81kg), Watts (196cm, 83kg), Bate (192cm, 90kg) and Martin/Jamar (both 198cm, 100kg), who would Brian Lake line up against? Brian is there number 1 defender (195cm, 104kg).

In your opinion, he would line up on Jurrah - our number 1 forward. Do you really think this is a great match up? By having a Martin (or Jamar) as our FF, chances are it will force Lake to play on them.

Most of the time, our number 1 forward will not line up against the number 1 defender. In the above scenario, Jurrah (our number 1 forward) could quite possible attract an opposition number 3 defender.

I seriously can't make this any clearer for you.

I reject your analogy.

Brian Lake rarely plays on the best attacker. Morris takes Riewoldt.

Lake is an attacking backman in the mould of Scarlett but he rarely plays on the number 1 forward.

We can split hairs over whether this person would or wouldn't take Jurrah, but I will tell you this now, without equivocation - sides will set-up their defence to counter Liam Jurrah should he spend his time in the forward line.

Now we can put Martin in there to help, or Jamar, or Bate, or Miller. But unless Jurrah is moved out of the forward line, other sides will still set-up their defence with the notion of quelling Jurrah.