Were we really a 4 - 18 team?

[Ryan Dee 140]

Playing full tilt we would have beaten both Richmond and Sydney. So that would make us a 6-16 team which is about right.

Next year, anything less than 7 wins requires some serious scrutiny.

8 wins should be the target.

Not so sure about Sydney, you just never know really.

But I agree 8 wins sounds good.

[H_T 3,047]

The first time against the eagles we were going to win until our best mids were all pulled off the ground at the same time.

I think this season had we been trying to win we'd have been more a 6-8 game team. Not good enough for finals, but certainly well on the way.

Correct. Strange game that one, occassionally I keep going back to it.

When we were 0-4, I thought after the Essendon game if we were 1 and 12 or 2-11, the PP would become the focus. TBH, as with many I was concerned after the Port win when we had 3 wins. With Richmond, North, Sydney & Fremantle still to play. Strange feeling and I didn't enjoy it, but I'm glad we're all through it now. All the way the focus was on strengthening the list. Oh, so important.

Well done Mfc.

Edited August 31, 2009 by High Tower

[rpfc 28,440]

Some on here would see a conspiracy if they woke up and they were out of cornflakes.

Tanking against St Kilda??

What delusional arrogance.

Get away from this nonsense.

We are an awful team that might have, with a bit of luck, won 6 or 7 games. Lucky, Bailey and Co. have massive cajones and got us 4.

Next year we will be better, but I don't want to win 11 games if it means Watts only plays half the year.

He is the future, and I would sacrifice a 8th spot for 12th if it meant a full season for J Watts on a wing/HFF. Next year is still about development.

[Adelaide Demon 0]

I can't believe you would say that rpfc. J. Watts is not the future alone. He is part of a core group of youth. He is going to be one of probably 5-8 top-line players we will hopefully have in 4-5 years. To say that you would prefer to finish 12th than to have this young list play in a final, and by default win at least 10.5 matches next year, is baffling. I understand that next year is still about development, but getting a young list in to 8th and playing in a final is going to do a lot more for the list overall than winning two or three less matches and having Watts play 10 extra games.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Adelaide Demon

[Trisul 664]

I read that Scully would be rated 3-5 (?) in Watts' draft. I think, feel free to correct, rpfc is saying that Jack leads the potential talent that we have really only just begun to nurture. What's best for the players development is not always going to win you games (as we've seen).

Edited August 31, 2009 by Trident

[beelzebub 23,377]

Some on here would see a conspiracy if they woke up and they were out of cornflakes.

Tanking against St Kilda??

What delusional arrogance.

Get away from this nonsense.

We are an awful team that might have, with a bit of luck, won 6 or 7 games. Lucky, Bailey and Co. have massive cajones and got us 4.

Next year we will be better, but I don't want to win 11 games if it means Watts only plays half the year.

He is the future, and I would sacrifice a 8th spot for 12th if it meant a full season for J Watts on a wing/HFF. Next year is still about development.

Ok..lets call it experimentation for you shall we ?

We went in to that game without wanting.let alone needing a win. we had at least 7 genuine starters out of the side. We allowed 3 stalwarts the oportunity to have a bit of fun,i meanwhat else do you call letting wheats have some 'bombing' practice..and later in the game too. Throwing both he and wheels up forward for a look see .

Call me a conspirator then as I simply think the number of posters we had that day was arguably exceptional for any game.

Some strange moves.. Frawley off Rooo, whom he had held al day.. Jurrah either up the ground or offit entirely when looking dangerous. Cant have a ruck dominating so put him in the goal square. Slow the rotations down..

Leaving various Sainters all but unattended when they had been worn as coats all day

Naah..youre right.. we didnt tank against the top team..

With only really 10-12 mins to go did they really get away from us...and do you think that was coincedental ?

It does I agree beggar belief to think we should have even been in that position but watching it thats exactly how it looked.

We lairised and were still in touch .. The Boys would have been pretty happy that they had taken it right up to these Chumps..I mean champs and that was as good as a win on the day considering what was at stake.

strange but true

[rpfc 28,440]

I read that Scully would be rated 3-5 (?) in Watts' draft. I think, feel free to correct, rpfc is saying that Jack leads the potential talent that we have really only just begun to nurture. What's best for the players development is not always going to win you games (as we've seen).

Exactly.

I don't want to finish 8th if it means we are sacrificing development toward 2012 and after.

The clearest example is Miller/Newton over Watts.

Both, arguable with Newton, would give more in 2010 than Watts, but neither should play if the decision is to leave out Watts.

Scully should come in to, we need to pump games into our talent and push Bruce, Green and Macca into peripheral roles such as HBF, FP, and BP respectively.

[rpfc 28,440]

I can't believe you would say that rpfc. J. Watts is not the future alone. He is part of a core group of youth. He is going to be one of probably 5-8 top-line players we will hopefully have in 4-5 years. To say that you would prefer to finish 12th than to have this young list play in a final, and by default win at least 10.5 matches next year, is baffling. I understand that next year is still about development, but getting a young list in to 8th and playing in a final is going to do a lot more for the list overall than winning two or three less matches and having Watts play 10 extra games.

No.

He is our CHF in our flag tilt. (If he isn't please tell me who)

We need to pump games into him, and if it is to the detriment of our win/loss record, well, so be it.

I have already said that we could win 12 games next year, wtih a favourable draw, but I want to see our talent exposed to the AFL.

[beelzebub 23,377]

I have already said that we could win 12 games next year, wtih a favourable draw, but I want to see our talent exposed to the AFL.

I will/would wait til eyeing the actual fixture for next year but it may well prove the shrewdest bet to make.. i.e Melbourne for the 8

A lazy C-note may well pay off your Christmas

[rpfc 28,440]

Ok..lets call it experimentation for you shall we ?

We went in to that game without wanting.let alone needing a win. we had at least 7 genuine starters out of the side. We allowed 3 stalwarts the oportunity to have a bit of fun,i meanwhat else do you call letting wheats have some 'bombing' practice..and later in the game too. Throwing both he and wheels up forward for a look see .

Call me a conspirator then as I simply think the number of posters we had that day was arguably exceptional for any game.

Some strange moves.. Frawley off Rooo, whom he had held al day.. Jurrah either up the ground or offit entirely when looking dangerous. Cant have a ruck dominating so put him in the goal square. Slow the rotations down..

Leaving various Sainters all but unattended when they had been worn as coats all day

Naah..youre right.. we didnt tank against the top team..

With only really 10-12 mins to go did they really get away from us...and do you think that was coincedental ?

It does I agree beggar belief to think we should have even been in that position but watching it thats exactly how it looked.

We lairised and were still in touch .. The Boys would have been pretty happy that they had taken it right up to these Chumps..I mean champs and that was as good as a win on the day considering what was at stake.

strange but true

Hardly.

Have a look at the stats, the Saints were toying with us and smashed us in every KPI that there is.

They finally hit their targets in the last 15 mins and we were annihilated.

As for the positional changes - Bailey couldn't do an effing thing on the field this year without it being a tactic of tanking.

If people on here think that Jurrah playing wing is a laughable tactic of someone who doesn't want to win, I should alert these cynics that he will play FF in the future but when he is being mauled, they will throw him onto a wing and you might have a different view as to whether Bailey was tanking against a team that had won 19 games.

[e25 5]

No.

He is our CHF in our flag tilt. (If he isn't please tell me who)

We need to pump games into him, and if it is to the detriment of our win/loss record, well, so be it.

I have already said that we could win 12 games next year, wtih a favourable draw, but I want to see our talent exposed to the AFL.

Just gazed into my tea-leaves -- Watts to be CHB with Morton rotating through CHF along with... er.. can't see...

The future is cloudy

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

I would much prefer in 2010 for all players to have to compete for a spot on the team rather than be gifted it. Part of our development now (2010 and beyond) has to be creating the culture that no matter who you are, you are picked on your merits, not for development, experience etc. Make all the players, no matter their potential or draft pick have to earn their spot. I think this goes especially for Watts. I am concerned that he is lacking the drive and hunger that is displayed by other, less talented youngsters who perhaps feel they have much more to prove. The attack on the contest shown by Watts so far has been lacking in intent.

[rpfc 28,440]

I would much prefer in 2010 for all players to have to compete for a spot on the team rather than be gifted it. Part of our development now (2010 and beyond) has to be creating the culture that no matter who you are, you are picked on your merits, not for development, experience etc. Make all the players, no matter their potential or draft pick have to earn their spot. I think this goes especially for Watts. I am concerned that he is lacking the drive and hunger that is displayed by other, less talented youngsters who perhaps feel they have much more to prove. The attack on the contest shown by Watts so far has been lacking in intent.

I'm not advocating free games, nor am I saying he cannot be dropped.

What I am saying is that if his attitude is good and he is fit, I would much prefer a 10 possession 1 goal game from Watts than a 15 possession 2 goal game from Newton or Miller.

He is the future, and the sooner we drop the pretense the better.

[Akum 2,660]

I would much prefer in 2010 for all players to have to compete for a spot on the team rather than be gifted it. Part of our development now (2010 and beyond) has to be creating the culture that no matter who you are, you are picked on your merits, not for development, experience etc. Make all the players, no matter their potential or draft pick have to earn their spot. I think this goes especially for Watts. I am concerned that he is lacking the drive and hunger that is displayed by other, less talented youngsters who perhaps feel they have much more to prove. The attack on the contest shown by Watts so far has been lacking in intent.

Let me assure you, young Jack was mighty p***ed off at having to bring down the curtain early on his season for his own good. Next year he'll devote his whole attention to MFC, and with a full preseason he'll be ready to eat the footy and half a goalpost by the bounce of the ball Rd 1 2010. Remember, he would have been eligible for this year's draft.

[beelzebub 23,377]

Hardly.

Have a look at the stats, the Saints were toying with us and smashed us in every KPI that there is.

Oh give me a break.. of course the stats got a bit lopp sided.. they played by themselves for the last 15 mins.. you were there I take it.. Funny the scoreboard wasnt backing you up till half way through the las t quarter.. dont rely on stats..they'll bury you.

e.g a side kicks 2.7 to a side that kicks 4 straight...apparently side one is doing better as they have had more entries and more scoring shots.. funny though as they are losing..lol.. understand !!

They finally hit their targets in the last 15 mins and we were annihilated.

Again..and why do you think that was because of positional changes and various sainters being left alone

As for the positional changes - Bailey couldn't do an effing thing on the field this year without it being a tactic of tanking.

Jamar to goal square ..when we needed to maintain the rage at the bounce ??

If people on here think that Jurrah playing wing is a laughable tactic of someone who doesn't want to win, I should alert these cynics that he will play FF in the future but when he is being mauled, they will throw him onto a wing and you might have a different view as to whether Bailey was tanking against a team that had won 19 games.

I know that Jurrah is quite happy playing up and down...and look out any opposing coach who thinks they cannegate him doing that.. But as he was on fire in fornt of goals ..he was dragged from them.. He's just too potent when you cant afford to win.

He we arrive at the reality of the day again...thats reality.. not stats and smoke and miirors etc.. Heres the almighty ( supposedly ) Saints, playing lowly Demons. They should have been mopping us al around the ground from teh get go.. They were having their bums smacked. Frawley was having Reiwoldt for breakfast. Kosi was looking like a fish out of water when he had his space denied. Milne was being out- Milned, he was frustrated and niggled. Gram wasnt doing too bad.Schneider was fairly quiet for the most part. Del Santo and Hayes were having to grind out a game. The Saints couldnt get much happening through the middle and were constantly denied much room in the 50... that was most of the game.. fastforward to the last quarter. Melbourne slowed down the rotations.. deliberately took pressure off of the Saints and arguably left one or two all but alone. Frawley was off Roo and he came alive again. Now if you really wanted to keep them quiet youd leave Frawley on Roo ..wouldnt you ??

Why was Jurrah taken from the field when he was.. he was fine.. fit as a fiddle and couldve run Uluru backwards..ffs he can run all day!! So why was he taken off ( after he goaled) Dont give me its regular.. because at melbourne it ISNT !!. If youare trying to seriously win do you let an outgoign champ a bit of fun and just let him kick it as far as he can for the hell of it ?? I doubt it.. And if you noticed we didnt man up man to man at teh fall of those kicks either...were you paying attention ?? I was

Please dont try to tell me the Saints finally decided to change up a gear...all by themselves. The season was well and truly over for us.. The lads had made a point...look out in 010.

The long and short of it is that we in many respects had no right to be where we were on the scoreboard through out the day given our respective positions on the ladder, but if ever there was an abject lesson in not taking too much to heart about stats and such it was that game.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Oh give me a break.. of course the stats got a bit lopp sided.. they played by themselves for the last 15 mins.. you were there I take it.. Funny the scoreboard wasnt backing you up till half way through the las t quarter.. dont rely on stats..they'll bury you.

e.g a side kicks 2.7 to a side that kicks 4 straight...apparently side one is doing better as they have had more entries and more scoring shots.. funny though as they are losing..lol.. understand !!

Again..and why do you think that was because of positional changes and various sainters being left alone

Jamar to goal square ..when we needed to maintain the rage at the bounce ??

I know that Jurrah is quite happy playing up and down...and look out any opposing coach who thinks they cannegate him doing that.. But as he was on fire in fornt of goals ..he was dragged from them.. He's just too potent when you cant afford to win.

He we arrive at the reality of the day again...thats reality.. not stats and smoke and miirors etc.. Heres the almighty ( supposedly ) Saints, playing lowly Demons. They should have been mopping us al around the ground from teh get go.. They were having their bums smacked. Frawley was having Reiwoldt for breakfast. Kosi was looking like a fish out of water when he had his space denied. Milne was being out- Milned, he was frustrated and niggled. Gram wasnt doing too bad.Schneider was fairly quiet for the most part. Del Santo and Hayes were having to grind out a game. The Saints couldnt get much happening through the middle and were constantly denied much room in the 50... that was most of the game.. fastforward to the last quarter. Melbourne slowed down the rotations.. deliberately took pressure off of the Saints and arguably left one or two all but alone. Frawley was off Roo and he came alive again. Now if you really wanted to keep them quiet youd leave Frawley on Roo ..wouldnt you ??

Why was Jurrah taken from the field when he was.. he was fine.. fit as a fiddle and couldve run Uluru backwards..ffs he can run all day!! So why was he taken off ( after he goaled) Dont give me its regular.. because at melbourne it ISNT !!. If youare trying to seriously win do you let an outgoign champ a bit of fun and just let him kick it as far as he can for the hell of it ?? I doubt it.. And if you noticed we didnt man up man to man at teh fall of those kicks either...were you paying attention ?? I was

Please dont try to tell me the Saints finally decided to change up a gear...all by themselves. The season was well and truly over for us.. The lads had made a point...look out in 010.

The long and short of it is that we in many respects had no right to be where we were on the scoreboard through out the day given our respective positions on the ladder, but if ever there was an abject lesson in not taking too much to heart about stats and such it was that game.

I was at the game and agree with you entirely; we were more interested in seeing how far Wheatley could kick and getting a goal for Robbo hence they ran away from us. I remarked to my son after LJ kicked a goal, I bet they take him off now and sure enough they did.

[H_T 3,047]

Just gazed into my tea-leaves -- Watts to be CHB with Morton rotating through CHF along with... er.. can't see...

The future is cloudy

I know what you're saying.

But I'd like to think next year will be a case of...."I can see clearly now the rain is gone...."

....this doesn't mean we'll make the 8...to those who think I am suggesting that...which I'm not ...

[Akum 2,660]

Look, I think we're a long way from being "flawless". But we're not that far away from being "good enough".

The Saints showed on Sunday that they've got their share of flaws too; so does every team in fact. I noticed that we scored more off turnovers than they did. If they reproduce anything like that performance in their finals they'll be out in straight sets, which would be a huge pity.

But frankly, I didn't think we were capable of some of the things we did in that game, no matter who was the opposition. Some of the ball movement was beautiful, we rebounded well out of defence, and (what surprised me the most) we were able on many occasions to keep possession and be patient until something opened up and then use the opening to move the ball deep into attack.

Our one massive glaring weakness is clearances, where we lose every single week, and which links to inside-50s, which are embarrassingly low every week. Our improvement in 2010 will be directly proportional to our improvement in clearances. When we're good enough to get into the top half in clearances, that's when we're good enough to get into the 8. It could be next year with all the pacy young mids we will have to add to this year's team, but it's more likely to take a few years. But clearances will be the yardstick.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

St Kilda close to asleep and at its worst were still 8 goals better than a plucky MFC who are showing some good signs.

But lets not get carried away. We need to improve.... a lot and St Kilda would need to get worse by a fair bit before we can claim game on. When focussed, we aren't even in the Saints ballpark at the moment.

Give it a couple of years and....

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

It is very hard to draw conclusions from that last game except that Melbourne is better now than 12 months ago and that St Kilda need to lift if they want to go deep into September.

On Sunday there were several passages of play that proved our skill, ball movement, pressure and descision making is better than last year. And that is with a side that has a very long injury list. Our list is so even it is impossible to tell, but one could easliy argue that if we had our best 22 available at least half of the team would change. We are getting better.

The game finished with an 8 goal win, but that margin stretched out in junk time. The actual gap between us and St Kilda if we were both at our best is impossible to tell. St Kilda may never reach the rarified form they were in 8 weeks ago. The amount of "holding back" down by our coaching staff is also impossible to measure.

When I weigh up what I perceive to be "tanking" efforts, the long injury list, and the results of the last few weeks, I think we are likely to at least double our amount of wins next year.

[rpfc 28,440]

He we arrive at the reality of the day again...thats reality.. not stats and smoke and miirors etc.. Heres the almighty ( supposedly ) Saints, playing lowly Demons. They should have been mopping us al around the ground from teh get go.. They were having their bums smacked. Frawley was having Reiwoldt for breakfast. Kosi was looking like a fish out of water when he had his space denied. Milne was being out- Milned, he was frustrated and niggled. Gram wasnt doing too bad.Schneider was fairly quiet for the most part. Del Santo and Hayes were having to grind out a game. The Saints couldnt get much happening through the middle and were constantly denied much room in the 50... that was most of the game.. fastforward to the last quarter. Melbourne slowed down the rotations.. deliberately took pressure off of the Saints and arguably left one or two all but alone. Frawley was off Roo and he came alive again. Now if you really wanted to keep them quiet youd leave Frawley on Roo ..wouldnt you ??

Why was Jurrah taken from the field when he was.. he was fine.. fit as a fiddle and couldve run Uluru backwards..ffs he can run all day!! So why was he taken off ( after he goaled) Dont give me its regular.. because at melbourne it ISNT !!. If youare trying to seriously win do you let an outgoign champ a bit of fun and just let him kick it as far as he can for the hell of it ?? I doubt it.. And if you noticed we didnt man up man to man at teh fall of those kicks either...were you paying attention ?? I was

Please dont try to tell me the Saints finally decided to change up a gear...all by themselves. The season was well and truly over for us.. The lads had made a point...look out in 010.

The long and short of it is that we in many respects had no right to be where we were on the scoreboard through out the day given our respective positions on the ladder, but if ever there was an abject lesson in not taking too much to heart about stats and such it was that game.

When you get challenged you hide behind a patronising tone as if to say to everyone else "how could anyone possibly disagree?"

You are not convincing me at all about the motives of Bailey against St Kilda.

They had 37 clearances to 19, they had 124 contested poss. to 91, they had 67 Inside 50s to 39, and they had 90 more possessions than us.

But you account for this by saying that stats are not important, and that it all happened in the last 15 minutes. Must have been a busy 15 minutes.

We were efficient in front of goals and they missed targets. As soon as they started to use the ball better, we drowned.

We still have miles to go before we sleep...

[beelzebub 23,377]

When you get challenged you hide behind a patronising tone as if to say to everyone else "how could anyone possibly disagree?"

You are not convincing me at all about the motives of Bailey against St Kilda.

They had 37 clearances to 19, they had 124 contested poss. to 91, they had 67 Inside 50s to 39, and they had 90 more possessions than us.

But you account for this by saying that stats are not important, and that it all happened in the last 15 minutes. Must have been a busy 15 minutes.

We were efficient in front of goals and they missed targets. As soon as they started to use the ball better, we drowned.

We still have miles to go before we sleep...

when I get challenged.. I answer teh question...if you are that highly strung or ptretentious yourslef that a few words can rattle you ...grow some skin..thats all I can suggest.

You still .. now..I'll be as nice as I can...havent addressed the nature of your advocacy that stats rule.. many were earnt in junk time and as such are meaninglless.. Not just I have that view.. but others. You are of course entitled to yours. I just happen to disagree. Stats even at the best of times are a dangerous reliance. Um yes it was a busy 15 minutes.. I can only take it that you were watching an entirely different game as that was indeed when the Saints skipped away to their eventual margin. Still wee managed a few of our own too.. That in itslef is curious as it really ought have been a one way street then .. by all accounts..especially statiscally !!

Mate i really couldnt care less to convince you or not.. I simply am stating as an observation, and my opinion, what I saw. Funny others seem to have seen it too.. not too many saw your game it would seem

Seems when you are challenged...your afront is the challenge itself. If Im wrong I'll happily change my view of concede the better judgement.

Where we will both agree however is there are indeed many miles yet to travel and its will be hard.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

St Kilda close to asleep and at its worst were still 8 goals better than a plucky MFC who are showing some good signs.

But lets not get carried away. We need to improve.... a lot and St Kilda would need to get worse by a fair bit before we can claim game on. When focussed, we aren't even in the Saints ballpark at the moment.

Give it a couple of years and....

The Saints had something to play for we didn't, their players were playing for a game next week, ours were thinking of mad Monday.

Sure the Saints are a better side than ours but we pressed them for 3.5 quarters and if we didn't have two players that were playing injured and a side that had nothing to play for the game would have been closer.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The Saints had something to play for we didn't, their players were playing for a game next week, ours were thinking of mad Monday.

Sure the Saints are a better side than ours but we pressed them for 3.5 quarters and if we didn't have two players that were playing injured and a side that had nothing to play for the game would have been closer.

You're way off the track

There were more MFC players out their playing for their careers than Saints players. Few if any of the Saints players positions were in jeopardy for next week. If anything Riewoldt was playing injured and they were missing their most dynamic big man in Gardner. There biggest issue was to get the 4 points and no injuries. Their focus is on this week, not playing a pre determined wooden spooner.They accomplished their objectives with 10 minutes of football.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

You're way off the track

There were more MFC players out their playing for their careers than Saints players. Few if any of the Saints players positions were in jeopardy for next week. If anything Riewoldt was playing injured and they were missing their most dynamic big man in Gardner. There biggest issue was to get the 4 points and no injuries. Their focus is on this week, not playing a pre determined wooden spooner.They accomplished their objectives with 10 minutes of football.

Care to name the MFC players that were playing for their career? Don't you think the club would have made that decision some weeks ago, do you really believe that one last roll of the dice would have saved a player from the chop?

Would you like to go on to the MFC website an have a look at the injury list, they had Gardner out, big deal we played a 19 year old rookie for most of the game in the ruck. We were mucking around in the last half of the last quarter they were more intent on getting Robbo a goal and missed some scoring opportunities.

If you really think they were interested in the last 15 minutes of the game you are delusional