dappa robbie was the best, my dad took me to 87prelim i was 14yrs old and i left in tears,he was a champion.

I was 7... I didn't even know where my [censored] was, let alone what footy was all about.

Now of course, I'm very familiar with both...

I was 5 months, don't recall much, was probably hungry at some stage

I guess the reason we get so excited by good young players is that there is always a chance they will take a big step up and become stars, while the older players will probably just carry on, maybe make incremental improvement.

Would it be fair to say that a 'champion / elite / whatever you call it' player is one who is consistently in the picture for honours like All-australian selection, year in year out?

By that measure, it has been a while since we've had someone at that level - a fair few players at the next step down who might be considered for All-Australian in a good year (for example Neitz, Robertson, White, Yze, McDonald, Woewodin, Johnstone, Davey, Bruce) but nobody who has been so good for so many years in a row that they have become a 'keep your eye on' kind of player.

Not since guys like Stynes, Lyon, and of course Flower.

But, in the decade that I've been a close follower, I've never felt it was more likely that we'd have a couple of real stars come through.

Except, possibly, for a few days just after the 2000 Preliminary final win. Gotta love that 1999 draft. Two in a row of that quality and we would have been a superpower instead of a finals also-ran from 2002-2006. But alas, we all know how the 2000 and 2001 drafts went. POO.

In perspective, we've had five years or so of reasonably good drafting, heavily over-represented in the Rising Star award ever since Rivers and Davey came first and second in 2004. We've had at least two players nominated every year since then.

If the 07-08 drafts deliver on their promise, we'll really be cooking.

Would it be fair to say that a 'champion / elite / whatever you call it' player is one who is consistently in the picture for honours like All-australian selection, year in year out?

...

(for example Neitz, Robertson, White, Yze, McDonald, Woewodin, Johnstone, Davey, Bruce)

that might be an indicator but it is certainly not definitive nor is it the only criteria.

out of the names you listed i agree with you that they are all the next step down (or lower), neitz comes close but almost due to quantity not quality, but that sounds like a terrible thing to say about him. he was a fine footballer, a supurb CHB, and later a solid forward. but he never reached the absolute elite level heights as a forward, and did not stay back long enough.

robertson isnt up there for me. good serviceable footballer. can be exciting, can kick a bag, but the difference between his best and worst has been too much, and he rarely (imo) has been the player to change a match.

white could've been but for three reasons. the centre circle rule cruelled him and limited his effectiveness. he was never damaging enough when drifting up forward or effective enough when drifting back (perhaps because of his lack of physicality). and thirdly because imo ruckmen just aren't that important. however it should be noted that our good years also coincided with his good years.

yze; i'm not sure if we need to again discuss why he isnt at those heights. for a period he was close to elite. his kicking off the half back was sublime, but he never handballed, even if it was a better option.

mcdonald falls into a similar category as neitz imo.

woewodin. well he won a brownloe and i wont take that away from him. but one swallow doesnt make a summer. solid career with a standout season being fed by a dominant ruckman. doesn't put him in robbie flowers category.

johnstone. need we say more?

davey is imo no where near elite. he does some nice things. he can run really fast and kick a goal occasionally. that doesnt make him elite, no matter how exciting he is to watch.

bruce. is definitely the closest we have now. imo the last couple of years have been a let down for him because he has shown he can do it but has let himself down with disposal. had his kicking been at the same standard the last 3 years as it had been previously he would almost be in that category.

that being said, there are definitely some players who i believe dont deserve to be called elite even though they have made AA teams. and similarly there are probably some who dont make the cut.

i mite be biased, but i find hard to think that certain supporters, lets say rhino, and a few others dont rate neitz a champion player, all australian chb, coleman medalist, and the greatest on field leader the clubs ever had, now i respect all of your opinions,now if u guys think j watts is our saviour he has long way to go before he reaches neitz,i hope he does but i believe some certain people are selling neitz short.

Well said,

Champion of the club - Yes

Champion of the AFL - Yes (Lets not forget the no Nietz no Melb comments for many years)

Elite of the game? - I would say maybe no, but Robbie yes he did week in week out neitz did have some less productive times due to things like injuries etc. So I would suggest luck as much as anything has to do with being an elite player v champion.

BTW what happened to blease & Strauss??

To start the topic off again has anybody seen them much. There hasn't been a lot of news coming back from training for these guys. Interested in skills, descision making, fitness etc.........

To start the topic off again has anybody seen them much. There hasn't been a lot of news coming back from training for these guys. Interested in skills, descision making, fitness etc.........

Yes. Good point. However I was enjoying the read on the debate about "elite" with respect to the mfc from all posters, until I came accross yours, now you've gone and ruined it for me Monty..... just kidding.

Back on to the debate and I pose a question for posters, is Glen Archer an elite player or just a very good player over a period of time?

I agree Robbie Flower is an elite player.

Yes. Good point. However I was enjoying the read on the debate about "elite" with respect to the mfc from all posters, until I came accross yours, now you've gone and ruined it for me Monty..... just kidding.

Sorry HT......... hope you slept ok knowing this!

Back on to the debate and I pose a question for posters, is Glen Archer an elite player or just a very good player over a period of time?

I agree Robbie Flower is an elite player.

I think Glen archer fills the Nietz type comparison i had earlier...

Champion of the club - Yes

Champion of the AFL - Yes (Attack on the football and courage 2nd to none with apologies to nietz in his prime)

Elite of the game? - No, Skills were not good enough IMO. the perfect comparison here is Carey v Archer in their prime and IMO carey was elite and archer was a champion. Likewise lyon v neitz. had have lyon's body not failed him he would have been an elite of the game, neitz will be remembered as one of the all time champions of our club certainly in the modern era.

Iteresting Brian Wilsons name has not been mentioned much? Also el-President? the latter was certainly an elite ruckman and champion I would have thought.

I think Glen archer fills the Nietz type comparison i had earlier...

..

Elite of the game? - No, Skills were not good enough IMO. the perfect comparison here is Carey v Archer in their prime and IMO carey was elite and archer was a champion.

Skills not good enough. Won an NSM medal. BOG in the toughest game of the year. Lead the North backline for many years and often played and beat opponents far bigger and heavier. HIs contribution to North as a player and a leader were profound. You underestimate him. But I can see how a player like Archer misses some the supporter praise but I know from ex players at North his toughness, poise and performance under pressure was judged as valuable as Carey. And on Carey vs Archer comparison will always unfairly punish Archer. Personal issues aside, Carey was the pre eminent footballer of the 1990s in the AFL.

Iteresting Brian Wilsons name has not been mentioned much? Also el-President? the latter was certainly an elite ruckman and champion I would have thought.

Brian Wilson had one great year and a few cameos afterwards. However Wilson is an enigma and his high points were dulled somewhat IMO by his lack of team orientation both on and off the ground. Sometimes when hot he could lift a side but other times you got the impression he was playing for Brian Wilson. Probably the greatest showman at playing the umpires for being hit too high around the head. However I do have happy memories of him kicking 5 in a low scoring win against the filth at VFL Park. He really got up their noses that day.

Stynes was a better mobile follower than ruckman and IMO was a very good player but did not sustain the 2001 form. While achieving the consecutive games record he was admirable but sometimes the output during that period was less than it could have been. He carried (accumulated!) alot of injuries which dulled his performance in later years.

Elite of the game? - I would say maybe no, but Robbie yes he did week in week out neitz did have some less productive times due to things like injuries etc. So I would suggest luck as much as anything has to do with being an elite player v champion.

I don't agree. Like all sports, at the pointy end, it's those with an incredible sporting brain that differentiates them from the very best of the rest. Neitz was a terrific player, but his footy smarts were a peg below the very best and all the luck in the world wouldn't address this downfall. This isn't to put Neitz down, as his exploits are underrated by many, but he was never going to be elite.

I don't agree. Like all sports, at the pointy end, it's those with an incredible sporting brain that differentiates them from the very best of the rest. Neitz was a terrific player, but his footy smarts were a peg below the very best and all the luck in the world wouldn't address this downfall. This isn't to put Neitz down, as his exploits are underrated by many, but he was never going to be elite.

So, is character or "incredible sporting brain" a significant or major component of an elite player? Which helps identify between a champion player and an 'elite' (champion) player...? Does the elite include those within the Hall of Fame?

Ie: - A little free-wheeling exercise I've undertaken, feel free to play critique..heres some players for discussion of which I have divided up, tell me which ones you disagree or agree with - if you want to that is....

ELITE STATUS (LEGEND) :: CHAMPION (otherwise known as very good footballer - but not elite) STATUS

Nathan Buckley :: Garry Lyon

Michael Voss :: Glen Archer

Wayne Carey :: David Neitz

James Hird :: Matthew Lloyd*

Leigh Matthews :: Ben Cousins*

Jason Dunstall :: Glen Jackovich

Gary Ablett Snr :: Chris Mainwaring

Tony Lockett :: Jim Stynes

Ron Barrassi :: Gavin Brown

Chris Judd* :: Chris Grant

Robbie Flower :: Matthew Pavlich*

*still playing

Are these players or former players fairly divided into these categories??

Personally, I think the elite column is correct. There may one or two arguments however on the right hand column..

So, is character or "incredible sporting brain" a significant or major component of an elite player? Which helps identify between a champion player and an 'elite' (champion) player...? Does the elite include those within the Hall of Fame?

Ie: - A little free-wheeling exercise I've undertaken, feel free to play critique..heres some players for discussion of which I have divided up, tell me which ones you disagree or agree with - if you want to that is....

ELITE STATUS (LEGEND) :: CHAMPION (otherwise known as very good footballer - but not elite) STATUS

Nathan Buckley :: Garry Lyon

Michael Voss :: Glen Archer

Wayne Carey :: David Neitz

James Hird :: Matthew Lloyd*

Leigh Matthews :: Ben Cousins*

Jason Dunstall :: Glen Jackovich

Gary Ablett Snr :: Chris Mainwaring

Tony Lockett :: Jim Stynes

Ron Barrassi :: Gavin Brown

Chris Judd* :: Chris Grant

Robbie Flower :: Matthew Pavlich*

*still playing

Are these players or former players fairly divided into these categories??

Personally, I think the elite column is correct. There may one or two arguments however on the right hand column..

MATY LLOYD WOULD HAVE TO GO CLOSE TO ELITE, HES KICKED GOALS SINCE HIS FIRST GAME, CRASHES PACKS, LEADS FROM THE FRONT,YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY HES ELITE, I WISH HE WAS A DEMON.

ELITE STATUS (LEGEND) :: CHAMPION (otherwise known as very good footballer - but not elite) STATUS

Nathan Buckley :: Garry Lyon

Michael Voss :: Glen Archer

Wayne Carey :: David Neitz

James Hird :: Matthew Lloyd*

Leigh Matthews :: Ben Cousins*

Jason Dunstall :: Glen Jackovich

Gary Ablett Snr :: Chris Mainwaring

Tony Lockett :: Jim Stynes

Ron Barrassi :: Gavin Brown

Chris Judd* :: Chris Grant

Robbie Flower :: Matthew Pavlich*

*still playing

Are these players or former players fairly divided into these categories??

You've got it.

So, is character or "incredible sporting brain" a significant or major component of an elite player? Which helps identify between a champion player and an 'elite' (champion) player...? Does the elite include those within the Hall of Fame?

Ie: - A little free-wheeling exercise I've undertaken, feel free to play critique..heres some players for discussion of which I have divided up, tell me which ones you disagree or agree with - if you want to that is....

ELITE STATUS (LEGEND) :: CHAMPION (otherwise known as very good footballer - but not elite) STATUS

Nathan Buckley :: Garry Lyon

Michael Voss :: Glen Archer

Wayne Carey :: David Neitz

James Hird :: Matthew Lloyd*

Leigh Matthews :: Ben Cousins*

Jason Dunstall :: Glen Jackovich

Gary Ablett Snr :: Chris Mainwaring

Tony Lockett :: Jim Stynes

Ron Barrassi :: Gavin Brown

Chris Judd* :: Chris Grant

Robbie Flower :: Matthew Pavlich*

*still playing

Are these players or former players fairly divided into these categories??

Personally, I think the elite column is correct. There may one or two arguments however on the right hand column..

Pretty good comparisons HT, but I disagree on a couple. I'd include Pavlich in the elite category. He's a victim of playing in the most maligned team in the comp. And if your champions list are meant to be just short of elite status, I'd exclude Archer. A good player who made the most of his ability.

Cousins would be borderline elite too. Maybe not quite there but at the higher end of Champion

Cousins would be borderline elite too. Maybe not quite there but at the higher end of Champion

His off field efforts that was central to the destruction of the culture at a successsful club mitigate his on field excellence.

Some great players like Hird, Buckley inspire greater performances from key players. Cousins influence went the other way.

A flawed champion in my opinion.

His off field efforts that was central to the destruction of the culture at a successsful club mitigate his on field excellence.

Some great players like Hird, Buckley inspire greater performances from key players. Cousins influence went the other way.

A flawed champion in my opinion.

I'd be more than happy to have a flawed champion like him on our list if he helped deliver us a premiership

I'd be more than happy to have a flawed champion like him on our list if he helped deliver us a premiership

Yep I'd take a 6 time all-australian, Brownlow, premiership skipper right about now too

But he wouldn't help deliver us a Premiership, problem solved

His off field efforts that was central to the destruction of the culture at a successsful club mitigate his on field excellence.

Some great players like Hird, Buckley inspire greater performances from key players. Cousins influence went the other way.

A flawed champion in my opinion.

Interesting you have hird and buckley in the same sentance. IMHO, buckley is not in the same class as hird as flags and leadership in the real big games do count for a bit in my book. taking in pre-season GF's - pls correct me if I am wrong but in buckleys time at the filth he lead them to 6 grand final losses. I couldn't help myself sink the boots in on this one!

Hird and Voss were a long way ahead of everybody else during their time and were the only 2 elite players of this era.

Buckley won a Norm Smith though so you could hardly blame him for that loss lol

Interesting you have hird and buckley in the same sentance. IMHO, buckley is not in the same class as hird as flags and leadership in the real big games do count for a bit in my book. taking in pre-season GF's - pls correct me if I am wrong but in buckleys time at the filth he lead them to 6 grand final losses. I couldn't help myself sink the boots in on this one!

Hird and Voss were a long way ahead of everybody else during their time and were the only 2 elite players of this era.

On your criteria, Martin Pike would make the elite.

FFS, Buckley has been a regular big game player for Collingwood throughout his career and almost singlehandlely lead an ordinary Collingwood side to a boilover win in the 2002 GF against one of the great sides of recent memory. He won the NSM in a losing side that day.

And Collingwood losses in those grand finals could not be attributed to his contribution.Cheap and uninformed shot at a player who was named in the Pies Team of the Century and he still played on for another 5 years.

And no Carey with Hird and Voss... dream on.

On your criteria, Martin Pike would make the elite.

FFS, Buckley has been a regular big game player for Collingwood throughout his career and almost singlehandlely lead an ordinary Collingwood side to a boilover win in the 2002 GF against one of the great sides of recent memory. He won the NSM in a losing side that day.

And Collingwood losses in those grand finals could not be attributed to his contribution.Cheap and uninformed shot at a player who was named in the Pies Team of the Century and he still played on for another 5 years.

And no Carey with Hird and Voss... dream on.

why hang it on pike, he won 4flags,you picked the wrong man there rhino .

why hang it on pike, he won 4flags,you picked the wrong man there rhino .

If you re read the post I ridiculed monty's criterion not the player. And for the record, Pike was a good footballer who should count himself very very fortunate in his career to have been associated with a number of successful teams particularly when his off field behaviour was littered with a number of unsavoury and distasteful episodes.

However there are been much better footballers that never enjoyed premiership success through no fault of their own.

On your criteria, Martin Pike would make the elite.

FFS, Buckley has been a regular big game player for Collingwood throughout his career and almost singlehandlely lead an ordinary Collingwood side to a boilover win in the 2002 GF against one of the great sides of recent memory. He won the NSM in a losing side that day.

And Collingwood losses in those grand finals could not be attributed to his contribution. Cheap and uninformed shot at a player who was named in the Pies Team of the Century and he still played on for another 5 years.

And no Carey with Hird and Voss... dream on.

Pike - Never a leader of a club, complete the opporsite IMO. immediately taken off the elite short list.

Carey I agree, my reasoning was he was towards the end when voss and hird made names for themselves so that is why I did not include him in that era, but certainly elite. My point was putting buckley into the same bracket as the other two (now 3). I just didn't rate the guy as highly as the others and not everybody can be labeled as elite only a couple and certainly from 1 era. I think we would have to agree on this.

Cheap and uninformed shot - Cheap yes, guilty as charged (its one of the filth's fav sons were talking about), uninformed - now rhino I don't recall ever seeing anyone with a PHD of football hanging on the wall, then again I haven't been over to your house yet either so I better be careful making that call as well!

He won the NSM in a losing side that day - yet failed to inspire the rest to get them over the line on any occasion.

Pies Team of the Century and he still played on for another 5 years. - I'm sorry I must have missed this as a criteria of being an elite player. Better take hird, voss, carey, robbie off the list as they didn't make the pies team of the century. I'm glad you cleared that one up for us all!