Lucifers Hero

As do a few people on this site.

This may sound sacrilegious - lets treat this like a preseason game to test a new game plan (without a ruckman) and rest everyone who is injured or has serious niggles, especially Petracca. And if Jones, Vince or Viney are playing injured rest them as well. Don't even think of bringing Weideman back in - let his knee rest. Not in any suggesting we not try to win but it is a very long season with some key people already out for a long time. It may be a chance to give someone in the wings another go. We just can't afford to risk more serious injuries. After all it is at Eithad - no place for anyone carrying an injury. Then regroup and make a fresh start vs Hawthorn the following weak.

https://thewest.com.au/sport/afl/jesse-hogan-mourns-the-death-of-father-tony-hogan-ng-b88457839z Very, very sad. Very, very sad for the young man. He has had a lot on his young shoulders. Hopefully, people will back off on him and recent performances. Hope Jesse got there in the last few days. A tough time awaits him. Hope he takes all the time he needs. Football matters not in these circumstances. Edit: A very moving update: Jesse's family were in Melbourne for the ANZAC Eve game and his father passed away in Melbourne. "The family had been in Melbourne for several weeks and Tony saw his son play on Monday night against Richmond, before Tony took a bad turn on Anzac Day". http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/jesse-hogans-father-tony-passes-away-20170427-gvtg9p.html Wonderful support by the club to keep that quiet so the family could enjoy some time without cameras and journos all over the place.

This article could be posted in any number of current threads. As it talks to how we play without ruckmen and without a 3rd man up option thought I would post it here http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-04-27/the-rule-change-causing-a-demons-dilemma Selection/game plan options: Sam Frost might get the job with Watts acting as back-up, as happened on Monday night. Watts has been good but he will be cooked if he takes on the ruck for the next six weeks. In any event, his class is needed elsewhere. Frost is a competitor who has speed and can jump, but he is just 194cm. Cam Pedersen is another option after a reasonable game in the VFL, however he may be needed as a forward to replace Tim Smith...while Oscar McDonald could go down back to replace Frost. Another option is to leave out Pedersen and use Watts as a second forward/ruckman and have Lewis pinch-hit in the ruck too. Lewis has shown he has a leap so he might be deployed occasionally at boundary throw-ins, mixing and matching midfielders as the nominated ruckman to confuse the opposition and the opposing ruckman. ...the other imperative for the Demons, particularly on a fast deck such as Etihad Stadium, will be to get numbers around the ball to stifle the opposition. It is something Melbourne is good at however its players will have to use the ball well when exiting stoppages because it will be outnumbered in other areas of the ground. Alternatively it could put numbers behind the ball, conceding the stoppage to some extent and use pace and guile to rebound hard against the opposition, creating scoring chances in open space. It's a tough ask but a good challenge for Goodwin and his team's desire to play fearless football. The last line says it all. Hopefully we can pull it off - Certainly plenty of motivation having 3 ex EFC coaches and 2 ex EFC players and a team full of players who were embarrassed by EFC last year. It has certainly become a baptism of fire for Goodwin.

In what way do you think WCE might have recruited differently? It is certainly a rule that has restricted the flexibilty of a list and of weekly team selections. WCE experience and our current predicament puts a strong case for the AFL to announce rule changes before the trade/draft period.

Did anyone notice this comment by Cotchin. "Cotchin fired an extra shot later on, noting the fatigued Dees got too caught up in attempting to make their presence felt, rather than focusing on the game at hand...“For whatever reason, the momentum swung after that moment,” Cotchin said on Triple M Radio...“It seemed as though they were worried about fighting rather than winning the footy.” http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/jack-viney-comes-under-fire-for-focusing-on-flying-the-flag-while-his-individual-form-is-down/news-story/90b6a23ea402d26051a8e567d45701a8 Arrogant sod! A few wins against weak or decimated teams and they get all cocky. Can't wait to see them brought down a few pegs.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-04-26/team-of-the-week-r5-did-we-get-it-right Michael Hibberd makes TOTW. First game after 18 months and after lots of challenges. Sensational performance! Great encouragement.

When Brayshaw is well again I think he is a much better option in the middle than Tyson. Gus can do all the things Dom can plus some.

Just having a laugh od. No I don't think we shouldn't have kept Fitzy. I think the point ManDee was making was lack of depth with only 2 ruckman because we didn't replace him with another 3/4 tier ruckman. In my mind that was exacerbated by not having a ruck/forward.

Cryptically ironic, od...

Pity

@GawnWithTheWind Would you consider deleting this thread? I haven't seen the video but based on comments/strong innuedno above, which may be totally untrue, it has shades of the Bennell in Tas hotel and Carlisle in the states stories and they both ended very badly for player and club. Jesse and the club certainly don't need the distraction. Journo's are more likely to get wind of a story on DL than on less well moderated forums. Your call GWTW

Pining, no. Practical, yes. The reigning premiers took him for a very good reason. Third/4th tier insurance. Last year he got them into the top 4. Read earlier posts and you'll see that the most of last year's top 6 clubs had ruckman depth that went 3/4 deep. The lower teams including us don't have that depth. It was high risk. It didn't pay off. No hindsight required. If we had recruited another ruckman I suggest he would have been second tier to Max rather than third tier to Gawn and Spencer. I agree those three would probably not look at us but there were other ruckman available as FA's perhaps not as good, that would get a game before Spencer. If we had recruited a ruck/forward he would be playing on a regular basis. Very few teams go into a game without 2 ruckman or 1 ruckman with 1 ruck/forward. Especially when one or two of the tall forwards each week have played < 5 games. We are using Watts as our ruck/forward but it is a game of 'rob peter to pay paul' and that selection strategy has cost us two games.

Good to see the proceeds go to 'Reach' and he is furthering Stynes' legacy on and off the field.

Lewis brings on field 'footy smarts' the lack of has cost us dearly the last three weeks. And his role is to pass on his experience to our young players. So I am rapt we have him. Both our co-capts went into their 'leadership shells' while he wasn't playing. And I didn't see signs of co-capts communicating very much on field in recent weeks when the game was on the line. So we are very reliant on Lewis playing. But what happens in a year or two when Lewis plays less and less? It doesn't worry me that Jones lacks them if Viney had them. Viney is a champ and a bull and he will make better decisions with experience but I don't think 'footy smarts' can be taught. So who do we have with 'footy smarts' that can step up when Lewis stops playing. For mine (no order): Watts, Salem, Hunt and potentially Brayshaw. The most likely to step up I think is Hunt. He made a brilliant, articulate and humble speech at our B & F - leader stamped all over him. He is inspirational in how he plays and will lead from the front - fights to the last minute. He has footy smarts and understands the state of play: last week in the last minutes asked Jones for a defensive structure at the stoppage but Jones decided to set up to go direct to goal. Don't know if it would have changed the result but it was the right idea. He is a thinking player who makes no excuses - have a read of this interview on our website. He desperately wants to win and won't settle for less. Have I convinced anyone yet? So Lewis is an asset and when he stops playing I would be delighted to see Hunt become a Vice Cap then a Co Cap with Viney. A formidable pair. The yin and the yan.

Agreed. It seems we don't have a List Manager per se. The closest is Viney whose title is Manager - Player Personnel. Might be the same thing... As I mentioned in an earlier post player List Management is a team effort, Trade decisions for short/medium needs are driven by the Coach. Drafting decisions (especially at the pointy end) are driven by Recruiting for long term list balance. I recall Goodwin saying that Roos had allowed him to make the List Management decisions. I assume this started for the trade/drafting period at end of 2015 as Roos wasn't there for the 2016 decisions. I would conclude that not getting a 'ready to go' ruckman in 2015 or 2016 was a coaches call. It fits the game plan in that we want to play a fast attacking style and one less ruckman equates to one more 'on-baller'. That would be a reasonable call but it is high risk and it has backfired.

Good point. And the bulldogs trained all of 2015 preseason for that strategy while they recruited/developed ruckman. We have been forced into it on the run. The Geelong and Richmond games show that we don't know how to structure up/play when we are not winning/breaking even in the rucks. This is literally a new ball game for us. Regardless of who we bring in we have a lot of work do, to effectively set up at stoppages without a workable ruckman. From Goodwin's press conf reaction when asked, losing both ruckman is not something the coaches had even contemplated. I think we are between a rock and a hard place and just have to make the most of a bad situation.

I don't know how to quote a post from one thread to another so here are extracts of 'hoopla's post (#100) from above thread: "Both Grand Finalists needed 4 ruckmen to get through their campaigns. Roughead / Campbell/ Minson/ Boyd v. Tippett/ Sinclair/ Naismith / Nankervis". "Injuries to ruckmen late in the season seriously affected the campaigns of several clubs - Natanui/ Lycett , Ceglar, Lobbe ( on top of Ryder), Hampson and Jacobs( with Jenkins sore). Add Sandilands/ Griffen ..... the list goes on." and spectacularly prophetic by 'hoopla' "On that display {VFL GF} we could find ourselves limping towards the finals with a ruck combination of Pederson and Watts if anything happens to Max. Recent history says that to win a premiership you've got to have 3 If not 4 genuine ruckmen on your list .We can't risk going into 2017 with Frank the only one big enough and experienced enough to cover Maxie." I understood it was 'standard practice' to have at least 3 AFL capable ruckman (see my post #23 above). Even with Spencer we were leaving ourselves short until the young guys develop - about 3/4 years.

I don't know why people are persisting with this 'its all good in hindsight' commentary. Here is an excellent thread Quote: "But, at the same time, the club's back up ruckman Jake Spencer has had some injury problems, recruit ruckman Mitch King's season lasted about five minutes before tearing his ACL in VFL round 1 and rookie Max King, now in his third year, is languishing in the Scorpions' Development League. Luckily, the Demons haven't been placed in the position of delving into its reserve ruck depth...So despite having arguably the #1 ruckman in the competition, the paradox is that it's quite possible that the club's focus in the trade and draft period will be on locating a ruckman to add to its stocks in 2017 and beyond". Embedded in the intro is a list of 'Mature Age Talent' of ruckmen and a variety of options were discussed by posters. I'm not going to revisit the details of that thread and the options, suffice to say the majority of posters saw the need for another 'ready to go' ruckman somewhere on our list. So please don't say wanting another ruckman is just hindsight. It is an attempt to re-write DL history. As I said in an earlier post - while injuries are not foreseeable blind freddy could see our ruck problem. And we were remiss not to address it when we had the chance.

Has anyone noticed if Viney and Jones talk to each other during games. Especially in time on, when the op get some momentum going or when we repeatedly lose our structures. I haven't noticed them do so and wonder if they are running their own race. Even if Jones and Viney were physically injured last night they could still have talked to each other, marshalled the troops, enforced structures etc. Those things aren't that hard to initiate are they? Those things may not always work but to take no action... ...Baffling

Yes the AFL do have form as recent as this year: The Dees and WB built up women's footy but the AFL handed the inaugural game to Pies vs Coll and it will be the opening fixture for ever more. They will create the history and our contribution (with WB) will get lost. They did it to North with the Friday night games. But they allow a team with an illegal drug culture to play on this hallowed day. So if the AFL bow to political maneuverings and replace MFC on ANZAC Eve with Rich that is it for me. No more AFL and I would become a casual observer of the Dees from afar. There is only so much being pushed around and AFL hypocrisy one can take.

Interesting question. My thoughts on other teams are that the status quo holds ie Thursday and Friday night games are stand alone so no competition for time slot. There aren't any Sunday night games so again no competition. The AFL would be crazy to bring another game into those time slots given the 'at game' and tv audience success last night. (Last night the audience was 630,00 nationally even tho it was on 7mate without much pre game promotion. That is up there with the recent Friday night game Syd vs Pies). On the Saturday night it would be a joint fixture (hopefully with the other game interstate) as currently happens. (Same thing for Ess vs Pies afternoon game ANZAC day falls on a Sat/Sun). If you are alluding to the AFL taking the ANZAC Eve game from Melb vs Rich - all hell would break lose. Hopefully, even the AFL aren't that silly especially when staring at a 'golden goose'. For mine ANZAC Eve is by far the most attractive - made special by the pregame ANZAC tribute. QB has a slight $ benefit as it is always our Home game whereas ANZAC Eve alternates. Even so, I would still take the night game vs Rich. Both clubs are making it a tradition and like you say Coll supporters are apathetic to QB.

Clutching at straws there a bit DD: Max King is no longer on our list. Boyd: 2.01m, 102kgs. Watts: 196cm, 96kgs. They are not like for like. We don't have a Boyd type. And take Boyd out of forward line and bulldogs still have other experienced tall forwards. Take Watts out and it is just Hogan/Weideman at best. Mitch King and FIlipovic are 3 to 4 years away from regular AFL games let alone being the #1 ruck on game day. Keitly as a part-time ruckman - a pinch-hitter at best. My point was our ruckstocks are thread bear for the next 3/4 years and blind freddy could see it.

...and we lost Spencer. Yet Richmond came out of it unscathed! Odd. Are we playing too many players with 'niggles' or is it our frantic, somewhat kamikaze style of play that is putting our players at risk. I suspect out 'stacks on the mill' approach doesn't help. Something esle? Whatever it is the our injury toll from games is higher than the opposition most weeks. Hope we sort it out fast.

Have to agree with rjay. It is not hindsight by posters. It was discussed at length during the trade/draft period on DL. There are several parts to our list management dilemma re ruckmen: 1) It is known that the more successful clubs have at least 3 ruckman eg Hawks, Syd, WCE. ready to play at AFL level and usually 1 developing ruckman. 2) It is known that those that don't have 3 do have (and each week select) a starting 22 player who is a backup ruckman. Think Boyd, Lobb. Jenkins. Blicvat. We don't have either so we are not protected during a game nor if our 2 main ruckman are out medium term with injuries. 3) We know that Spencer is an FA on a one year contract, expiring this year. So no guarantee of his tenure. So next year we may be down to 1 ruckman if Spencer exercises his FA rights. Probable, I don't know but certainly possible. 4) We know that King (21yo) and Filipovic (18yo) are babies in ruckman terms and some way from any AFL football let alone holding down a regular AFL ruck role - probably, 3 to 4 years away. Clearly the strategy was to make Watts the game day backup ruckman. Already we can see the folly of that. Firstly, he is not built for the role like Boyd, Lobb etc. Secondly, Jack rucking leaves a gaping whole in our forward line as we are left with one tall forward (ala Geelong, Richmond) and it has cost us two games. Yes injuries cannot be foreseen but blind freddy could see our ruck stocks for the next 3/4 years were/are thread bare. So no, it is not hindsight. And yes, it is a huge problem. Our list management re ruckman was a roll of the dice, we lost. But it needn't have been this way. It was very foreseeable. I have heard it said that while list management decisions are a team effort, trading of players is largely the coaches call to fill a short/medium term need. The drafting of players (especially at the pointy end) is primarily the domain of recruiting to build a balanced long-term list. Somewhere along the line in 2016 we misjudged our ruck stocks for the short/medium term.