Rob Mac......

Well done durango! I read he was Carltons team of the century HBF, but do you actually know he won his '61 Brownlow votes from the HBF? He played other positions in his career. I'm getting curious whether ANYONE ever got enough votes while playing on the half back line to EVER win a Brownlow? Maybe James, do you know for sure?

Old Dee: Ha, trust you to come up with it. I've been a Dee since 1954 but couldn't think of ANYONE who'd ever won a Brownlow from the half back line! Do you remember whether Glendinning actually GOT his '83 Brownlow votes from CHB or was he at CHF or elsewhere some of 1983?

Stinga, I 100% agree now and kinda suspected you meant that all along (without quite thinking your numbers through). Cheers, rob

dandeeman, I agree Jack should be and probably is aiming to be the best half back in the league and no less. ..but Stringa's expectation is still overboard because how often does even the best half back in the league win the Brownlow?

Stinga, I'm sure you don't intend it, but that's the kind of unreasonable expectation that puts unfair pressure on Watts! I'll just assume you didn't do the math. There are 44 players in every game @ 22 games per year. = an average of 0.5 BOG games per player per year and you reckon it would be just "a pretty good year and sign of his ongoing development" (meaning you'd expect better in future) if Jacks performance is 10 to 12 TIMES better than the average AFL player!! "5-6 BOG ..and the rest high level" is probably a Brownlow!! Hahah No pressure on you Jack, just win the 2013 Brownlow or we'll think you suck! ;-)

Good point BH, we need better kicking. I'll say Watts, Sylvia, Clark, Dunn (accurate long distance) maybe Tapscott and... [Davey no more, plus he won't get a game it seems]

Thanks very much bd !! Of 131 posts on this thread, this is one of the only training reviews. I'm happy to read any review from anyone who's at training.

We need Norm Smith to rise from the dead and lead the whole place from now on

Fabulous post RL. Curious to know more about this bit of it. I'm concerned about our clubs reputation, how that affects sponsorship, membership, fans etc. "We are the only team to win a game that losing would have given us a priority pick and we did it twice." That's a sign of integrity isn't it! Could someone please tell me how many teams lost how many games like that? Thanks very much.

Caro is not just reporting the facts, she's deliberately misleading and manipulating her readers. Eg. her "We tried to stop tanking" Age article today says: "Former coach Bailey said via a text message on Wednesday he would make no comment on his role in the deliberate losses until the investigation was complete,.." Here Wilson's intentional ambiguity makes it falsely appear Bailey admitted to deliberately losing by texting something like, "I'm making no comment on my role in the deliberate losses until the investigation is complete," when in fact he probably just said "No comment." That is deliberately misleading journalism from a professional writer!! ...designed to manipulate the reader into thinking Bailey admitted in a text that there were deliberate losses. Read more: http://www.theage.co...l#ixzz2AuHpTgZe

The Age is currently running 5 articles on the subject: Secrets from 'the vault' Three losses that raised eyebrows Why the Dees alone are facing probe A timeline on tanking in the AFL [One with that title should have been about many clubs over the years, but it was just about Melbourne] What they said about tanking Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/senior-demons-drove-tanking-20121030-28h3c.html#ixzz2AnP0cJBo

Getting Clark gave Neeld some drafting/trading credibility, but losing Martin for 53 and 73 sounds weak to me. Martin and Moloney may end up amongst Brisbanes better players next year, and what'd we get for them again?

I understand you. Fair enough, there is some respect. However: Though small for a 1st ruck, Martin (almost 26) is fast and the same height and weight as the "big Russian" (29) who's slow and slowing, just tapping to his feet and averaging less marks and kicks, in spite of Martins injured year, plus the anti-wrestling should hurt Mark. (Martin's also 2cm shorter and 4kg heavier than Clark) Our difference seems more subtle and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking Martin will 1st ruck better than Jamar from now on, so trade the respected Jamar now while he's some value and trade Martin in 2-3 years after he's gained value and our others are ready. I think it's sensible, but I live o/s and only saw video this year so maybe you know something I don't? ..and presumably signing Jamar for 3 years allows us more when trading than if he was an unrestricted free agent.

Virtually nothing of course, but it makes room on our list. Why do other teams see value in Martin when there's little respect for him at D'land?

Hahah ..You know that's not what I meant! I'm fine if we disagree, but just think Martin had a good 2011, an injured 2012 and could easily have a better 2013 than his 2011, which would likely mean he'd be easily our best 2013 ruck, including Jamar who's probably gradually fading now. Shouldn't a team keep their best ruck option & trade anyone else if they have to? Bate, Pettered, etc.etc., even Jamar or Bartram if necessary?

Good post. Yes I know that now, but only knew some of it at the time as a 15 year old. It blew my mind then, so I mentioned it because this thread is about such things.

Mitch's fine rucking could be used if another ruck goes down during a game. Otherwise let's keep him KPF.Spencer and Gawn are "potential" that I referred to and aren't as good ruckmen as Martin. Fine point Stuie. There are just so many I'd rather see go before Martin, who's fast (which helps the midfield) and rucks well, which helps the midfield. How good did Freo's midfield seem with and without Sandilands?

Of course we can get something for Martin! ..because he's a great athlete & probably a better ruckman the next 2+ years than anyone we've got, so we should KEEP Martin unless Gws offers pick 1 - 2 or 3, nothing less. Trading Martin for Ray sounds nuts at least to me. If we lose Martin and Jamar goes down, we're left with a few rucks who at best have "potential". One of the few things I've learnt in life is that most "potential stars," never turn into stars (in most fields). Everyone's concentrating on the "potential star," when suddenly some unnoticed guy who's been doing his homework, surprisingly comes outa nowhere and becomes the actual star. I've just had some Rutherglen Muscat which is helping me see things very clearly now. Cheers

I couldn't believe Barassi left!?!?! Thought he personified people who'd die for their team, like Norm Smith! Then when Norm was sacked the flame totally went out and I didn't really follow footy for 30 years.

They seem to update the players weights only about once every year or two.

Good on you Passenger! I'm sure us overseas/interstate members would love to see this game, plus a few brief words with various spectators. Better with a live feed, but if not it could be uploaded to YOUTUBE! With a decent camera and someone who knows the players names to call the game, there'd be a fun record.[sorry I can't get rid of the yellow highlight]

Agreed jackaub. I'm thinking it's time Martin became our #1 ruck.

Well I wish Beamer luck at his new club. ...was a fan of his playing until this year. Hope whatever messed it up is behind him, he re-ignites the flame and has a great 2013 and beyond. I'll very slightly support whatever team he plays for, EXCEPT when they're playing US! Goodbye Brent.

I don't want to trade Martin now. Jamar got taps last year, but mostly to his feet and the opposition cleared. Jamar's slow, Martin's fast, athletic and, with good health, I'm guessing he's more likely than anyone to be our best 2013 ruckman. I don't know they'll give him that opportunity, but maybe it's time for the baton to be passed to Martin! Our midfield would look much better if the tap went TO them. Gawn or someone else should be ready to be #1 in 2-3 years.