binman

Hird it too sue. He's certifiable. Kept going about bringing asada and afl to justice but could not articulate how he was going to achieve this

What a lot of troll like nonsense. It hurt my brain reading it. I went. PJ said the goals is finals or pushing for finals in 2016. He made no comment about this season at all. He put no limitations on our performance this year, no ceiling and not a hint of negativity. Where is the defeatism? Why would this year be a right off? People around me at the AGM were rapt in PJ's comments and far from defeatism the mood was triumphal. But perhaps you are trolling. More fool me then for engaging.

It's all relative

Gold. Perhaps a good thread? ie What are the worst things that can happen to a football club? Appoint a coach who worked under malthouse as an assistant Move training ground from one that people have a special connection to to one further down the Nepean highway that players hate going to Employ Steven Dank Sack a much loved elder statesman/captain when experience is exactly is what is required Have a webenar called Whiteboard Wednesday Recruit Fev and then give him free reign Other?

You and i obviously have different definitions of what a leader is. A follower mindlessly toes the party line. A leader refuses to be a sheep and stands up for what they believe in. Anyway, different strokes for different folks.

That's important

Sylvia and Maloney were often legless and played alright

With all due respect Saty - and in deference to your regular attendance at training and knowledge of what goes on at the club - i do not not need to take your word about how much Dunn, or any other player for that matter, has or has not changed on match day. I - and 99% of the other dees tragics on DL -can determine that all by my lonesome. He has most definitely changed on match day. He is still aggressive but it is a much more controlled aggression and rarely has the regular brain snaps and the stupid niggling palaver that used to punctuate his game. Five years ago dees fans and the general footy fans would have laughed if we put him in the LG, let alone made him VC. No one will be laughing today.

Sheez, of course Gary Lyon. Duh. TBH i would not have Woey, robbo or Adem.

No golden ticket required. He got the crucial pre xmas training block in, not to mention all the camp bar the last session.

Ahh i forgot Junior. In for sure. Bit tough of the Whiz though- he gave great service and was the most exciting player i saw play for the dees so gave me great joy. He went home for family reasons as i understand it

I agree (obviously) but as you say who goes on the banner is dependent on what the selection criteria is. Current players only and Dunn is a lock now. However if it say players of the modern era (lets say for arguments sake from 1990 on), then no spot for Dunn (yet). Really only Jones would get a look in from the current side. if it was the latter criteria my banner would be: Neita, Farmer, Schwarz, Jones, Brett Lovett, Tingay, Brad Green, Whelan and Glen Lovett

Precisely. Further it is instructive that the efc and hird not once raised this issue until show cause notices were issued when it it immediately became their primary concern

Remarkable how disingenuous third has been through all of this. As wj points out the Middleton case and subsequent appeal was centred on whether asada acted in line with the law. Which they did apparently. The contract between the players, efc and the afl is related but ultimately not the issue. And now it is according to third. And not coincendally also for Matthew Hardie who kept on banging on about the contract in his interview with Tracey Holmes, who then started including that issue in the other interviews she then did on this topic. Look at the narrative that compliant media people have helped run - hird the heroic one, third fighting for the rights of players, third refusing to buckle against the evil Masada/afl ogre, third the tragic scapegoat, third the moral crusader. As I say disingenuous. On the contract discussion even there third and hardie s argument is weak. Whilst the players are compelled under the terms of their contract to cooperate and anwer questions I don't think they are under oath and in any case if they refuse to cooperate I would imagine it would be very unlikely they would, at least in the short term, face any suspension and even if they did would have legal options (during which the validity of the contracts could be argued)

Why Dunny BoB? Well for one i favour current players for the banner (though i love the repsoectful images of Robbie and Jim - keepers). If you include past players where do you stop? Yes Neita is a champ of MFC but so is Barass, Stu Spencer, Greg Wells, Stan Alves, Hardeman, Farmer and Schwarz. Of the current team in my view, outside of Jones Dunn has been the most consistent player over the the last 2-3 seasons. I love players - like Jones - who are able to bring their game to a new level and particularly love players who are able to change things that need changing, for example the faux tough guy stuff you mention. It also should be noted that until 2013 Dunn was never really given a chance to settle into a position and was moved from pillar to post. Not sure the relevance of the fact that he has played 130 odd games in 10 years. That's not bad is it (given we have not played many final in that time)? In any case when was the last time he was dropped? Dunn was terrific in 2013, in a year when the team was woeful. I rate players who stand up when the team is rubbish. He was better last season. Yes he tailed off near the end of the year (something he has acknowledged) but you damn him with faint praise. If he had not tailed off a bit he would have pushed for all Australian honors, or at least the squad. His numbers at round 14-15 or so supported that view. But above all he has become a real leader at the club. He is a committed Demon. He is vocal on field and according to training watchers at training as well. He works hard, trains hard. Has pulled his head in. He is one of our best 4-5 players. So should be on the banner. One other thing. He also apparently urged his teammates at the 3/4 time huddle to go all out to win against the tiges in that infamous match where we lost after the siren. I reckon it is harder to prosecute an argument as to why he shouldn't be on the banner than vice versa.

Dunn please

I might be wrong but I don't think birds appeal suppressed any evidence to the drug tribunal

Exactly WJ. Dr Jon, of course Hird is only - and in my opinion has always only - been acting in self interest. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. But losing the appeal is not grounds for dismissal. But lord running the supplement program should have been. EFC's own report should have been enough evidence for a breach of duty as should have the interim report.

Another thing. I don't understand the logic in suggestion Hird should or could now be sacked. I don't see how losing the appeal changes anything. He still flat out refused to tow the party line and processed with the appeal against EFCs wishes. Winning or losing the appeal does not change that. edit: posted this before reading Dees2014's post. Dees2014 what is the basis for your conviction Hird will be sacked?

Predicable result. I have heard a number of people in the media, well at least two (tom ryan - a film critic - who compared Hird to Lindy Chamberlain in terms of how he has been vilified unfairly and Tracey Holmes - who is very anti ASADA/WADA and the emphasis on players needing to prove innocence as opposed to ASADA proving guilt) say the treatment of Hird has been shameful and that some apologies may need to be made when things all wash up. Who knows perhaps they will be proven correct. I doubt it but let's see on that front. But i have not heard one journo suggest that perhaps ASADA and the AFL are owed an apology. Both were roundly criticised for the process they undertook however Middleton went out of his way to suggest that ASADA had implemented a very effective process and this appeal affirms Middleton's view that the legislation actually encourages ASADA to work in close collaboration with sporting bodies (best practice anyone?). I remember Demetriou being slammed for his comments that the approach used by ASADA and the AFL would be a template for other orgs to follow. Perhaps he was right after all. I wonder if he can expect an apology from Yobbo et al?

Fair enough. But perhaps he was doing the opposite to throwing away the dream. What if he determined that if he didn't retire and get treatment his AFL dream was going down in flames and his career was finished. Perhaps he determined that the best way to ensure he he did not throw away the dream was to retire and get help. Perhaps returning was always in his mind or at the least something to aim for if he could get well. Lets say for the sake of argument this hypothetical scenario is correct. If so, given he is back at an AFL club (a wildly successful one at that) you'd have to say MC made a very smart move.

I don't understand how you can think that the fact that MC has got himself well enough to recommence an AFL career makes your assertion (bolded above) correct. I would have thought the opposite is true if anything. That's to say there is every chance that if he simply, in true Aussie bloke fashion, tried to 'tough it out' and stayed put his mental health might have got much worse, any other issues in his life might have got worse and he may have ended up quitting (or being fired) and never return to footy. I am guessing, contrary to your views that he would rethink his decision to retire, that MC and those who care about him most likely think he made exactly the right call. Supposition of course but he presumably got professional advice that retiring was the best thing he could for his mental health. I very much doubt that outside of forum posters he would have received any advice from trained professional to 'tough it out'. A quick glance at the Beyondblue website linked above would demonstrate that such strategies are likely in fact to make things much worse. Toughing it out is the very reason so many Australian men suffer from depression. And of course the less said the better about characterizing him retiring from footy to get treatment as running away from his problem (as opposed to actually addressing it which is what he has done). The fact he has chosen to recommence his career at GFC is completely irrelevant to the any discussion about his choice to retire.

An unfair characterization of psychologists and psychiatrists

Amazing how a small typo can change meaning

I agree. Though i would say that they are more likely to be remembered as "the naive, possibly stupid players caught up in the Essendon supplements scandal who seemed to have disregarded or not understood the clear message that under the WADA code athletes are fully responsible for what goes into their body and that being part of a cult like football environment where independent thought is aggressively discouraged is not an excuse for taking a banned substance" The idea that the main driver for the EFC to so vigorously fight the process in their appeal (and Tirds) is their concern for the player's reputation is the classic furphy. They should - and probably are - be more concerned with their own reputation and dragging things out to minimise the numbers of EFC players who are suspended