Slartibartfast

Fages thanks mate for everything you've done for the club, our loss is Hawthorns gain. Wishing you all the best and hope it turns out really well.

Disagree. Yze was a fantastic hardworking highly skilled player with a good dose of courage. He throughly deserved his AA in 2002. Then he changed. Having said that, I don't think he has the interest to change back.

I think there is merit on both sides of this argument, and, if I may say, some consistencies!! Brock has been a shining light since he joined the club. His second and third year produced performances that had him talked about as an emerging elite midfielder. By the end of 2006 he was in the top shelf of Melbourne's footballers. But 2007 has been a disaster for him. From memory he missed a month or so of preseason and then of course injured his foot in game one missing a couple of months. His thigh and foot injuries meant he lost a lot of fitness and therefore his ability to run. What is concerning is that having played 11 of the last 12 games he has failed to approach the form he showned in previous years. Three months is a fair time to "find form" and fitness. He's an interesting footballer. He's not fast and he's not super agile but in previous years he had the wonderful knack of "finding the ball" both in play and stop plays. But not this year. Injuries have had their impact this year but he has alway had injuries and has always played well very quickly on his return. The optimists and apologists will sweep all this under the carpet. The realists and pessimists are worried because we are seeing things we didn't expect. 2008 will tell us much but clearly the talk of "next captain" should stop. He's nowhere near it.

Not to mention Bob and Scoop who are sadly missed. Perhaps even Old55 will venture down this week. Unless he's playing on his computer!!

I reckon it says as much about Riley as anyone. I like the man.

His posts that are offensive have been deleted Bobby.

I love hypotheticals. Play him at FF. Record goals, record games, record games as captain, all Australian in both positions. FF are harder to find than CHB. You'll, of course, argue great teams are built around great defenses!! Let the arguments begin!!

Spot on, I was talking from a supporters perspective really. The difficult thing about a season like this is to know where to "lay the blame". If everything goes right you can accurately see your weaknesses. When things have gone as wrong as they have for us this year how can you determine where you need to improve? What the analysis I've done shows is that we've never really had our best team on the ground over consecutive weeks. That makes it impossible to accurately judge the list. Adelaide and Collingwood were the only consecutive weeks where we didn't lose someone. I've one mate who thinks we were a rabble based on the first half v Saints. I disagree. A half of footy is no basis to judge. Clearly changes need to be made. We've already changed our coach, we now need to assess the playing list, our preseason program, player development, drafting, trading and medical conditioning. But what I think is clear is that we are not nearly as bad as we seem.

I listened to Mark Riley's press conference and his reference (not for the first time) to injuries, settled teams and confidence. Myth or reality I thought. So for nothing more than a point of interest these players didn't play in these weeks (with apologies for errors): Round 1 v Saints 93 v 62: Frawley, Sylvia, Rivers, Wheatley, Pickett. McLean, Whelan injured first half, someone early second half. Round 2 v Hawks 116 v 94: McLean, Frawley, Sylvia, Yze, Bartram, Pickett. I njured Neitz first half and Robbo last quarter. Round 3 v Geelong 109 v 57: McLean, Frawley, Neitz, Sylvia, Bartram, Robbo, Rivers, Pickett Round 4 v Freo 137 v 92: McLean, Neitz, Johnstone, Bartram, Moloney, Robbo, Rivers, Frawley. Round 5 v Swans 109 v 60: Jones, McLean, Frawley, Neitz, Green, Bartram, Robbo, Wheatley, Whelan Round 6 v PA 76 v 71: McLean, Frawley, Green, Bartram, Robbo, Wheatley, Whelan. Round 7 v Bullies 112 v 106: McLean, Frawley, Green, Bartram, Robbo, Rivers, Wheatley, Pickett, Whelan Round 8 v WC 137 v 60: McLean, Frawley, Bartram, Moloney, Robbo, Rivers, Wheatley, Pickett, Whelan Round 9 v Kangas 79 v 78: Bate, Sylvia, Yze, Bartram, Moloney, Rivers, Wheatley, Pickett, Whelan Round 10: v Adelaide 89 v 72: Miller, Yze, Bartram, Moloney, Rivers, Pickett, Whelan Round 11 v Collingwood 94 v 81: Miller, Yze, Bartram, Moloney, Rivers, Pickett, Whelan Round 12 v Richmond 124 v 75: MIller, Neitz, Johnstone, Bartram, Moloney, Rivers, Whelan Round 13 v Essendon 125 v 123: Miller, Frawley, Yze, Bartram, Moloney, Pickett, Rivers, Whelan Round 14 v Carlton 124 v 101: Neitz, Yze, Johnstone, Green, Bartram, Bell, Moloney, Rivers, Bruce, Pickett, Whelan Round 15 v Lions 126 v 82: Neitz, Yze, Petterd, Johnstone, Green, Bartram, Bell, Moloney, Rivers, Bruce, Pickett, Whelan Round 16 v Kanga's 126 v 62: Yze, Petterd, Johnstone, Bartram, Bell, Rivers, Pickett, Davey, Whelan Round 17 v PA 163 v 74: Yze, Petterd, Johnstone, Bartram, Rivers, Pickett, Davey, Carroll, Whelan Round 18 v Swans 112 v 64: Frawley, Sylvia, Yze, Petterd, Johnstone, Bartram, Robertson, Rivers, Bruce, Whelan So my conclusion is there is no myth, it's actually fact. If I had said at the beginning of the season that those players wouldn't play those games I wonder what expectations people would have had. Compounding the physical injuries is the psychological effect of such a situation. I'm just going to put this season away, never to be opened once it's finished. What a shocker!!

How many games do we have to win to miss the 2nd round priority? Last year it was more than 5. That means we can still win 2 and get it. If it's 4 then Jack is spot on.

Those who have seen his games at Sandy over the last couple of years are used to this sort of thing. It was a great mark, but not his best.

Clint Bartram.

When you support a team it's difficult to be unbiased. But being a number one pick can also taint the view of players. Is Travis the best pick of 1997? Is Headland the best pick of 1998? Is Hodge the best pick of 2001? Goodes was taken 43 in 1997, Embley 57 in 1998 and Mitchell 36 in 2001. Early picks are generally better but there are always late picks that surprise. I don't really know what more Ricky has to do for you St. Jon. Show me another 1st year player who averages 18 possessions a game in his first 5 games. And don't tell me that they are simple outside receives or little run round behind gimmes. And he certain hasn't been playing in a team that is flying. And two of his five games have been against Grand Finalists from last year. Not easy competition. Very simply Ricky has done more in his games than Gibbs has in his. I don't know where they will end up when history is written but what is clear is we have an absolute winner on our hands for someone that slipped to 30.

Enough guys. Topic locked. Everyone had their say and Belly shouldn't be subject to such petty point scoring after a great game.

I've been as pro Belly as anyone. I've seen him play Sandy reserves, Sandy seniors and obviously Melbourne Seniors. But as always this argument is too much right and wrong (far be it to say to "black and white"). Belly has played a consistent and good season. And on Saturday he played an absolute blinder. Congratulations to him. But lets not put the tag "champion" and "star" on him. He isn't, yet. He may never be. But what we do know about Belly is the character of the bloke. 100% effort and commitment. Someone who NEVER takes a short step, someone who is team oriented and someone with significant skills and blinding speed of the mark. Someone who his team mates love playing with. But like all footballers he has areas he can improve. Let's not over react to his game. Lets celebrate it with him and watch his development. It's like everything. Those that want to see the good will see it. Those that want to pick fault will have their chance. I reckon that those who want to see the good will have more to crow about than the others, but lets not load expectation on a kid who is just starting to make his mark. Loved your game Belly. I look forward to many more.

I suspect you've played a bit of competitive sport Jack. How has confidence affected the way you've played? Confidence is not everything, but it is a vital element and therefore just attacking is not the sole answer IMO. But I do believe in the KISS principle.

I think fitness has been his issue. It, or his lack of it, has been the reason for his inconsistency.

That so many people who have used the word "they" for the first 9 weeks are suddenly using the word "we". Welcome back everyone!!

With much of the game played above the shoulders I don't think it is that simple Jack!! But ain't it great to have a win.

I share and love your passion Jaded.

Beautiful work Finksy!!!!

To quote a famous line from one of my favourite movies "What we have here is a failure to communicate" Back to class for me.

"Bruce is a receiver 95% of the time, " Geez he wins a lot of contested pill the other 5%!!

There is a lot in this thread Jaded so perhaps you missed Graz's post where he said:- "...some of the stuff written about Bruce this year however, is just rubbish. He has had more contested possession than any other Demon this year and is ranked 20th in the league. He has rated consistently in our top three for CPs, Tackles and 1%s for the last three years and people keep slamming him for being a reciever." Bruce is not a receiver, he's a ball hunter and getter in contested situations. 20th in the league is testament to his inside ability. Looks like you see the "brawn" and not the "skill and smarts".

I can understand why people get this "receiver" impression about Cam because he doesn't knock people down in getting his own ball. He wins it with smarts and skill rather than brawn. Thankfully Graz has put to bed one of the most common misconceptions in footy about Cam Bruce. I strongly suspect he'll walk away with a club B&F this year and well deserved. It's a shame there aren't stats that show the other commonly presented theory, that Brad Green is soft, is utter rubbish. I accept everyone is entitled to an opinion; it's just disappointing when it is so obviously wrong and it defames a player who has done nothing to deserve the innuendo the tag implies.