Slartibartfast

Yes you're probably right Jarka. I would have thought there are about 15 threads on the front page alone that give contributors a chance to sledge the club and highlight our situation and I'm wondering why there is a need to find other avenues to make the same point over and over again. It's time for me to butt out and stop getting upset that people feel the need to vent their spleen on people they don't know and situations they don't fully understand and let nature take its vile course. There is no doubt in my mind that "supporter" is the most misused word in footy.

Please explain the purpose and benefits of this thread. I'd be really interested to know. Or is it just another opportunity to put the boots in?

Yes, an honest article. My only point of issue, or elaboration, is that the players don't go out and "not try". They don't get together and say "augh, lets not try today". I must buy a book on collective sports psychology and try and learn. Has anyone got any recommendations?

If you thought we'd finish about 7th, but the club thought we could challenge for a flag, then obviously they see the list differently to you. Did the club over-rate the list? Who knows? That's my point. And furthermore, do you think the club has tried to overcome the faults which you admit we have, by implementing yet another new game plan to be carried out on a ground that we have never had trouble winning on before? We were terrible preseason with the "run and carry" stuff. And it was terrible against St.Kilda. But I don't think we have really done it since. We've lost at the MCG because we've had a depleted list playing without confidence. Injuries aside, what else has gone wrong this season, and who is at fault (if anyone)? Football is not a game of right and wrong, or "fault". It is a game of margins where you take risks to try and get an advantage. With a footy department of about 12 against the might of Collingwood, Sydney and WC who have about double that number our task is very difficult. My view is the injuries have been so profound and have effected the players confidence so deeply that it is hard to judge anything else. But it is clear we are not robust. I'm not trained in that area so I can't offer more. But it's the first area I'd try and fix.

Jaded, And Geelong haven't won a flag since 1963, and I bet you they won't win one this year either. So? As for Eade, he has got the Bulldogs' list much further than many other coaches could. How do you know? But you cannot be so naive to think that if we had everyone available that we would have beaten Sydney, or Geelong or St.Kilda (when we had a full list!) and especially West Coast. Has anyone beaten WC this year at Subi? And how many will? I do think with a full list we are the equal of those other teams. We beat them all last year. But you miss the point. So either his message is no longer getting through, or our players need to have their hearing checked. Just as it wasn't in 1998 when we got beaten by Saints and Geelong by a total of 180 points and then came out and beat WC in the next game. I admire your support of Daniher, but you have far too much footy knowledge to not realise that our faults and our cracks are much deeper than our injury list. You don't understand. I didn't support Daniher in my reply, I said he was not the sole cause of our problems and that given our injuries we don't have the information to judge. I am on record before the season started as saying our list was good enough to finish about 7th. I think that demonstrates that we have our faults. And for the record I support Daniher, but that is not this discussion. We needed everything to go right for us to have a real go this year, and that hasn't happen. However, I still think that without all those injuries, our new game-plan would still be flawed, and our skills still lacking. I don't think you can fairly judge. But that is up to you. Lets not get into [censored] for tat, but you can have the last say. I just don't think, judging by your response, I'm getting the message across. Can you see a parallel?

I'm amazed by the lack of rational recognition of our situation. I know I'm out of step in not slamming the club and finding fault but I'm not convinced by many, if any, of the arguments presented here. The simple fact is we have no idea what this club could have produced this season because we have not had anywhere near our best team on the field in any game. And on this basis people want to make definitive statements as to what’s wrong. IMO it's just rubbish and that applies to posters I really respect and enjoy reading. But I'll make a couple of points. 1. Yes Jaded, the club did think they were a chance if things went right. We probably didn't think we were the best team, but we thought if the planets lined up we were in with a chance. If the FD had been told before the season what would happen with injuries they probably would have thought we'd be lucky to make the eight. 2. This concept that "Daniher should work out his own game plan and people should copy us rather than copy others" is bizarre. I'll just make the observation that with our current available players it wouldn't matter what game plan we had we'd struggle to win because we are not good enough. We don't have the cattle on the park. Where is Matthews, Sheedys, Malthouse and Eades new miracle game plan this year? Eade has failed. His game plan was smashed by WC last year in the finals and was smashed by us last year when we played them in the second half of the year. BTW, for what it's worth, Thompson last night said Geelong had developed "run and carry" over the summer. So there is another failure in "original thinking". Game plans don't just appear, they evolve with the game. 3. For all I think KD's original point is a very good one can someone tell me how you can relate our lack of performance to this single fact? Do people really believe we're no good because of 15 kgs between 10 players? How do you know what McLean's weight loss means, he may have been significantly better than last year? IMO you can't make the connection because so many other major things have happened you can't isolate just one. 4. As for having a go a BB, what rot. Neita, Bartram, Robbo and McLean have had impact injuries. Nothing to do with BB. It's a bit of a miracle Moloney is even playing given he could hardly walk last year. Whelan had concussion and then an ankle, Wheatley a shoulder, Jones an ankle, Johnstone a wrist, Frawley stress fractures in his foot and Ferguson a thumb. Rivers has had hammy problems all season, but my understanding is it's back related. Green had a two week hammy and Whelan a soft tissue injury for a week or so. 5. This game is played above the shoulders as much as below them. We lack confidence. That leads to tension and uncertainty. As a result skill errors are made, decision making is slow and unsure and performance is significantly reduced. I'm hurting as much as anyone. But there is no magic bullet, there is no villain, nobody has failed to try, nobody has been negligent and there is no single factor that has caused or can fix our situation. So stop trying to shoot Daniher and blame him for everything. To do so is just wrong. I look forward to seeing our best team on the field this year with a bit of confidence. Until then I'll reserve judgement.

Good post KD. This season, which promised so much and has delivered so little, is almost impossible to judge. It was to be the season that would show whether the moons would line up with our youth and experience and allow us a crack at the flag. We'll never know now. Our two best youth players (Rivers and McLean) have played 4 of 16 games. Neitz a few more but clearly inconvenienced and Robbo 2 games. Whelan has hardly been sighted and Pickett... enough said. A team that needed everything going right to have a crack has had things go terribly wrong. Having said all that, no wins from 8 games is an unacceptable result. What would have happened if those key players had played? We'd have won games, but how many? What we can't judge is the impact the injuries and the loss of games has on the confidence of the players and the team . But it's significant. All these things compound to make a list, that as Graz say is still sound, look terrible. What part of the result this year is game plan, what part list and what part coaching? What is clear is that we are not robust. Whilst Sunday was terrible I'm not actually drawing any conclusion from that performance because we weren't the first and won't be the last team to be comprehensively trashed by a class outfit on their home soil. The vitriol of the websites and the cruel comments made by "supporters" about the players and the coaching staff is their domain. It's the ugly side of human nature and football. But the ones that face a most difficult time are those charged with the responsibility to administer our club into the future and at the moment they are facing the prospect of having to make those decisions without the relevant information. I don't envy them and I feel for those that have put in so much only to see the season, and the inevitable impact it will have on the careers of many, ruined.

And I'm saying he's anything but a liability in the AFL. He's a good solid AFL player when fit. But as you say, each to their own. The FD have the final say.

I'm a bit sick of the Wheatley bashing. In his games with MFC this year he was good with his kicking being a level above most of his team mates. Thankfully the FD can form their own view. I think they like Wheatley and whilst he is not a matchwinner he is certainly solid AFL standard when fit. I reckon you're wrong on this one DD. I've not seen any of Newton last three games but 2.6 is not usual, he's a good kick. He's really starting to do well at VFL senior level now and while he'll struggle to get a go (with Robbo coming back and Dunn doing well) we are seeing consistent improvement. That's very encouraging and puts a lot of pressure on the FD to give him a go. Thanks for the reports everyone.

Jack I wasn't suggesting you were part of the kickfest. You raised, not for the first time, your concern over our kickins. My comment about the kickfest related to this site in general, not you. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. You are a constructive and a thoughtful contributor here. I fully agree that you, and everyone else, is fully within their rights to voice an opinion based on an impression. I responded to you because firstly you are more thoughtful than others and secondly you were very strong in voicing your impression as shown by your responses below: "Unfortunately, Rhino, ND is too conservative in his approach to play youngsters, unless there's absolutely NO other option. We've suffered as a result." "We're being VERY cvonservative in our approach to playing Newton and Buckley. Yet, curiously, we threw Garland to the lions." There doesn't seem to me to be much equivocation in those comments. I'd be interested to know whether you have changed your impression as a result of the mischievous facts I presented and you now believe Daniher to be one of the more adventurous coaches when it comes to playing youth.

I can't come to grips with the desire to take one of the few players we have with the X factor and make him into a half back flanker. The kid has never had to mind a man in his entire football career because he was too busy winning games for his team. I like the idea of Belly into the centre, but with Petterd, Whelan and Bartram injured I think we need him down back too much. Take him out and we haven't got an accountable small in sight.

Deanox he just won a rising star nomination, has been in our best 6 in both our games and has averaged over 20 possession. Settle lad!

I must confess that I've only read part of this thread, but I just hope beyond hope that Cam is available for the next couple of games as he takes on Brad Johnson and Chris Judd, players who in the past he has done very well against. Those suggesting he is other than a wonderful player for us should contemplate who we would play on these players if Cam is not around. Good luck Cam.

Beautiful stuff YM and TimD. Love your work!

JJC I'm not here to go scrambling to the record books and stats sheets everytime you or anyone else makes an observation about our club. But I have long contended that Daniher, against popular belief, does give the kids a go. So as I had presented that view I sought to back it up with some research. Same number of players as Bullies, many many more games. We are not equal with them, we are ahead of them in terms of playing youngsters. Jack there are many many people on this site wanting to vent their spleen on the club at the moment. And fair enough, we are all bitterly disappointed. But why are you critical that a couple of posters want to try and present the other side of the argument that supports the clubs approach? Of course there are areas of our club that are not perfect and need improvement. That's stating the bleeding obvious. But don't expect me to come on here and indulge in the kickfest. I don't want to and I don't intend to. Anyway it's your turn now JJC, you can do some work and come up with some "pesky" facts to back up your contention that our kickins are as bad as you say. You might be right or you might be wrong. At moment we just don't know and I don't have a strong view on the issue. But I await your research with interest.

Golf Biff, gold!!

Wheatley was good until injured. IMO he can still play. Not a star but a good footballer in a good team. Miller has been unfairly bashed, as is often the case when so many have put so much behind an opinion. TJ will be much better when he can play his natural game rather than have to make up for the loss of McLean and Jones. Ferguson didn't want to go to Hawthorn so the trade didn't go ahead. I must say I find the criticism of this "failure to trade" quite laughable. I can't remember anyone supporting it at the time, but now the club was "stupid" not to accept it.

The link above didn't work for me. Try this one: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/com...5E19742,00.html

YM you talk the greatest load of garbage of any poster. Keep it up. Some positivity amongst the gloom. Sensational.

No problem Redleg, happy to do so. Cheers Fan

JJP I posted this in January this year. IMO it's not true to say Daniher doesn't give youth a go. He may not play youth as much as supporters want, but how does he go compared to other coaches? Have a look at this remembering "first year" is 2006.... Melbourne First year players got 30 games. Bartram 22 and Jones 8. Neville and Buckley didn't get a game. 2nd year players (there were only 3) got 25 games last year. Bate 14 and Dunn 11. Newton, didn't get a game. Of the 2002 recruits Bell 12, Smith 1, Rivers 22 and Ferguson 3. Hunter has been delisted. Of the 2003 recruits McLean 18, Sylvia 17, Johnson 9 and Davey 22. 159 total games awarded to 15 players still on the list recruited in this period (2002, 2003,2004,2005 ). 10.6 games per player. Brown, Bizzell, Nicholson, Wheatley, Motlop and Read, as mediocre experienced players, spent long periods at Sandy. Not all "medicore" players got games and not all youth got games. There was a sensible mix. For the Western Bulldogs the following happened: 2002: B. Murphy 0, Wight 8, Faulkner 3, Walsh 0, Minson 13. Total: 24 for 5 players 2003: Cooney 24, Ray 21, Iszac Thompson delisted. Total: 45 total 3 players 2004: Griffen 24, Tiller 0, McCormack 4, Wells 0. Total: 28 for 4 players 2005: Higgens 5, Addison 2, Baird 3, West 0. Total: 8 for 4 players. I chose WB for comparison as they finished in about the same place as us on the ladder and they have a highly respected coach. Of the 105 games given to their (young) recruits of the last 4 years Cooney, Ray and Griffen got 69 of them. They also have 15 on their list recruited in this period. Average games per player - 7. Melbourne gave 51.4% more games to "youth" than the Bulldogs last year. Also you compared us to Swans. For most of the year the Swans were in a similar ladder postition to us. Yet they played little or no youth. I'd contend that the myth that Daniher doesn't play youth to be one of the commonly accepted misconceptions of supporters. JJC I'd invite you to do the research and show that compared to other coaches Daniher doesn't give youth a go rather than just guessing with no research support. Also, excellent analysis of the Collingwood situation RR. Malthouse really was brave wasn't he. Where is his bravery in relation to his two high first round draft picks, Reid and Brown? They were taken at 8 and 10. We've blooded 2 who were taken at 30 and 46. Pesky facts....

I don't understand the criticism of Wheatley. He has been one of our best the last couple of weeks IMO. BTW, he hasn't been dropped, he's injured along with Whelan, Jones and Green. Ward and Bizzell have both been dropped, a big statement seeing we've got so many injuries.

Not this week.

http://demonland.nozzs.org/forum/index.php...=4265&st=40 The thread I've referred to above makes interesting reading and highlights just how far we are off, and have been off, our best team. It also highlights how disappointing certain players have been so far this year. But I've linked it because I argued that Clint Bizzell had a spot in our team. Clearly the selectors didn't agree because it has taken this level of injury and lack of form for him to get his chance. Good luck Clint, have a great game and help us win our first game.

What a fantastic post. Thanks Graz.