beelzebub

The better 'one' may indeed be an 'outcome' ...not just player for player.

Of course I wouldn't expect you to comprehend. You probably do the easy crosswords too. We actually play more fluent football without him I'd argue. Just like you the whole thing became too Hogan- centric. Have you read Red Fox ? If not do so...it's about a team orientated bloke that emphasised team play. The abilities of individuals are to be welcomed...but if you suffer the folly of allowing that to dictate the team suffers He knew a thing or two. Again WB...how are we travelling without Hogan ? Dare to answer ?

One of the most ridiculous comments yet. Have you not been paying attention . Many of those 47 were in the bullying games. He kicks very few under pressure against harder opposition. So the value isn't quite what it seems. Of course he's replaceable. We've had to cover him often. We're covering him now. We're traveling ok are we not ? Tmac has kicked more from less games. I'd challenge the veracity of the idea one person replaces another in pure goal kicking. It can be argued a better performing team is less reliant on individual return and more upon what teamwork provides. But still.. even if say Weed stood up for 1 and half goals per game.. that's 30 odd. The likes of Vanders would be good for similar.. there's 60. I fully accept it's all numbers and hypotheticals but then so is much of the hype about Hogan.

People seem to have fabricated this "super Hogan" . He is good but nowhere near the super prodigy some make out. Hogan is actually replaceable. Gawn isn't. I'm also in the camp that thinks maybe he's better suited to a half back role. But then again...where and how ? As a true CHB with Lever and Pig either side...Is Oscar behind ? Possible I suppose. It again poses the very question that sparks all the debate. Is that the best outcome for the Club and team balance. It's not about him... it's about us...as a team/club.

You realise what no B$ means ?

and ScoMo was Malcolm's Mate... Simon might want to focus on the finals ( and best of luck to that... we'll be happy chappies ) The EOS bring any of a 100 surprises. The coach has input...but not final say. The whole purpose of this thread is about the merits of a trade, the worth etc. We'll let the club have final call on the event. No one here really can do that eh.

Strangely the coach ISN'T the last word on lists. If coaches controlled everything... we'd never lose.

It is ..some can't help themselves.

In what manner...trust me...you have an audience

I think an argument goes along the lines that if you were to entertain trading Hogan then many ( as do I ) think you do it now when the value realised is a very useful currency in other recruiting/trades. Ie it is possibly/probably more beneficial to the CLUB now. It may be more beneficial to Jesse later. Either way should he go he won't be impoverished

@sisso et Al I don't see this being a case of anything really coming out of the blue. I would be astounded if it were to transpire that suitors haven't been in constant contact with his management. I'm not suggesting just haphazardly shopping him. Ever since he announced himself on the footy stage there's been talk of this that etc. If he figures as concrete in MFC plans... All well and good. That said we have had to on more than one occasion adjust to life without Jesse ... recent times as example. I'm sure the club has contingency should he be seduced home. Hogan falls well and truly under the 'what if' scenario. The reality of life is that sands shift. I would want we aren't caught napping or smugly content and that we can act prudently and quickly should that door open. I'm all for the club...and club first. Again...if the best result for the club is sans- Hogan then that's fine. Others seem to think he's a must keep. I don't.

The way some puff their chests with pompous indignation; surprised they don't explode. It would be insanity ( of a fashion ) and certainly arrogant stupidity to suggest any list is at its zenith and not requiring betterment. I'm certainly glad none of these patronising know-all types have anything to do with my businesses... they'd be broke in a year. The list will change come EOS. Dynamics unknown to we mere mortals often come into play then. Indeed some are only born then out of opportunity. Go Dees

I think something many need to step back from is any individual preferences for players. Many simply want Jesse to be part of any Demon future...and then align an argument to suit. I want the best possible team..best possible coaches etc. This may include Hogan...it may not...it certainly doesn't HAVE to. We've actually won a lot of games without Jesse. We played ok yesterday. I've no real preference...but very happy to entertain offers whilst his value is high. It's about the club making sure it's always on the fastest escalator.

Yes. A very distinct difference.

Played ok without Hogan ??

If said star is effectively incapable of delivering on that STAR ability....what is the value ??"Stars" arent untouchable I very much doubt this is the end of this story. Cheers

This is a question of curiosity. Why are so many prepared to put the player...before the club ?? Thats not to disrespect or dismiss the worth of anyone...but clubs win games/win premierships.. So says the great North Smith..and he knew a thing or two. Maybe we listen to his words a bit more and the curse might lift ?? Im not the only one here suggesting a balanced reappraisal of his worth/position to Melb is warranted. These are professional footballers who whilst playing for a jumper are actually incredibly well remunerated. He was brought in as the classic messiah /silver bullet type draft. Getting him will fix everything. He's but one player. At times very good, at others woeful in attitude. There may well be reasons for that but just like fitness..you cross that line you better be focused....or go sort life out. Thats not said in nastiness...just maybe what some need to do..Other players have. He struggles against better sides.. Arguably isnt helped by some coaching/selection but what is..is. If he get nullified in games where his real footy ability would be real handy..what value that ?? Im not opposed to playing him down back @binman will recall we discussed this exact notion in other thread only to be howled down by those ...you know...know it alls!! I dont think he's ideal as a mid either...smart yes...slow to react at times.. that burns play. Hes a very talented footballer...i just dont know what his position is now at Melbourne. Too many better coaches have figured him out. Ours needs to too and quickly .

The notion of depth caters to a requirement of a 'tomorrow' etc.. Its a little like a bird in the hand ,..two in bush etc.. You are always better off with Someone who can...as opposed someone who might... Jesse might make a Mid...others already ARE. Im a bit over everything is for down the track.. we are actually in the here and now. We need to play that way...imho

Where were Judd...and Buddy ?? Its horses for courses etc

It's a business. Get used to it. My concern ... and interest is winning... Winning a flag. Having a competitive team. I really couldn't care less who's in it. It's actually irrelevant ( to me ) . It's about a team.

There are established kids who bring more to the game. That's the point.

How bout we simply get a mid ,or two, that knows what to do ?

The impact to his possible market value is of course real. I personally don't think that would figure largely in the case of his likely suitor(s). The notion of him being traded, or simply going home is as old as his AFL career. I.e..not all that sudden an idea.

Funny ... in a fashion, in this thread some sanity prevails and a reasonable discussion of the good/bad/ otherwise of Hogan even allows the floating of the idea he play HB. Elsewhere it's lampooned. I never quite got that. Tmac was a fwd when younger. Indeed when drafted ( iirc) it was to play fwd. For whatever reason that didn't last long and he played down back ... until the clever idea of moving him forward. Hogan was a back. Might explain his god awful approach in kicking So why would you not think it a possibility to play him there. But ... he was brought here ( Dees ) to kick goals. His effectiveness is severely reduced against decent opposition who have worked out how to nueter him. Net result those games ... not a lot really. Games against less capable opposition he can/not-always have a day out. Could be argued that anyone could kick those goals. So is Hogan of any profound use only then ? This is where some, and I agree, think that Hogan's value to us may be best realised ... not playing for us. Many folk are now simply trying to find where to put him. For mine it's the trade table. Not because I don't think he can play. He can. I just don't think he's the 'result' we were all hoping for.

Meanwhile back at the ranch... I noted an article ( behind paywall...but quickly read at cafe ) ..Jay Clark HS ..other day writing along lines some here ( myself included ) suggest as to are we better/ worse ..with or without Jesse and what is his actual value...is ..as player...or tradable asset ? Almost like he read this thread ?? I still think it's a valid question deserving of more than dismissive rhetoric. Is he necessary to a flag ? I don't think as much as what his worth might get in some A mid(s) etc.