Doggo

Yes we have!!!!!! It's not much, but we have ONE... and what a win it was... (52 points down at 1/2 time ring a bell? )

McLean Green The two clear standouts for me. Then a raffle... Jones Bruce Miller Wheatley PJ Aussie

Yes i did see his game against Cox, he was sensational. From what I've seen in the past, and my best mate who is a mad Essendon supporter agrees, that his ruckwork could be better. His recent games have been an exception to the rule with Hille normally. FWIW i quite like Hille and do rate him highly, but i think it would b fair to say that as a player and a ruckman, his tap-work is not one of his strong points. He has definitely stepped up a cog this year in that regard though, meaning there is hope for guys like PJ. It wasn't long ago that Hille was barely breaking even in ruck duels.

Hille's not the best tap ruckman. He's very handy around the ground, is a decent mark and can kick a long goal, but i wouldnt call him a 'gun ruckman'. He's like PJ, but unfortunately for Hille (and Essendon) he's had to wear the brunt of the #1 ruck position for the majority of his career, when he could easily have been one of the best #2 ruck/forward in the league. It's just that Laycock is no good, Ryder is a KPP and Bellchambers is very raw. Essendon are stuffed if Hille goes down, much like we've been in the past with JW's injuries. Cox is a freakish talent and will always be a #1 ruckman, much like White in his younger days, but WCE also have Mark Seaby who is a more than formidable AFL ruckman, and WCE were arguably best when Cox/Seaby were sharing the ruck duties 60:40 (% time in ruck). Cox is playin #1 ruck for them at the moment without Seaby, and due to a number of factors, that included, his influence has lessened. IMO, they arent using the Cox/Seaby partnership to its full advantage.... do i smell a tank? I really like the idea of 2 equal (or near equal, though in most cases one will always be better the other) ruckman sharing the ruck duties at a ratio of roughly 60:40, as opposed to what we have seen with our use of White in recent years, more like a 75:25 % ratio. This year the Campbell/Taylor (Haw), Hudson/Minson (WB) combinations have worked very well and are perfect examples of 2 capable but not exceptional ruckman doing better than one superstar and one relief ruckman. In recent times Lade/Brogan, Jolly/Everitt, Cox/Seaby, Ottens/Blake/King etc. have all been similar successful partnerships also.

I've never known Matthew Whelan, Brent Moloney or James McDonald to squib the contest or not put their head over the ball, ever. I read on here recently that Junior may have done it once as a youngster and quickly learned from it. He is now one of our most courageous players and has been for years. The above three IMO, along with Jones and McLean, are the guys on our team that absolutely never, EVER refuse to put their neck on the line for the team. Dunn needs to take a leaf out of their's, or someone like our Nathan Brown's book, when it comes to courage and selflessness.

Just a strange question given that your suggestion that he could possibly be our new #1 ruckman was made based on his career-best game on the weekend, incidentally, where he played the majority of time in the forwardline. Not a strange question, actually quite a good one. Just strange in the context of the sentence...

Its a very good question. I liked Dunn very early in his career, but i must say i've lost a lot of my enthusiasm for him. He had a very good game on Goodes, but, as has been much talked about already, blotted his sheet with some rather 'soft' attack on the contest. You're very right- his strengths/attributes don't equate well to him playing forward, and like Ling (who started as an NQR KP forward with a big engine), a midfield stopping role seems a natural progression for him away from the forward line. I think he's done some very good tagging jobs this year, but as of yet has not been able to gather more than 15 disposals in a match on the counter, and being a tall midfielder, doesnt show enough courage or conviction in the air when dropping back inside defensive 50. Trouble is, other than playing in that completely negative role in the midfield, he has not shown any other real glimpses that he may actually become a productive offensive run-with player in the future, like Ling, or even in fact, a productive player. I'm reluctant to write him off, because i see he has talent, but he doesnt strike me as a natural enough midfielder to win his own footy, not instinctive enough, and, as you said, he's NQR when played as a tall forward.

And its still probably better than Jamar's left (prefered) foot!

He did play really well on the weekend, but not in the ruck at all. Seems a strange question. FWIW, yes, i think he could play as an equal #1 ruckman. Not in the true #1-ruckman role that Jeff White has played, but in a 50/50 tandem partnership (like Taylor/Campbell at Hawthorn) with another ruckman, be it Jamar, Warnock, Naitanui or Meesen. It all depends on whether one of Jamar and White leaves at the end of the year, or DB's possible intentions to use PJ as a permanent forward target. I don't believe having a #1 ruckman is really the way to go these days. More and more clubs are using two capable ruckman in tandem, rather than one specialist and one relief ruckman, and the over-reliance on having your gun #1 ruckman is, or at least should be, a thing of the past. It's an unhealthy dependance that often hurts clubs, as it's hurt us in the past, should the #1 ruckman go down.

Was about to say the same thing. Will do his defensive side a world of good getting a tagging role, and could be another string to his bow to help him gain selection.

Good post. Agree completely.

We must indeed be watching different matches then. 'AdelaideDemon', I'm assuming that you wouldnt get to too many live MFC matches, though i could be wrong? I think it's a lot harder to completely judge a player without being at the ground and seeing what they are doing off the ball, how their morale and body language is, whether they're putting their body on the line for their teammates, how they bring others into the game... etc etc. Whitey was one of my favourites for many years (1998-2005), but what i've seen of him last season and this year to date, has been very underwhelming. His stats are very good, but its his lack of influence on the game that i find most worrying. I attend as many matches as i can in Melbourne, and one thing I've noticed almost every week is that Jeff's pretty poor when we don't have the ball and does not run hard defensively at all, as well as not always going in the air when he needs to when in the backline. As an older player and perceived leader around the club, he needs to lead by example. That means doing the hard things, getting back to help the defence in the marking contest, bullocking work in the the midfield and drifting forward where possible and hurting the opposition ruckman if left unaccounted for. These are things i have not seen enough of from JW this year. Not just picking up easy touches behind the play. Forgive me if i'm being harsh on him, but he has set his standard high in the past, and you're kidding yourself if you think he is performing anywhere near to that standard, or been 'quite good' in most games. Jeff White can have 25 disposals and 25 hitouts in a match (those are 'elite' numbers), but still have no influence at all. IMO its because the majority of his possesions are uncontested, short wide kicks or backwards handballs, and his hitouts go nowhere. He rarely seems to play with any real 'bite' or passion anymore. His disposal lacks penetration or 'hurt-factor', i.e. he can get a heap of the footy and use it reasonably well on most occassions, but is never really dangerous or damaging with the ball. In both his desicion making and ability to bring teamates into the game. His ruckwork, particularly hitouts to advantage, has been well down on what it was at his peak. And he seems to be brushed aside too easily at boundary throw-in's at times. For a big bloke, he lacks physicality and rarely makes his presence felt, something that both Jamar and PJ do much better than he, and IMO his skill level, and in particular decision making, having gotten progressively worse since 2005-06. He's never been particularly damaging as a resting forward, even at his best, and he's no better at it now. And hitting the body hard isnt something he's particularly noted for either. AND... he's now on the wrong side of 30, and we are in the early stages of a rebuild not expected to hit full stride for at least another 3-4 years. Carrying him for 2 more years during the rebuild, just to reach his 300th game, sentiment aside, is hardly going to help the development of our other ruckmen. Why play a player whose best is well behind him ahead of guys whose best footy is still ahead of them? PJ, Meesen, even Jamar, and Naitanui and/or Warnock should they be on the list next year, all have their peak ahead of them and need time at AFL level in the next 2 or so years while we're down and rebuilding before our next serious premiership contention. I do agree with u that Jamar is awful. He has had 6 years and ample opportunity to show us he can play, and has left us all wanting. His dominance at VFL is something he's never been able to transfer to the big time, even after over 50 senior games, and its seems pretty clear he's not up to AFL standard as he has shown very little improvement over that time. As much as i dont like him as a footballer, i think he needs to be given some more games in the run home this year, if not only to raise his (very low) trade value. He is contracted next year, otherwise i'd say he'd be a certain delisting come years end, and could possibly still be depending on his last 8 weeks. Gotta defend PJ on this one though, as always. lol Having seen a lot of him play in juniors, and following him week-to-week since he came to the club and won the VFL Liston Medal in 2005 (after 8 BOG's in 8 games), i can almost certainly say you're wrong in your assumption that PJ's skill level is 'awful'. It is actually one of his great strengths. His skills are very good technically, definitely as good as White's. He has a textbook kicking style and generally his ball-use, by both hand (where IMO he is better than White) and by foot, especially short-mid range field passing 25-40m, is elite for a man of his size. His mobility below the knees is also expectional given his 199cm frame. The main issue he's had to date has been a lack of contested pack and one-on-one marking and aerial judgement overhead, though this is something i think he has improved on tremendously since he arrived at the club in 2005. He's equal 3rd in contested marks for us this year with 7 from 9 matches, behind Miller and Neitz (yes Neitz, STILL 2nd at the club for contested marks) and equal to White (who has played 3 more games). His career has been ruined by injury so far, but i'm sure with an extended run in the seniors, gradually more responsibilty and, say, 20 more games into him- he will become a very good player for the club as a forward/2nd ruck. With more confidence, games like the one against Sydney, and more goal scoring opportunities, will be the norm for him. I'm sure of it. If DB plays him exclusively in the role he played against Sydney for the remaining 8 (?) games of the season, i'll guarantee he'll kick between 15-25 goals come seasons end.

Yes he can. Regardless of contract status, no single player is 'exempt' from delisting. If youre crap, u can get delisted! Obviously we would have to pay his contract out though. Not saying we should necessarily, i've been quite impressed with him since he got back into the team. Just making the point that guys like CJ, Jamar and Meesen, who are all contracted next year, are not completely safe from the axe. Although the MFC isnt exactly in a position to be paying guys contracts out, even low-profile players. But it is possible... edit: I'm not 100% sure, but i believe the only contracts that a club cannot pay-out are 2-year contracts given to draftee's and rookie's who have been drafted interstate.

Wrote this in the 'votes' post, thought it was more relevant here. Lynden Dunn had a strange game for me. IMO, I saw all of the best and worst of what Dunn has shown us in his career, in the one game. Much like Melbourne weather, he had 'four seasons in a day' today. He did an outstanding job in containing Adam Goodes to just 12 disposals and a goal- showing himself to be a more than capable stopping midfielder against elite competition. His run and 4 bounces thru the centre was very dashing and would have been one hell of a goal had he dobbed it- showing that he has the pace and ability to carry the footy and be a penetrating runner. Overall, his ball use was pretty tidy and in the 3rd quarter he found a bit of footy when we started getting on top. But... On more than one occasion he looked like he squibed the contest. Especially in the air. I know he has never been considered a strong-mark or particularly good overhead, but today he just looked hopeless. Like PJ did 3 years ago. His inability to help Warnock in one marking situation late in the game, where he had the run at the ball but opted to wait for it to land in his lap, rather than attacking the footy and putting some body in, really highlighted it for me. Also a couple of times when he had the footy in space, he seemed to hear footsteps, and rushed his disposal under pressure. Generally today he struck me as a guy who didnt really have the commitment to put his body on the line for the team. Something that i've seen on more occasions than i'd hope for. He was very good at his role today on Goodes, and seemed extremely task-minded and disciplined in that regard. But there was more than a few occasions where i was bemoaning his lack of physicality in helping out his teammates, and not leaving Goodes at appropriate times to attack and defend for teammates. His inability to win his own footy is also of some concern. Good game purely because of his job on Goodes, but i'm still waiting/hoping for Dunn to come good. Didnt deserves votes from me today.

I would really like to see PJ and Jamar used in the same fashion as Taylor and Campbell at Hawthorn. Neither of those two are anything special, but together they are a formidable combination. I see PJ's natural position to be as a forward/ruckman, and think he could learn a lot from spending some serious time in the guts. He's never really been given that opportunity to lead the ruck division, or at least even be an equal partner in it. A 50/50 ruck combo will ensure that we never again grow an unhealthy reliance on any single player as we did with White, and allows our ruckmen to develop more freely.

He definitetly has the scope to become to a very good player in any single position, if given the opportunity to play there for 22 games a year. Whether it be as ruck, FF/CHF or as a gorrilla backmen. I still believe his best position would be as part of a ruck duo similar to the system used at Hawthorn. No single #1 ruckman, but 2 equal ruckman working in tandem, one resting in the forward line. I think had he not had so many injuries, in particular that shoulder in 06, he probably would have been firmly entrenched in the side by now. He may not have cemented any single position in the side yet, but he's versatile and has obvious talent. And thats more than we can say about our other ruckman at the moment...

I've seen lots of PJ play since juniors, and i think he could play as a permenant forward quite well. He's got good hands, is big and strong and works hard to present. But i also think he could be a pretty good ruckman if given the chance to play the #1 ruck role. He may not be exceptional at any single role that he plays yet, given he's never been persisted with for any great deal of time in a single position, but i've always believed its more a matter of "when" rather than "if" with PJ. He's always looked capable, but to date has been cut down by injury everytime he's gotten himself firing. Fingers-crossed he can keep himself fit, because he showed great signs today of becoming the player i believe he could be.

Given PJ's encouraging performance in the forward half, and Dean Bailey's reluctance to use him as a ruckman today... would this suggest that we may have found a permenant position for PJ? I wonder if DB's intentions are to keep Jamar in the side next week against the Lion's? Or will he be dropped and PJ play 2nd ruck again? Or will White get the chop after another uninspiring performance? So many questions, so few answers... I actually thought Jamar was the better ruckman of he and White today, in terms of his actual ruck tap-out effectiveness. Our midfield seemed to be able to read his taps more naturally, and generally we seemed more competitive when he was contesting in the middle. But, as is the way with Jamar, to go with his 20-odd hitouts today, he only gathered 6 disposals, a couple of them dodgy, and was non-existent around the ground. His only influence is purely in the ruck contest. This lack of versatility is an area of his game he has not been able to improve on, and likely never will. He's like a shorter, slower version of Aaron Sandilands. But, somehow he was still more effective than White today. JW had a very poor game IMO. Clearly outpointed by his own 'once-upon-a-time protege', he often took too long to dispose of the ball when he had it, or made silly skill and decision errors, and was completely nulified in the ruck by Jolly. His possesion count was down on previous weeks too, and he got less hitouts than both Jolly and Jamar. Now, White is considered the "#1 Ruckman" at the club- has been for the best part of a decade, and is one of the higher paid, more senior players at the club. He is 30 (i think?), has played 250 games, was AA and been a club champion... etc etc. In other words, he's a well respected player at the club with an impressive career honour roll, and is expected to perform at a high level every week as the mentor to our younger guys PJ and Jamar. He's the automatic selection for ruck eack week. His performance today was not good, and while his stats have been impressive so far this season, his influence has been almost non-existent. This is where the debate gets interesting... Given that it is unlikely White will be around after next season (or maybe even after this season), and Jamar is still contracted next year, and White was poor today...PJ is likely to always be more a forward/2nd ruckman, and Meesen hasnt shown much but not yet been given (or earnt) his chance and is contracted next year too... Does anyone else think its likely White may be dropped this week before Jamar? Or after the break? I've loved watching Whitey over the years, but he is just not the player he used to be anymore, and his disposal and decision making has hit the slide. I now genuinely wonder whether its better having him or Jamar in the side. Not because i rate Jamar either, which doesnt say much for White these days. I really dont rate Jamar at all and he has had a very long time now to show something that he never has (that he can play footy). He would surely be considered an 'endangered species', despite his contract status. But given his contract status, and the way White has been playing (and the fact White is in no way part of our future)... What do people here think is the most likely/more desirable outcome for the last 10 weeks of the season for these two players, Jamar and White, as well as Meesen? Scenario A: White is played as the #1 ruck, with PJ #2, and Jamar coming in on the odd occassion like today, when DB wants to play all 3. If this were the case, it would seem almost certain that Jamar's contract will be paid out at years end and he be delisted, and White probably play one more year in 09. We then draft one of Naita or R. Warnock, and Meesen/Spencer are retained. Ruck stocks '09 A: White, PJ, Naita or Warnock, Meesen, Spencer (rookie). Scenario B: Like today, White/Jamar sharing the duties 50/50 with PJ playing full time in the forward line. In this scenario, it gives Jamar a chance to save his career and honour the last year of his contract with a strong finish to the season, and Jeff will probably play the year out and ask for another year. However, PJ's development as a ruckman will be stalled. And Jamar is no guarantee to cement himself as an AFL standard ruckman and could still be delisted if he doesn't show some improvement. Meesen/Spencer retained. Ruck stocks '09 B. White, Jamar, PJ, Naita/Warnock, Meesen, Spencer ® Scenario C: A "rebuild" of our ruck division happens over the last 10 weeks. White is dropped and not re-selected in the side unless he forces himself back in (ala Yze). Jamar and Johnson split ruck duties 50/50 (like Hawthorn's Campbell and Taylor), Meesen is given a game when DB wants to play PJ up forward, and White (is asked) to retire at years end. Meesen possibly delisted, Jamar possibly traded/delisted. We also pick up both of Naita or R. Warnock. Spencer retained. Ruck stocks '09 C. Jamar (possibly traded as part of a deal involving Warnock), PJ, Naitanui, Warnock, Spencer ® IMO, scenario A seems most likely but least beneficial to our future list management, with B next, and C least likely but most benefical. Will White play out the year because 'he deserves it' for his contribution over the years, or will PJ/Jamar/Meesen get more opportunities and responsibility at White's expense, with a view to the future? NOTE: This post is not intended in any way to be a "Jeff White bashing" post. Just a constructive discussion...

Thanks grazman. I've seen a lot of PJ from juniors all the way up to now, and whilst he's never been the best mark above his head, his hands out in front of his face have always been vice like. Well suited to that kind of role. His kicking is also very good- at junior level he was an exceptionally accurate long kick- so i think its a case of confidence more than anything. His technique is textbook perfect, esp for a man of his size, and drilling that goal from 50 on the boundary today wouldve done his confidence a world of good.

I get the feeling that he's either carrying an injury, or has still not regained full match-fitness since he did that hamstring a few weeks ago. He just didnt look quite as sharp as usual, even almost got ran down by Darren Jolly of all people!

Just watched a bit of footage and saw there actually was another instance, where Dunn needed to commit to helping his teammate and didnt, that resulted in a Barry Hall mark and goal on Warnock (in the 2nd qtr maybe?). It just wasnt a good strong-enough effort IMO. I hope he can improve in that regard because he could be a very good player if he were able to assert himself more physically on the game.

I got the impression that PJ was shifted up to CHF/HF flank in that 3rd quarter and Miller was pushed deeper. Or, both players were starting inside 50 and pushing up hard to the footy on opposite flanks, but i wasnt at the ground so i cant say for sure. PJ really got on his bike in the 3rd term, seemed to me that he was playing true CHF and charging in off the line at centre clearances. He did seem to play at FF for the majority of the match though, and to my memory only competed in one centre ruck bounce? But in that 3rd quarter he definitely looked like he was playing CHF, and doing it really well! His strong marking and leading in particular, in tandem with Miller, really helped to straighten us up and were the main catalyst to our turnaround after half time IMO. He looked big and agile and almost too quick for Leo Barry and Ted Richards! FWIW, I liked Miller's game today too. Continues to work hard, even when the chips are down and he gets no easy supply. He'll benefit a lot with improved output from the midfield i think.

Yeah you're right, it was LRT not Hall, good call. I said (more like screamed) the exact same thing at the time... "why didnt he HIT HIM!?" Probably why i forgot who it was who he should've been hitting! Problem is its not the first or second or third time we've seen this from Dunn. He has been a repeat offender in that regard.

Lynden Dunn had a strange game for me. IMO, I saw all of the best and worst of what Dunn has shown us in his career, in the one game. Much like Melbourne weather, he had 'four seasons in a day' today. He did an outstanding job in containing Adam Goodes to just 12 disposals and a goal- showing himself to be a more than capable stopping midfielder against elite competition. His run and 4 bounces thru the centre was very dashing and would have been one hell of a goal had he dobbed it- showing that he has the pace and ability to carry the footy and be a penetrating runner. Overall, his ball use was pretty tidy and in the 3rd quarter he found a bit of footy when we started getting on top. But... On more than one occasion he looked like he squibed the contest. Especially in the air. I know he has never been considered a strong-mark or particularly good overhead, but today he just looked hopeless. Like PJ did 3 years ago. His inability to help Warnock spoil against Hall in one marking situation late in the game, where he had the run at the ball but opted to wait for it to land in his lap, rather than attacking the footy and putting some body in, really highlighted it for me. Also a couple of times when he had the footy in space, he seemed to hear footsteps, and rushed his disposal under pressure. Generally today he struck me as a guy who didnt really have the commitment to put his body on the line for the team. Something that i've seen on more occasions than i'd hope for. He was very good at his role today on Goodes, and seemed extremely task-minded and disciplined in that regard. But there was more than a few occasions where i was bemoaning his lack of physicality in helping out his teammates, and not leaving Goodes at appropriate times to attack and defend for teammates. His inability to win his own footy is also of some concern. Good game purely because of his job on Goodes, but i'm still waiting/hoping for Dunn to come good. Didnt deserves votes from me today. Anyone agree?

Sorry if this thread has already been started elsewhere. Gutsy effort today by the boys, but a bit of inconsistent umpiring and our own inability to play 4 quarters hurt us in the end. We played one fantastic quarter of footy (the 3rd), and i'm sure DB and the boys will take a lot from todays games against a tough, dicsiplined Sydney unit. My Votes: 6 - Brad Green 5 - Paul Johnson 4 - Matty Bate 3 - Chris Johnson 2 - Col Garland 1 - Paul Wheatley