Doggo

Just saw a replay. My votes FWIW... 6 - B.Miller 5 - Davey 4 - C.Johnson 3 - S.Buckley 2 - P. Johnson 1 - Martin Garland, Bate and Valenti all stiff to miss out. I find it really hard to give votes without seeing the game live.

It could very well be... McDonald 211 games, Yze 269, White 265. 745 games of experience there!

My thoughts exactly. I hope Valenti is persisted with, and Bartram has been getting better. Possibly Bell may make way, but i thought he was ok last week. Junior will most likely fly over with the team as the 1st emergency and only play should there be a late change. I don't think he will play for Sandy this week, even if he doesn't play against Freo.

I don't know about you, but i'm not happy playing with 17 men on the field (even if for only 25% of the time) which is effectively what we are doing when we play Jamar. He's improved, but considering where he was prior to this season, expectations of him have always been low. I think you're definitely underestimating PJ, as well as the fundamental value of having a player who is confident enough in his own foot-skills, and 'up to AFL standard'. That's my main concern. It can be the difference between winning and losing a Grand Final... Consider this: There's 0:30 odd secs remaining, 29 minute mark, we're 4 points down, in last qtr of the Grand Final... The ball is deep in our defense and we're playing a heavy flood. It's then cleared out and worked forward thru a long kick, eventually marked by Jamar, forward of our defensive flood in space, no teammate within 30m of him, just forward of centre wing. There are only 4 players on the ground forward of he as opponents rush to get back. As soon as he marks, instead of immediatly playing on and kicking it inside 50 quickly, he opts to go back on the mark and wait for a teammate to receive the handball, as more players run forward... The crowd pleads with him to move it on as he waits for a free teammate to run past... He has no idea how much time is left on the clock though... Seconds tick until eventually he offloads a handball to a player running past who bangs it long to a huge pack 20m from goal... The high kick is spoiled by the opposition ruckman and defenders running back into the hole, just as the siren sounds. The Demon's lose the GF by less than a goal. Mark Jamar's lack of skill, footy-nous, instinct, initiative and confidence in himself to run and kick the thing single-handedly costs us a premiership... !!! I know it's only hypothetical, but it makes me ill just thinking about it. Mainly because there's a fair chance it could happen if he ever played one. For this very reason i'll never subscribe to keeping Jamar over PJ, unless he can improve DRASTICALLY and prove me wrong in the last few matches of this year (unlikely). RR, it's time to drop the outdated preconceptions of what PJ has been/done in previous years, and look at how he's played this year. Back up some of your claims with some evidence once in a while. There's been steady improvement in his form in 2008, and whilst he had just a so-so performance against the Bulldogs, he did land heavily on his head (flying for a pack mark) in the 1st qtr, yet still managed the best ruck hitout efficiency % of any ruckman on the ground, as well as more possesions than Jamar, from much less time on ground. His rucking has never been a strength, but it has improved to an adequate level and his total effective hitouts % is better than both White and Jamar, according to this article from the Age: http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/2008...259.html?page=3 And if the stats say anything else, PJ's contested marking has been markedly better than Jamar's as well this year- Paul Johnson has taken 7 contested marks from 11 matches, Jamar just 3 contested marks from 9 appearances. Johnson's 1%'s stats are also up on Jamar's, 28 to 15. His commitment spoiling in the air has been another big improvement, and something that has rarely been questioned this year. I believe his physicality has also lifted immensely this year. He's got the body, and in my eyes, he's beginning to use it very well now. He shepherds quite well, and is generally a good tackler, and is selfless and team-orientated. Actually have a look at him when he's in the ruck, and in the air, next time we play. Pay close attention- he's not hopeless the way you believe he is. If u do get to watch the replay of the WB's game, pay particular notice to the time he spent in the ruck against Hudson... he outpointed the Bullldog's 'star recruit' in almost every contest they had. Stats don't always show the whole picture, but they do say alot, especially in regards to rucking.

That doesnt make sense. If we were getting Warnock, why keep Jamar and trade PJ? You just said u dont rate Jamar or PJ as ruckman, yet you'd keep Jamar, whose supposed strength is his rucking, over PJ who offers versatility and skill Jamar doesnt? The very fact that PJ is more versatile and can be used in other positions on the ground, as well as adequately play a relief role for our #1 ruckman next year, makes him far more valuable to us IMO. PJ would probably attract more interest, but only just. The fact he is not playing as the #1 ruckman now doesnt help raise his value, and the fact Jamar's playing #1 raises his significantly. They're both lowly rated at the moment, and in any case, we'd be lucky to get a 3rd round pick for either of them. I don't see why anyone would want to keep Jamar over PJ purely because he's "a better ruckman", if we should have Warnock filling the #1 role next year. I'd rather a versatile, mobile #2 ruckman to compliment the giant Warnock, than the lumbering Jamar playing a relief role and having no impact at all. No use having two 'giants' with questionable skills, who do nothing around the ground in the same team. Warnock is an upgrade on Jamar and PJ, but is no certainty to be a quality player yet.

Another interesting stat: PJ had 9 hitouts @ 33% (i.e. 3) to advantage. Hudson had 11 @ around 10% (i.e 1) to advantage, and Minson 4 HO, 0% to advantage. Our rucks clearly won, but we still got smashed 22 to 33 in the clearances.

No he CAN'T! His skills have always been very shonky, and his kicking is equally bad at VFL level as it is in the big time. It's not confidence, it's skill level. There's a reason he never wants to kick it, and that's because his kicking is fundamentally flawed. I've been impressed with him too, but mainly due to the fact that my expectations of him are VERY low. A case of 'rose-coloured' glasses, if i've ever seen one... B)

Re: Hudson, its not one poor game i'm judging him on, but exposed form over his career. Ruckwork is one aspect of the game i've always been very interested in, and i pay a lot of attention to ruck contests at all games i attend, whether Melbourne is playing or not. I've seen the Bulldogs play live on 4 occassions this year, as well as many times on TV, and i'm convinced his technique is no better in the ruck than our own PJ- who can't even make 1st ruck in the 16th placed team, yet Hudson is virtually playing lone ruck for the 2nd placed team. Re: Street, i'm not talking him up, merely stating the fact that it is expected that he will beat pretty much everyone in the ruck, just as is it expected his opponent will murder him around the ground. I know rucking is more than just taps, like i said, i agree he's no good at AFL level. Read more thoroughly. Would Hudson be playing first ruck at Melbourne? Jamar and PJ have both been patchy over the years, especially Jamar, but it's obvious DB rates rucking technique quite highly, otherwise PJ would certainly be preffered as first ruck over Jamar. Hudson's ruckwork is inferior to Jamar's, but like PJ, he is clearly the better player. Would he be our starting ruckman? Be honest.

I agree, almost completely. The Bulldog's would be dumb as dog-sh*t to pick up White, but stranger things have happened. White has traditionally played very well against the Bulldogs in the past too.. My one point of objection is... Did u see Hudson ruck against Jamar and PJ yesterday? If u weren't there, or didnt take much notice of the ruck contests, have a look at the replay and tell me if i'm still underestimating his ruck work? He was completely useless and had no influence at ball ups and throw in's at all. Our guys jumped all over him! Had a look at the stats and saw he only got 10 hitouts for the day, but would have easily rucked 80% of the game. Jamar had 20, PJ 9, both with a higher effectiveness. IMO his midfield make him look good, and have done all year. I've seen a fair bit of the Dog's this year and each time i've noticed his ruck technique is very underwhelming. He doesnt seem to time his jump well, if he's even jumping at all. And it was the same at Adelaide. Why do u think they were willing to part with him (and Meesen) last year? (It seems they don't teach their ruckman too well down there). He has been in good form this year for them, but he's playing in a tightly drilled unit with one of the better, quicker midfields in the league... A 'gun recruit' i seriously think not. He's nothing more than a good solid player, best suited to being a #2 ruckman, but currently capable of holding the #1 spot because of their midfield strength this year. His ruck work is and always has been NQR, but his ability to find the footy around the ground and win the contested ball is what makes him capable at AFL level, and his ground workrate at the stoppage is of elite standard for a ruckman. But he's not a particularly strong mark either (bit like PJ). He's no #1 ruckman and the Bulldogs will know this, as he was drafted with the intention to share the ruck duties with Minson 50/50. But with Minson now playing as a forward, there will be an opening on their list for a ruckman of some experience to share the ruck load next year, given Street will likely be delisted. And on Street... He would probably beat 14 out of the 16 best ruckmen in the league at the ruck hitout duels, but is incapable in all other aspects of the game. That's why he's a 3rd stringer. Not because he can't ruck. Getting beaten in the ruck contest by Street is par for the course, mainly because of his height. Not many guys other than Sandilands can really challenge him in ruck contests on his day. He just no good at anything else (bit like Jamar). I'm just repeating myself now though, i seriously wonder if people actually read my posts completely before replying.

You need to learn to 'get your hand off it'...

They key word there was 'occasional'...

I prefer PJ in the ruck to both of them. I'm glad White has been dropped to give us a chance to rebuild the ruck stocks, but think PJ should be spending more time on the ball than he has in the past 3 weeks. It's nice that DB has put his faith behind Jamar over the last month, and he's benefitted from it. Johnson would gain just as much confidence from a stint spent playing the lead role in the ruck, and considering his upside is far greater than Jamar's, the result could be very rewarding. It's easier to teach a big guy to learn to mark and ruck, than it is to teach them basic skills, how to run to the right positions and win the footy, make good desicions and use it well... isnt it? Not to mention PJ's better natural athleticism. Playing #2 to Jamar is an insult in many respects. Yes, Jamar is a better 'ruckman', but PJ is clearly the better footballer. I might be alone on this one, but i still think PJ offers us much more in the ruck for the future than Jamar, and hence should be playing at least a 50:50 rucking role now, rather than relieving Jamar off the bench and resting in the pocket. At the moment they're probably rucking at a 65:35 ratio (could be a ploy to raise Jamar's trade value perhaps?), with PJ spending more time up forward, but IMO PJ really needs more time developing his rucking this year, before we draft a Naitanui or R. Warnock and start developing them. With Newton back in and Miller playing closer to home, and Sylvia and Bate occasionally getting the odd bag of 3 or 4, we don't need PJ in the forward line as much as we did a few weeks ago when he played well there against Sydney.

I was there with my two cousins from overseas. Ideally would have liked a better performance and first impression by our guys, but my cousins did enjoy the game and atmosphere. I actually thought the crowd was decent considering it was 1st vs 16th, and both clubs are at the lower end of the membership market.

Read my post again. White would be our equivalent to Hille - Hille is better and is in his prime, White is past it but still capable of playing as well as Hille on his day. They play a very simliar game, but Hille gets the points as he's younger and more capable up forward. Has 2-3 years left, but won't be there at their next flag. Hille > White - But only just. White is finished, but was heaps better in his prime, which Hille is at now. Jamar to Laycock - Both not much good, depth at best. Break even. Unlikely either will be there when they challenge again. PJ to Ryder - PJ is a better ruckman, Ryder better KPP. Cancel each other out. Cant even compare the two really. Break even. Likely both will be filling different roles throughout their careers. Spencer to Bellchambers - Too early to call for either, so automatic break even. If we consider White is our 'best ruckman' and is only not getting a game for development's sake, and Jamar and PJ our #2 and #3 respectively, PJ and Jamar are better than Laycock and Bellchambers at this stage (their #2 and #3), so if Essendon were to lose Hille and have to play play without their #1 man (effectively what DB is doing by dropping White), our ruck duo would be far better than theirs.... See what i mean? BTW... How did u know i smoked? lol

Yes i have read the thread. I said that as an 'aside'... just a thought. Stranger things have happened, i dont particularly think it will happen, so theres no need to jump down my throat for what i believe is nothing more than a thought provoking topic. And FYI... Street is one of the better tap ruckmen going around, not just at VFL level but in the AFL, and is not in the Bullie's side only because he doesnt offer much in the way of offence and is generally too slow and limited. A lot like Jamar. Hudson and Minson are both inferior in terms of ruckwork, but bring other things that Street is not capable of in versatility. Most ruckmen get beaten in the ruck by Street, but kill him around the ground.. I for one don't particularly rate White in his current state and hope he retires at years end. But I think if he still wants to play on and is told he no longer part of our future plans, preferably i'd rather get a trade for him then have him walk into the PSD. A team like the Bulldogs, who believe they are a chance for a flag and have a deficiency in the ruck, might be willing to bargain for a 30+ yo with a view for short term success. They might be looking for another ruckman given Street, despite his obvious proficiency in the ruck contests, doesnt have the speed or skills set for AFL and will likely be delisted, and Minson may become their FF. White may not be much good in the ruck anymore, but from what i saw of Hudson today, he is miles ahead of him in the ruck duels, and would be seen as that 'short term upgrade' of Hudson. Hudson is a good clearance player once the ball hits the ground, but is no better in the ruck than PJ. The Saints picked up King AND Gardiner and IMO = White >>>> BOTH The Swans picked up an old Everitt a year after drafting a mid-20's Jolly. If the Bullies got White, it would be a very similar situation to that one. So who knows, maybe another club may be willing?

... sorry, missed that earlier post... I hate it when people do that to....

I think he'll retire. As has been mentioned recently before, he's just sold his house in Melbourne and is looking for a property in Queensland to move with his wife and pursue a golfing career. While it's not set in stone, that fact, coupled with his recent exclusion from the team, and the amount of game time Jamar/PJ are getting as part of their development, is as good an indication as any that he'll call it a day. As a side-note, maybe he could go to the Bulldogs...? As i saw today, Hudson and Minson aren't much good in the ruck duels, and Minson looks like he's being groomed as a gorilla FF. White and Hudson as a tandem ruck team with Minson full time forward could sound very inviting for them, especially if they make the top 4 this year and believe they're a shot in '09...

I think their ruck stock is probably overrated, if anyone actually rates it. Hille is an excellent player around the ground, dangerous near goals and has shown a lot of improvement in recent weeks in his ruck work. But he's something like 27-28 now, and will probably be finishing up his career by the time they make their next premiership assault. And they're in trouble if he goes down. Laycock, from what i've seen of him, and also according to my Bomber supporter mate, is not much chop at all, and is playing on the reputation of one good anzac day game back early in his career. Definitely no better than PJ, probably equal to Jamar, which is no compliment. Bellchambers is young and raw, played a game or two so far in his 1st year, but is being kept out of the team by Laycock, who would probably be delisted/traded at years end, which indicates he's still a fair way off from playing seniors regularly. Ryder, who was originally drafted as a ruckman, is developing nicely as a key defender. Other than the above players mentioned, i dont think they have anyone else. We've got a better ruck division than them, even with doughnuts Jamar and a White decline. Drafting a ruckman to take over from Hille will be one of their great concerns going forward you'd think, as like Jamar at Melbourne, Laycock has shown himself too limited to make an impact at AFL level.

Not much he could do considering the quality of the delivery Minson got. Martin got the better of Minson on the lead, more often than not, and Minson got a couple of lucky goals.

I agree with both these points. I thought Bell wasn't as bad as many here have said, and did a pretty good job in his time on Brad Johnson. Still looks a bit lost when he has the footy, but his work defensively is underrated. PJ came off after almost taking a HUGE hanger right in front of were sittting on the flank, and landing straight on his head. He took his time getting up, then was escorted off the ground very gingerly. Thought that would be the end of his day due to concussion, but he came back on a few minutes later and effected a brilliant spoil running on from the wing. I thought his second half was a lot quieter, but after landing on his head earlier in the game, did his job, relieving Jamar. Given his level of comittment, i doubt he'll be dropped. His ruckwork was pretty good today too, as was Jamar's. As an aside, i noticed the Bulldogs ruckmen, Hudson/Minson and, at times, Wight, are really horrible in the ruck duels. Is it just me, or are they just really bad? Like almost Messen-like bad in the contest. They were basically completely ineffective at getting their hands to the footy at the taps, but to their credit, come into their own in other areas of the game. Minson kicked a few goals (one from a very dubious free), and Hudson is fantastic once the ball hits the deck, but i couldnt believe how poor they actually were in the duels. Our guys completely dominated the ruck IMO, but thier midfielders seems just so well drilled at sharking the footy from opposition taps, much like IMO Collingwood, whose ruckmen also arent of the highest quality. Our miidfielders need to get better in this regard. There's no use Jamar getting a million taps if the opposition keep taking the footy.

6 - Garland (quickly becoming 'the General' of our defence. Beat Murphy and created plenty off HB) 5 - C.Johnson (plenty of the ball and generally used it ball well, as well as being good defensively) 4 - Buckley (showed lots of dash and ball-carrying ability, and an improved defensive workrate. Kick was also better today) 3 - Martin (shades of J.Rivers about this bloke, but in a bigger body. Courageous in the air. Beaten a couple of times by unstoppable disposal but he looks very promising) 2 - Bruce (got stacks of the ball but didnt use it too well on a lot of occassions. Havent seen the stats yet but wouldnt be surprised if he got over 35 touches. Needs to improve his handballing skills, but otherwise led from the front, and if not for errors, wouldve been BOG) 1 - Miller (got 3 goals in junk time, but it was just reward for his hard work in the previous 3 qtrs)

I agree... This award is the most obvious and shameless cross-promotion i've ever seen really, in the history of sport's marketing... The Army's current series of ad's make me sick, glorifying war and heavy weaponary... But as u said, the topic has been very well exhausted, so i'll leave it for another day. Still, would hate it if PJ didnt win this round. If he played for a Collingwood or Carlton, he'd probably win it in a landslide, but because his opponents are from those teams, voting will definitely be very close. I guess it'll depend on how many non-Melbourne supporters saw the play, and felt compelled enough to vote. I know PJ won over a lot of people from other clubs with that single display, so i hope a few of those heads vote. Would be great for PJ's confidence, and for the club as well, as all the good publicity we can get regarding our young playing list, the better.

Go get a life mate...

If he loses this week it'll be the biggest load of crap i've ever seen. The word should've been "Inspiring" chase... I really hope he wins it. It's clearly the best chase by a ruckman/big man this year! I'd hate for Lockyer or Stevens to take it out purely because their clubs have more supporters.