titan_uranus

That quote was Pert actually, from Collingwood. GWS' quote was gold: "Personally, I don't see Melbourne in an extraordinary circumstance. "You've got 18 teams in the competition. Someone's going to finish 18th, 17th, 16th … I don't think their problem has been access to young talent. "In fact they've probably had more access to young talent than most clubs over the last 10 years. "I think the important point that people miss sometimes is there are cycles you go through. "St Kilda is at the bottom at the moment, but probably had eight-to-10 years when they were right in contention. "That's what the system is designed to do. "You have outliers like Geelong who for some reason defy gravity, and then you have outliers like Melbourne who haven't been able to get up. He starts off with the 'they've had their fair share of high draft picks' 'argument', which of course goes to show how many years we've finished at the bottom of the ladder. Then he says we're an 'outlier' who hasn't been able to climb the ladder. Outlier. That's exactly what the PP is there for. What a moron.

You say that like it's a rule. Unfortunately for you, it's complete nonsense. There is no reason why bringing in a kid who has been developed elsewhere is necessarily worse than developing one from scratch. In fact, given our track record, if anything I'd suggest the opposite. Again, I'm glad you're not in charge of our list management.

I'm glad you have nothing to do with our list management.

Which articles were those? I only remember seeing this one: 'Tom McDonald says Demons deserved boos after AFL loss to Giants'.

The argument that we don't 'deserve' a PP has no merit. None. Sure, Hawthorn/Geelong etc. haven't had a top-5 pick in ages, whilst we've had a fair few. But that's because they've been winning premierships whilst we've been winning nothing. Sure, GWS managed to fight through adversity to pull off a great win, whilst we hoisted the flag. The very fact that this can happen, that our players are incapable of playing 22 games in a row without turning in a performance that reeks of a lack of care, indicated exactly how far behind we are and that we need help to level out. Sure, we've had high draft picks before. But how did we get those picks? From finishing at the bottom of the ladder. And that PP we already got? From finishing with 4 wins in back-to-back seasons. Sure, we haven't helped ourselves of late. Again, that's the point. We have continued to wallow for 8 years. Sure, we may have some potential stars on our list. But we don't know yet. That's why they're 'potential'. They mightn't come good. And we can only focus on the 'potential' in our list because there's no 'actual' in it. Now, all that granted, I don't believe for one second that a PP changes everything. It doesn't. We need to continue to fundamentally change our culture, our ethic, and our list, and one PP does not do that. But it helps. That's the point. It helps.

What is the point now? If they play well, or even just OK, what do we do? Sign them up for another year, and watch them do nothing for 20 rounds again?

I'm more than happy to look at our current game plan in the mould of Roos focusing on the defence first. If, in 2015, we are not able to increase our scoring, then I think you will have much more of an argument. But where we are coming from, I'm happy with the decision to focus on stopping the onslaught first, getting that under control (to an extent), and then working on offence later.

So for you, a season is solely based on a week-to-week proposition? So after a win we're all of a sudden much better than last year, but then after a loss or two we're worse? You have to view the season holistically. Yes, Sunday was a disgrace. It was also the first real time we've played like we did under Neeld, all year. That's 19 previous games, in a row, in which we performed at a level above last year. To write them all off in favour of the most recent result is nonsensical, myopic, and wrong. 2014 exceeds 2013 in many regards. The fact that we are not able to avoid performances like Sunday's shows we have a long way to go, but it does not mean we haven't come somewhere in the meantime.

I hate hearing this so much. People going on about how we don't 'deserve' it. We obviously haven't done anything right the last 8 years and we could have done a lot better, and if we'd done those things better maybe we wouldn't be here right now. But it's not about 'deserving' anything. If we gave draft picks out to clubs that 'deserved' them, like they're some sort of reward, we'd give one to Hawthorn or Sydney this year. Don't they 'deserve' a great draft pick for winning the flag? No, we don't 'deserve' one. But we (arguably, at the very worst) need one.

B: Jetta McDonald Howe HB: Toumpas Dunn ?? C: Vince N Jones Viney HF: Kent Dawes ?? FF: JKH Hogan Pedersen R: Gawn Tyson Cross I: Watts Salem ?? ?? I'm backing Toumpas in for half-back. We need someone who can actually kick the ball coming off half-back and instead of going looking for one elsewhere I want to back us in to get Toumpas into that role. No certainty, obviously. The other half-back is missing. Pedersen to play third tall forward and second ruck. Jamar's past it and I see enough in Gawn for him to take over. I don't have Garland or Grimes in the side. Not convinced either of them is worthy of a spot. They may slot into that empty half-back spot, or we may bring someone in to take that. We also need someone else rotating mid/forward, plus another two midfielders. Trengove may be that mid/forward, which I'd be happy with, but we'll wait and see on that. Michie might be another mid on the bench, but again not sure.

Terrible timing (could we have opened ourselves up to criticism any more by doing it today? Absolutely woeful PR), but if we don't get it this year, I can't imagine a club will ever get one.

There's no doubt that what happened yesterday was pathetic, an enormous step backwards, and a blight on the year. Even with it, 2014 far outranks 2013. We won four games. We should have won another 3, and we could have won a further 2-3. Last year we won 2, and that was that. In a competition with more crap clubs, too (i.e. this year is more competitive).

The fumbling is a good observation. Add the running in and you've got three key issues to work on this summer. We don't spread hard enough, we don't transition from defence to offence fast enough, we don't see enough repeat efforts, and we don't lead properly (too many leads together, too many leads to the kicker's wrong or disadvantaged side, too many leads to the boundary). We're also still not fit enough.

There are further issues than that. We don't run hard enough, due to a lack of runners, a lack of fitness, and today, a lack of work ethic. That means there's no overlap run giving the players options by hand, or options to kick to out in space. Another issue is that most of our players are timid and don't want to be the one to turn it over. That pressure makes them look sideways and backwards for someone who is unmanned so that they can pass the buck and let someone else try the harder kick forwards. The lack of spread and the lack of confidence are just as bad as anything.

Whilst I agree that he's struggled, being a forward in our side is impossible. He doesn't take many marks because the ball is kicked above him, or at his feet. He doesn't kick many goals because he's being sucked up the ground too much. There is simply no comparison between how we deliver the ball to our forwards and how the other 17 clubs do it. I guarantee you almost every forward out there, from Franklin to Spencer White, would be a shadow of their current selves at Melbourne. Despite all that, his field kicking is shocking and he's had people running around him far too often on the rebound. His goal kicking has been good all year though; need to keep him a bit closer to goal IMO (prevent him trying to pass the ball). But most of all, we need to give him a chance.

Good post. The damage that the previous two administrations (Bailey and Neeld) did to this club cannot be unravelled in one year. Nonetheless, some of the issues that came to the fore today, like badly repressed memories, I thought we'd moved past. I'm shocked that they're still there, even taking into account everything you've discussed.

We will continue to be unable to make use of high-end draft picks unless and until the culture at the club fundamentally changes. I thought we'd done a lot of work this year to push beyond the kinds of efforts we saw today. Clearly that is not the case. Turning over the list might continue to assist, but as it stands, a priority pick won't do us any good if we're not able to rid the mental problems plaguing the side. For that reason I'm not fussed about a PP at all. If we get one, fine. If we don't, fine. Either way the focus of the club has to be on fixing the current group of players, the majority of whom will be here next year.

Said he was embarrassed, that we gave up, that we've given up on the season, and that you can pick whatever game plan you want, if you can't execute basic skills then it doesn't matter. The challenge for him is to work out how to fix these. How do you teach players who have been playing football for years how to kick, if they don't already know? More importantly, how do you rid players of the mental issues that plague them whenever the signs of a loss start appearing?

Kent was terrible today, not just for his disposal. He has a bit of the Bleases about him. Willing to run when there's a chance he can kick a goal, but when we're defending or when the hard work needs doing, goes missing. I like that he wants to kick goals and he has scoring ability, but there is more to football than being a showpony and Kent needs to learn that.

Yet another example of how misguided the argument is that these games are meaningless. That's as bad as anything we did under Neeld. We've seen this year that we are capable of playing decent football. To then turn up and perform like we did today is absolutely disgraceful. I am struggling to believe that, in Round 21 of 2014, we are having to go back to discussing which players actually put in the bare minimum effort. To be outrun by a bunch of kids down to 1 rotation is indescribably disgraceful. A list that, with a few exceptions, is totally bereft of confidence. Heads drop at the slightest sign that a relatively poor side is besting us. Our players have no confidence, no drive, no initiative. The foundations that I thought were there earlier in the year now look shaky. Roos was terrible today. Turning on him like some are is just misguided in the extreme, but that's not to say his coaching today was any good, as it wasn't. Why move Dunn forward? He was one of about 3 players doing well where he was - moving him forward took him out of the game, and put him in a position he isn't anywhere near as good at. Dunn's second half was a write off. We also continually played into their hands, affording them time and space out the back of the press which is just what they wanted.

N Jones, Tyson, Jetta, Gawn. Maybe McDonald. I can't believe in 2014, after what gains I thought we'd made, that I'd be giving votes based on those who put in the bare minimum effort. I genuinely thought those days were behind us.

He's nothing like McKenzie, terrible comparison. One is hard and tough but slow with no skill, the other is pretty much the opposite. That's not to say Melksham is any good - he's not, he's soft, lazy, and generally just adds nothing to the side.

You mean 'leppa'? They lost by 100 points last week. This week they beat a side that was down to one rotation for a half and was missing maybe its 5 best players. Good win for Brisbane, sure, but not even close to 'coach of the year' making stuff. If Adelaide loses to North and Collingwood loses to Hawthorn, each of Adelaide, Collingwood and Richmond finish on 11 wins. It comes down to percentage - granted, Richmond are 7% behind, so they have a lot of work to do, but it's not out of the question. In actual fact, if that eventuates, then watch out for West Coast, who have us and Gold Coast and winning both those will also have them finish on 11 wins. Their percentage is a tick above Adelaide's, so if Richmond, Adelaide and Collingwood all drop one more game, the Eagles can still make it. That's all assuming Richmond loses to Sydney. They have played well against them the last few years, and the game is at ANZ rather than the SCG. On current form that's a contest at the least. Of course, not disputing that. But I don't put Geelong in the same group as Hawthorn, Sydney or Fremantle and they're as weak a top 4 side as there has been in the last 5-10 years.

Collingwood's season looks shot it seems, with Hawthorn in Round 23. GC is finished. So...is Richmond now favourite for 8th? They look likely to beat Adelaide. Each of Adelaide and Richmond play St Kilda, so they'll both have 11 wins. Richmond might make it even if they lose to Sydney, on percentage. Hardly believable, really.

I maintain they are the worst 16-4 side in the game's history. Fallen over the line against Richmond, Carlton, Essendon, Bulldogs, GWS, Fremantle and Carlton again. Not even close to Sydney, Fremantle (the first time), Port or the Gold Coast. The only reason they beat Hawthorn is the mental side of things in that match-up. And when they have won convincingly, most of the time it's because their opponent was average on the day, not because they played outstanding football. Good on them for winning, but deserving of a premiership they are not.