stevethemanjordan

Yes, last year was a big step forward. But not in the same way Jones has. Not nearly as consistently.

I've seen it in footage and live and as others have stated, he's not the only one. However, as one of our senior and more experienced players, you'd be expecting more so I'm with you with what you say in that regard. I don't want to pot him, I just genuinely believe there are players on our list including Frawley who are so stuck in their ways and habits of playing and it's killing the club. Killing it. Nathan Jones is the only player on our list who I can confidently say has improved his game every year since being drafted. It's a damning fact. We need another clean slate. But this time, we need to trade, recruit and develop WELL.

In your opinion. I'm not the only one who says these things Machsy. There are plenty of people who see it.You're responding in a way that sounds like it's really affecting you. That there are some who don't share the love you have for the guy. The point you're bringing up about what he is worth compared to some others on our list is irrelevant. You're still stuck in the box Machsy. Get out and have a look around. We need to bring other players into our club. Those three nqr's might also have to move on but they're not going to bring us a compo pick are they? That's why we're discussing Frawley and whether or not him leaving would be of benefit for the club.

So you keep saying RPFC. When you say 'gotta pay somebody', are you at all thinking about the future of the club and do you think the list manager etc is thinking the same way? If what's being spoken about is true, which scenario do you think will help the club most going forward. Losing Frawley for around $800k on a several year contract or receiving pick 2 (providing we finish last and the compensation is pick 2), which gives us great bargaining power to lure a potential star, or go straight to the draft and take one? I think it's obvious the more fresh and young faces we have at our club, the greater their output and willingness to learn will be. Frawley is playing as if he doesn't care. He is of no value to us on field at this moment. Unless something changes dramatically in his psyche and it's visible onfield, he needs to go for the survival and growth of our club.

I disagree that he'd be a huge loss. When you consider his performance over the last couple of years for us and as a role model, he ain't really doing a great job. As many have observed, body language, lack of effort and intensity and care factor. These things are have been evident when watching him play for some time now. As a club we're in such a unique and awkward position... It's clear we need to address our list as a whole, bring in some new, fresh and hungry players and move on some that have been at our club for so long that it's clearly afftecting their output and it's contributing to our clubs downward spiral. There's no point adopting an emotional predisposition on an individual when you've got an entire football club literally dying... If there's a possibility of gaining pick 2 for Frawley, I'd take it in a heart beat. With the people, coaches and recruiting staff now at the club, you'd be confident that we'd get the pick right and the player would be given the opportunity to develop properly.

It's not his personality? haha.Machsy. At AFL level, I expect any player who is as experienced as Frawley to engage in some sort of dialogue or communication in directing and organising the backline. I don't care what sort of personality you have. It's part of playing the game. Grimes and Garland to a lesser extent is starting to be more vocal. But I rarely see it from Frawley and that's been the case for a while, not just this year. My expectations are that he should be playing at a higher intensity, for longer and with far greater levels of concentration. It's got nothing to do with me thinking he's going to leave. And it is certainly not based on the one incident you keep banging on about. I thought Frawley was just as poor for most of last year, and that's before all this contract talk had entered the frame. In my eyes, for whatever the reason/reasons, he is contributing very little for our 'team' on the field. Very little. You keep harping on about me basing my expectations of him from a mindset that already believes him to be gone.. But that's your assessment of my opinion which is based on your mindset of thinking that I believe he is leaving. And you're wrong my good man. I have thought this about Frawley for quite some time now, and you're the one jumping down the throats of people because the issue is clearly more sensitive surrounding the contractual situation.

Sure some of the points you raise we obviously don't know for certain, but I think it's plain obvious for all watching that Frawley clearly is somewhere else in his mind on game day. I feel no sense of leadership from him. He is a mute on the field in the backline, plays for himself and it's so uninspiring for our younger guys to have a player of his age and experience going about his football in such a way. You don't need to read, watch or listen to the media to see that. It's blatantly obvious. Bang on.

So Salem did play... 20 disposals.. Would love to know how he looked out there if anyone was in attendance.

I think you're underestimating how much work the guy has done Stuie.He is fit, he has been sub three times in three games and has come on late in all games. Two of which he played forward and then against GWS he had a stint in the midfield. I am more than sure he has the capability to play a full game as a crumbing forward, his most natural position. You do understand that the midfield and forward pockets are completely different positions Stuie? That also translates to requiring completely different fitness bases... Unless sore or injured from a collision or something similar, he is not going to need a rest in the VFL for a full game. You're not entirely making sense.

Making him sub three games in a row and then dropping him to the VFL due to not having the tank? He of all our draftees from last year has completed the most work over the pre-season and he won't be playing midfield if given a full game anyway. He should definitely not be dropped after the weekend. If anyone was watching closely enough they would have seen that his intensity and attack on the ball and player was pretty impressive for a bloke of his size and in those conditions. He definitely shouldn't be dropped, in fact I'd be in disbelief if he was dropped due to 'form'. He showed far more fight and intent then a handful or more of our more senior players on the weekend.

Sorry if someone has mentioned this but I haven't read anything about Salem? Did he not end up playing?

And that disgusting shot at goal by Pederson that fell into Dunn's lap night just save his spot for next week. He is such a spud.

50 bones says we don't kick a goal today. Takers? Seriously, we won't kick a goal with the way we are 'using' the ball.

Toumpas would be considered a gun at a club like Hawthorn or Geelong. And if wines was with us, he wouldn't look nearly as good. Nobody can envisage that and that's because of the anguish and frustration shown for the performance of the MFC. We all get caught up in everything that's gone wrong with our club from admin to coaching to recruiting. I'd argue that Toumpas was yet again another youngster managed poorly by Neeld and co and should not have been played so often and early last year. Especially when you consider his limited pre-season. I'm not making excuses because I was the first one who jumped on players like Morton and Gysberts. Players who I think were genuinely the wrong picks. Sure our environment didn't help either of them, but I believe Toumpas is a very good player, and given time will show that and overcome the conditioning. He is driven, like Viney and like Jones.

I think Roos and co know exactly what's needed at Melbourne in terms of quality through the midfield. He mentioned before the season, and you can see it's given us some more depth but it's still not enough and he'll know that.. Forget about the forwardline for a minute, obviously we're struggling with our three kpps all injured.... One of the major problems lies within the psyche of many players on our list and we'll know we are on the right path only when we see the habits of these individuals change onfield. Either that, or they will not be on the list next year or the year after. I'm talking about individuals who perhaps have talent and skill, but due to poor development and what I would term 'MFC conditioning', play at an intensity and level that is far below what is required to succeed at this level. Jack Watts, James Frawley at times, Sam Blease etc are some examples. Another problem is that due to our terrible track record with drafting in the past, we are relying on players who simply do not have the ability to play at this level. If you look at who we've moved on over the last few years you'll realise it's those guys who at other clubs would be the ones helping carry the team forward. But alas, due to a combination of poor player development, poor recruiting and/or being subject to this 'MFC Conditioning', they didn't and haven't come on. Examples are Gysberts, Cook, Bate, Morton, Maric, Sylvia, Bennell etc.. So the guys who are now getting games because of this huge turnover of players, (most of whom were picked early in their respective drafts) who shouldn't be are the following: Nicholson, Bail, Matt Jones, Byrnes, Pederson, Spencer etc That's a list of very average players who on the weekend against West Coast gave us very little. The problems with our list, development and culture are all very complex and the only way I see us improving over the next few years is by doing more smart trading and bringing in more 'quality' players such as Vince. The Tyson and Salem trade was a big win I believe and it would be huge if we could do something similar next year. I'm not opposed to another Cross-like pickup either. Getting him is completely different to when we went after Byrnes. Cross is as fit as ever and can play but the dogs needed to keep giving their plethora of young gun mids games. Byrnes was brought in purely because he was from a 'successful' environment. I also have much greater faith in our recruiting department and that they won't make the same mistakes as the previous lot did. Whilst I'm sure we'll have a more successful second half of the year, (providing our tall forwards are ready and our midfield stocks stay injury free), next offseason is going to be another huge one for the club with some of the decisions they need to make. We need to bring in more quality midfielders. If that can happen with Frawley leaving, so be it. I'd say he's almost shot the way he goes about it for us so I'm happy to look at the bigger picture. We need quality, quality and more quality. It's gonna be another long year..

Sure, but like many other high draft picks we've had that have turned out to be 'spuds', it'd be very interesting to see how they developed at other clubs. Watts and Nic Nat for instance. There would be a big difference in the way they both play today...

He showed why club's draft so many speculative picks like him. An athletic tall who has freakish speed and agility for a bloke of his size and weight. He has never had natural football ability and I've thought that all along. We are in the unfortunate position of having him in our starting 22 along with so many others who are either past it, or similarly to Fitzpatrick, are not footballers but have some athletic ability. I do not and never have, rated Fitzpatrick as a footballer. His speed and agility as I've said are impressive. He's in the same category as Stef Martin and it's only a matter of time before he will be delisted.

Meaning it's a stupid typical MFC bias supporter's excuse and I'm so sick of it. Fitzpatrick is not up to standard, concussed or not. He wouldn't be playing if Clark, Dawes and Hogan were injury free. Wakey wakey. He is one of the many we have on the list who shouldn't be getting games. He is an athlete. Not a footballer.

Yes sure he has the right. But I am sick of it. He is part of the problem. He can either grit his teeth and help turn this club around, or continue to 'think' about 'his' future and play in a way that clearly displays it. And if that's the case he can [censored] off. I want players that play and care for the jumper and club. Frawley would be getting great money. He is playing and acting like a child.

More than half our list are not up to it for varying reasons. Some due to poor development being stuck at the MFC, some because they're simply not good enough but are getting games because so many of our higher draft picks have been moved on over the years due to poor drafting and again, poor development. Development and drafting. Drafting and development. They're the two things that have killed us, and I'm still thanking Schwabb and co for overseeing the employment I the horrible recruiting department and coaching groups* over those horrible years. We need another path to get back on track for the next couple of years, and it'll have to be more smart trading. We need quality consistent performers who are not sick with the MFC conditioning. An example of this conditioning is the ever so popular Jack Watts. Now I'm not going to talk about the recruitment of him because we all know that's debatable and everyone has a difference stance on the matter, but if he'd been managed and developed properly, we wouldn't see him running around on the football field as if it were a training session. His lack of urgency and effort on occasions is still astonishing for someone playing at this level. A development problem. Something that would have been made clear to him as soon as he was drafted but wasn't. There were many examples with other players doing other things yesterday but I won't continue. * Bailey era * Neeld era

If people are talking about Frawley leaving, and having the right to do so, then they should also walk from the club. Frawley is a senior player and is supposed to be leading by example and helping Jones drag this this team out of the hole it's in. He plays like a defeatest and he makes the most simple of errors which proves that he's either not switched on enough during game day, or he is simply not playing within 'his own' limitations. He needs a rocket up his arse. I don't know where his head is at but he needs to take a leaf out of his Captains book and start firming up as a senior clubsman and not some self-interested [censored] who plays his own game during matches.

It's really not unfair. It's lifting expectations. Roos would absolutely know that he provides very little onfield but obviously the situation is difficult. Neeld picked him up for his potential to 'change' some of the training habits and culture at the MFC. To bring in some players who were brought up in 'elite' environments. I understand where our list is. You do too. That's why it confuses me to hear you say he was useful. Any small forward at AFL level should snag a couple of goals. That's a bare minimum. It's what Byrnes doesn't provide that resonates with so many supporters including myself. He lacks vision and awareness, his disposal can be iffy. His forward pressure and tackling is non-existent, he has little urgency. He is selfish. He wouldn't be getting a game with any top 8 side. He will play until our list develops further. Next year he is out. And that's the sad predicament of where our list is still at.

That stat has nothing to do with his contribution or output on game day against St Kilda last Saturday...The point is, he doesn't do enough and he will have to go as soon as someone can step up and take the spot. JKH will be the man eventually. The only reason Byrnes is getting games is because he hasn't been competing with anyone for that spot. JKH will eventually take it. I understand the logic behind bringing him to our club in some regards.. I'm sure he's passed on all the knowledge he has of how things are done at Geelong etc. His job is done. He will be gone by years end.

50 + point loss this one. No forwards. And only a handful of mids who can really be damaging with their feet means there won't be many opportunities.

Yes, I'm sure he'll play. But he absolutely kills me.. He is unfit and doesn't make the most of his opportunities as a forward.. Extremely clumsy. If he plays back on the weekend, that's a different story.