stevethemanjordan

They're complete 50/50's. It's not under 10's. You don't do it every time in hope that we win the ball... It was extremely lucky.

Well unless you have Vince or Watts kicking in which makes the midfield one short further up the ground, we have no option. None of the backline have the ability to break games open with their foot skills and Terlich was certainly not the only one missing targets yesterday.

The problem is nothing other than us having zero elite users who kick out and we had a 7 foot ruckman yesterday who absolutely refused to present as a long target when we had nothing to kick to short. And the reason he didn't present is because he knows he cannot mark anyway. Spencer. Wow. Trent McKenzie tore us to shreds when Gold Coast were kicking out. A damning contrast in kicking ability and how valuable it is to have players with fantastic kicking skills. Until we improve our list, gain some quality users and decision makers, get ruckman who can mark the [censored] ball in the air and upgrade Pederson to Hogan, we are going to have the same problems.

And as for this 'hard tag' debate.. Not every team goes for one and yesterday it was so enjoyable watching two quality players in Jones and Ablett go head to head and get nearly identical numbers. Not all teams have a Ryan Crowley. Sure there are run with players for other teams but I assure you every one of them contributes more in every other aspect of the game than McKenzie. He is not cut for AFL.

McKenzie had 10 possies on the weekend. 2 tackles for the 'tackling machine'. 5 clangers and 4 free kicks against, the most of our team. He played on multiple opponents, and did very little to nullify their influence. Demonland, we will never improve as a team if we have players of his calibre in our side.. He did more to lose us the game the game than win yesterday. There are a number of others who join him. I just cannot believe the love he gets on here.

Today hopefully showed just how useless Jordie McKenzie is as a player when not used 'specifically' as a tight tagger. I watched him closely today play on a few different players and I will tell you now, we may as well have had 17 blokes on the field. He has absolutely no offensive mindset. No willingness or belief to get the footy himself and make the right decision and if people are going to argue the point of 'playing within your limitations' well then [censored] me we're never going to get anywhere as a side with players like him who do not have the ability to play at this level. The same goes with Spencer, Pederson, Matt Jones, Evans, Bail, Georgiou. And unless we address our complete lack of kicking skills, we're also not going anywhere fast anytime soon. Kicking out from our backline is a [censored] nightmare. We have no elite users. So nobody has the confidence to pinpoint a pass. Not only that, but Spencer has zero marking ability and clearly he even knows it as time and time again he just refused to present at kick ins. It's honestly comicalto watch the MFC at times. We can be so poor. We still have so many completely unskilled players who literally kill us on game day. Even players who I admire for their tenacity and commitment like Terlich and McDonald were woeful with their disposal today. How many bad kickers can one side have? It's disgusting.

Were you just taking a guess at that list of players that you posted?Seriously, it really shows how little thought you put into your post. And I'd argue a few of the names you put in that list are extremely limited players and are in fact one of the very reasons why we are where we are as a club! So, quite the opposite of what you were saying.

When's he out of contract just out of interest? The end of next year? Sad news indeed and like Machsy I wonder if it has anything to do with this speed and acceleration issue we've all noticed over the past couple of seasons.

Sure he's copped plenty. But are we that blind by our own egos that we need to take pot-shots at a player like Nic Nat just because he's down on form? Who cares about what the media say? Who cares what others say? How about we just concentrate our energy on supporting Watts because he plays for the football team we all barrack for.I'm not interested in the MASSIVE difference between the reality of the performances of each player versus what is spoken about etc. I have zero care factor. I rate parts of both Nic Nat and Watts' games. I don't rate other parts. I am more interested in the continued improvement and development in Watts because he plays for us. I'm not going to laugh at Nic Nat being subbed off last week.

I'm just of the view that Aiden Riley won't become what those in the industry would term 'gun'. I don't believe he'll reach those heights. I've seen him play, and I don't think he possesses the attributes to become a gun. He's a hard-nosed rough around the edges footballer in the same mould as someone like McKenzie.

Demonland is a funny place at times. So quick to defend their own when a player is being criticised, yet happy to join in the chorus when it comes to opposition players. Nic Nat and Grundy. Suddenly demonland don't rate them because they're out of form for whatever reason. I've seen them both perform at a level which tells me they are definitely players. Grundy in his second year. Nic Nat perhaps battling injury and finding it hard to find some consistency. Watts managed poorly and still finding it challenging to perform consistently and at the required intensity. All are still developing. It's like schoolyard bullying in here. The amount of pent up anger and frustration some posters have is just comical.

Newton, Gysberts... What did you possibly see in them that made you think they'd be guns?! Aiden may not join that group of delisted players, but he definitely won't be a gun. I'll tell you that now so you don't get your hopes up.

Hypothetically, would you be opposed to Jones going head to head with Ablett on the weekend. Making him a little more accountable and knowing that you have a solid contributor when the balls in our hands? I'd much rather that than have McKenzie going to Ablett knowing there will be a bunch of free kicks against coming our way and no contribution from him when on the attack. I thought Jones was unbelievable on Murphy in the weekend. Absolutely smashed him.

Interesting comparison.... Game has obviously changed a lot since the days big Jim was running about. I'm certain Spencer would look a lot more at home considering how the game was played even back then... Conversely, Jimmy I'm sure wouldn't have reached the heights he did back then had it been in this era of lightening fast, precise skills football. Very different times.

You make some fair points. One of which being that with a more supportive and functional midfield, his job would be made easier, and therefore he'd look 'better'. However there is a difference in being made to look 'better' and actually becoming individually 'better'. All of the names you've used, Ling, Macaffer and Crowley are better equipped for AFL football in my eyes. Of course you may argue that because they've played in successful sides with support and trust running throughout the team, they are made to 'look' better. Nonetheless I maintain that McKenzie is too one-dimensional, regardless of the support he'd have around him in a midfield studded with guns. I've seen him try and execute skills under no pressure. I've seen how little awareness he possesses. I'm just of the view that he's an extremely limited player and as far as 'taggers' go, I'd rather find someone who can offer what McKenzie does and then some. And I believe in time we will.

He did that particular night. However we've seen him played in many roles before. He can go forward and kick goals. He's a decent contested mark. He has a few strings to his bow. That's what I'm trying to stress here. A 'tagger' or 'run-with' player in a successful side needs to be able to offer more than just holding a player's jumper all game. And if we want to become a successful team, we're going to need to find a 'tagger' who can offer more than what McKenzie has to offer. (Executing the fundamental skills of the game for starters..)

McKenzie won't be getting a game if and when we have a 'gun' midfield. The game has passed the ling types. It gets faster every year. Crowley is a completely different player to ling and McKenzie. Why do you think he's the best in the business at what he does? McKenzie doesn't possess the same tools as Crowley. Are you saying Morton and Gysberts would be great players in a midfield of 'guns'? You have to be able to do more than just 'tag' in modern day football.

With you here AD. It's a hard task coming to demonland and adopting an objective and non-bias view on everything football concerned. But when it comes to our own players, especially after a win, it's as if it's taboo to critique someones performance on a day in which our club wins. Here are some home truths that I'm sure most people are aware of but perhaps may not want to hear. Jordie's efforts as a player trying to cut it at this level are of course admirable, but the reality is, he wouldn't be getting a gig in a top 8 side's midfield. The fact that he plays as a stopper in our side still says a lot about where our list is at. Against a Carlton side bereft of confidence and inspiration, I certainly don't share the same love for McKenzie's game as what others are posting here. Gibbs is clearly out of form and has never been a huge numbers winner so I'd hardly say McKenzie's role was influential on Saturday. He have away free kicks for holding. Numerous times. He does not have the ability nor the mentality to hurt the opposition on the fly. He is an extremely limited player, and one who over time will with others, need to make way if we're to significantly improve as a side. That's the reality of the situation. If you look at any of the elite stoppers of the game, you'll find that they do a great deal more than just hold the jumper of the opposition player. They're dangerous on the attack, can make their player more accountable. Nathan Jones' job on Marc Murphy is the one people should look at and marvel at and it's he who I'd be sending to Ablett on the weekend, not Jordie. I wish supporters would take off their MFC jumpers and badges for a minute and really dissect where the list is at. With another period of trading for some quality mids next year, I'm almost certain McKenzie will not be getting games. We need to improve as a club. One win doesn't mean we should be congratulating every player for their efforts. The club is bigger than the individual and whilst I'm sure he will take the field for most of the season and play with all his heart, I look forward to the day where we have enough quality and depth to the side that players of McKenzie's ability will be squeezed out.

We'll be a better side when he is not in our starting 22, that's for sure.

Id throw in several others playing alongside him and also playing against Carlton.To be a Melbourne supporter.

We're under a completely different football department.... Recruiters, coaches, board...How long do we keep living in the past? As far as hypotheticals go, if Frawley and his management are asking for the amount being spoken about, I'm all for letting him go. We'd have some serious bargaining power with another top 5 pick and even if we go to the draft, I'd be confident we'd make the right decision. As I've said, unless Frawley starts showing some signs of what I would call 'caring' onfield, I'm for him to move on. Of course I'd much rather him turn around, play with passion and care factor and try his hardest to turn te club around... I just don't think he has the capacity to do that and I reckon he'd enjoy te free and easy ride of playing in a successful team we're his role and responsibility as a senior player wont be nearly as important.

Your inability to engage in a respectful and logical discussion is evident from your above post.

Go back and read some of your posts and take not of the language you choose to use.. You're delusional son. What 'facts' have I misinterpreted?! You've lost it.

Haha. Machsy, not everyone is seeing it like this. Myself being one. But you're so frustrated and annoyed that there are some who are perhaps thinking that way that you bundle everyone into one!

I don't kno what you're banging on about with the short memories thing. Machsy, your frustration levels are becoming comical. You're starting personally attack supporters who see something you don't. Cognitive dissonance my friend. I'm not going to press the issue anymore with you. It's clear you see Frawley in a different light. But to suggest people 'have little clue' and 'small brains' because of a difference in opinion says much more about yourself than the one's you're accusing. There are many supporters, even outside this demonland forum who share the same view. We can't all have small brains Machsy. C'mon now.