ManDee

Haven't you been reading, The No T$ No B$ Thread?

It only takes one goat!

Trengove could do it on one leg.

NB: No Tommy Mac on the masthead. Must have been an oversight.

I don't think so. As an aside, I cannot bear to even look at Hird now. I change channel when he is on.

Does anyone have any idea why Essendon have not been charged yet? Surely it would be easier to find them guilty.

3 things 1 If I was wrong the players would have been found guilty. 2 No one has come out and stated that they injected an illegal substance into the players. 3 The players are responsible for what goes into their bodies, prove what that was.

Great discussion guys, have a great Easter.

I think I will quote you to answer this one. "However, there has been ambiguity regarding information about the legality of AOD. Which is why there haven't been prosecutions, because athletes "couldn't be expected to have known".

No personal insults yet, this is a good thread. Wade Lees ordered a product that contained a banned substance. In this case it is his responsibility to ensure the product was legal. He intended to take a substance that was illegal. How could the Essendon players be found guilty? 1 Positive test NO 2 Provable chain that TB4 was administered - Failed 3 Intent and that is difficult to prove. None of us know what really happened at the tribunal, but it is fascinating.

Sorry but 6.1.1 refers to failed test. We don't have a failed test.

And now we know why this failed at the AFL tribunal. It is murky. 2. Use or attempted use by an athlete of a prohibited substance or prohibited method. So have we established that they may have attempted to use a prohibited substance by inference? Is that strong enough for a guilty verdict? I understand why the tribunal let the cheats off. WADA can still get them. They can issue subpoenas.

By signing a waiver you do not absolve the waivee of negligence or dishonesty or misrepresentation, but of known risks like you might hurt yourself because what you choose to do may be risky. If the players suffer ill health as a result of being administered drugs that they were not fully informed of EFC will be sued successfully.

I think what you suggest is a transference of guilt. I don't think you can tranfer the clubs intent onto the players. I don't think 34 players would sign a waiver and then intend on taking a banned substance.

I have not read the waiver. You cannot sign away your legal rights. If the waiver mentions legal drugs and you are given illegal drugs that does not show intent on the part of the player. Edit: By intent I mean in the context of intent to use illegal PED"s

I am enjoying this conversation. If the club did a power point display for the players showing correspondence saying that the supplements that they planned on using were all OK and the players did a check and found Thymosin (for example) was OK it would give credence to the lack of intent to use illegal PED's. Most if not all clubs use supplements, do you think the players check if they are OK? I know that they should but do they? Essendon knew that they were cheating so they would not contact ASADA. Hird inquired with the AFL about peptides and was told to steer clear of them. He ignored that advice. How could the players ask ASADA about the legality of a drug if they were not told what it was and had been shown documents (I presume) to say the program was OK?

Guilty. Edit; Weightlifter Fails Rule 1. Presence of a prohibited substance or its metabolites or markers in an athlete’s sample This does not apply to EFC players Essendon players:Rule 2. Use or attempted use by an athlete of a prohibited substance or prohibited method. Requires knowledge that a substance was prohibited.

deanox, what many are failing to do is recognise that no illegal substances have been found in any EFC player. Yes, they are responsible for what they take, but prove what they took. There is no proof. You say that the players could have done a search or call ASADA, why, they were told it was a legal supplements program. If they did a search on Thymosin in 2011/12 as now, it is not illegal. What more could the player do? Ignorance is not a defence against having PED's found in your system correct, but that is not the case. Nothing has been found. Ignorance is a defence against intent, by that I mean if you did not know you were being given illegal substances how could you have intended to use them. I hate it but I get it.

Welcome DIITD. What went into their bodies? Please provide proof source not innuendo. There is no evidence of anything going into their bodies. Edit: That is the problem. Those vials may have been placebo's.

Remember, no positive tests for the players, no proof that they took anything. No proof of intent to take anything illegal. The outcome was predictable given the facts. As I said I still think that they took TB4 and possibly other illegal PED's. Stay angry Chris, hopefully they will be found guilty in the end. Get the EFC first is my feeling. Ban the cheats.

Chris fastest to 5 posts? Today's ASADA site is different to 2011/2012 as is the WADA site. Example AOD9604 I agree that the players should have sought more information. But if a program of misinformation was undertaken by the club you can understand the pressure for the players to go along. Why would you not trust the club? Perhaps some players did have misgivings, who knows? Imagine the club plans a PED program where senior management are kept in the dark (plausible deniability) the players are lied to. All records are destroyed. A legal firewall is placed around key protagonists. Sound familiar, I think it likely that was Essendon's plan from the outset in case the shlt hit the fan. So far it is working.

Damn, I've got pre games nerves already , I will be a basket case by Saturday.

So if Dank has the vials labelled Thymosin, what do the players do? The players are then only guilty if there is a positive test (no test exists for TB4) or if they intended to take an illegal substance and Thymosin is not illegal (or beneficial). The club has been very clever, it will in my opinion be their downfall. The club still intended to administer PED's they are guilty. And also the long term effects to the players and ongoing and future legal stoushes.

Or disagree for that matter.

Good point on AOD, but if the players were given copies of the WADA AOD ruling it would be different. Very hard for a player to check the composition of every vial of drugs given to them, remember we are talking about hundreds of injections. I find it hard arguing for the EFC players, because my gut feeling is that they are guilty. But the counter argument to a conspiracy needs to be raised, I suppose I am today's devils advocate.