The 2009 List

[The Emblem 1]

Well the preseason hasn't been an encouraging on, so all the talk is all about making big changes to the list.

So what changes could we expect to see in 2009?

Rucks:

Out - Jeff White, great athlete but basically got leglislated out of the game when they introduced the ruck circle

Out - Mark Jamar, lacks the mobility required

Borderline - John Meesen, will have to learn to play as ruckman, not a ruckrover

Keep - Paul Johnson, you've got to have at least one mature body on your list

Promote - Jake Spencer, will still need more time to develop his body strength

In - If 2008 turns into a shocker then Natanui is the obvious choice, otherwise we're forced into developing a 2nd/3rd stringer from another club. This would go against the "rebuilding grain"

So in 2009 the ruck stocks could still be poor as it is unrealistic to expect Spencer + 1 to be Seniors ready by then.

Forwards:

Out: Neitz - one of the club's great servants, but can't see his old knees going around again

Out: Miller - lacks the footy smarts as a CHB, can play lead-up CHF and doing so would be the only reason to keep him

Out: Yze - defensive pressure must now start from the FF and Yze does'nt provide enough of it

Out: Holland - a better player then I feel people give him credit for, but can't see us persisting with him beyond this year

Borderline: Robbo - we may squeeze one more year [contracted] out of him but defensive pressure will have to improve

Borderline: Green - FGS play him as a lead-up FP, or could be offered up as valuable trade-bait

Borderline: Weetra - physicality is an issue

Bordeline:Sylvia : - make or break year, has potential, will the MFC be able to develop our will he be offered up

Keep: Bate - Terrific young player, see him as a HFF who can play lead-up CHF as required

Keep: Davey - Fantastic player, and as much as we need extra zip in the midfield I think Aaron playing forward makes our defenders jobs that much easier as his pace creates pressure that causes a lot of turnovers between our CHF / Centre line

Keep: Dunn - I feel is underated by many MFC supporters...this guy has footy smarts. [I can see those words being thrown in my face a few times this year

Keep Newton - loved his mark against the Kangaroos, other MFC supporters hype him a lot, but I think he must improve his concentration levels, and needs to kick 2 to 3 goals a week to win me over.

Develop: Maric - will only be in his second year of development, to be an AFL player in the first two years is the exception, not the rule.

Develop: Garland - Need to see more of him before making a judgement call

Develop: Zomer - I think he's got potential, 2009 may still be a bit soon for him

Promote: Wonaemirri - I think he's got potential

In: CHF type along with AA ruckman should be our draft priorities

Lack of a true CHF may buy Green and/or Robbo some more time. Think the window for ther MFC trading Robbo has pretty much closed, although Green could still be of interest as could be a very damaging FP in a stronger forward set-up. Will be pinning hopes on Newton and to a lesser degree Zomer stepping up as KPP [ or Morton if keeps growing], think our small / utility forward stocks look quite good

Midfield:

Keep: Jones, bluey truscott this year?

Keep: McLean, bathurst?

Keep: Bartram, very important player, junior's successor

Keep: Moloney, will have to learn to be less predictable with his disposal [to the opposition]

Keep: Pettard, brave and skillfull

Keep: Buckley, adds much needed zip

Unsure: Bruce, bloody good player,but with disposal can let him down, could be offered up as trade bait

Out: Junior, one of my favourite players, but will he be able to go around again in 2009

Out: Johnson.C, make or break year...feel that the Buckley's of this world are overtaking him

Develop: Grimes, love to see what he's got

Develop: Morton, could become an Adam Goodes style of tall winger / ruck rover

Promote: Valenti, ball magnet

The midfield had good foundation's to build on, adding "a bit of zip" would put the icing on the cake

Defence:

Out: Whelan, terrific player, will make a huge difference when in the team for 08, but re 09 soft tissue injuries concern me

Out: Bode, lacks the requisite decision making and disposal skills

Out: Warnock, just don;t see him making it

Keep: Rivers, one of the best players on our list

Keep: Bell, has developed nicely as a HBF

Keep: Frawley, can see him developing into a fine player

Keep: Wheatley, an underrated player who I think has 3-4 more good years in him.

Keep: Carroll, does a very good job, a BP who has done a good job as a makeshift FB [like holding back the tide at some points last year]

Develop: McNamara, so young and yet could even have stamped himself as a regular by the end of the season

Develop: Martin, real potential as a KP back, will take time

Develop: Cheney, need to see more

Every man and his dog has been having pot shots at our defence. I actually think we have the potential makings of a very good defensive set up and look forward to them coming into their own in 2009 and beyond

Summary

Outs: Neitz, Yze, McDonald, Holland, White, Johnson.C, Jamar, Miller, Whelan, Bode, Warnock

Borderline: Meesen, Weetra, Robertson

Promote: Valenti, Wonaemirri, Spencer

Potential Trade Bait: Bruce, Green, Sylvia

In 2009 the ruck stocks could still be poor as it is unrealistic to expect Spencer + 1 to be Seniors ready by then.

Lack of a true CHF may buy Green and/or Robbo some more time.. Will be pinning hopes on Newton and to a lesser degree Zomer stepping up as KPP [ or Morton if keeps growing], think our small / utility forward stocks look quite good.

The midfield had good foundation's to build on, adding "a bit of zip" would put the icing on the cake.

I actually think we have the potential makings of a very good defensive set up and look forward to them coming into their own in 2009 and beyond.

[Guest MFC4Life]

A valiant effort. I disagree with you regarding Jeff White. We are at least 2-3 years away from having another top line ruckman (unless we trade for one). I agree his influence is now limited but unfortunatley we have no other options. He will be a requirement during that 2-3 year period. Disagree with Sylvia however it is all up to him and his groins as to how far he goes. Agree with Robbo, Green and Bruce. All aging talented players who were rewarded by Daniher with regular starts despite mediocrity.

Gary Lyon last night on Footy Classified stated very philosophically that these are make or break times for the MFC both on and off the field.

Interesting times ahead.

[drdrake 3,157]

Bit early for this post but you just can't turn over 11 players on your list, you add three rookies that still means with out any trading you need to find 8 players plus 3 rookies.

We already have 4 Valenti's on our list we don't need another slow in and under midfielder, so take him out and we need to pick 9 players up for our senior list from trading and the draft, thats over 20% of your list. You have to be a little realistic that figure is way to high, I agree Neitz, Yze and Holland from the older guys but I still think White, McDonald, Whelan have at least 1 more season. The younger guys the ones mentioned will have to improve to stay on our list. But you wouldn't go into a draft looking for more than 6 players.

Trade bait, Green and Bruce have no currency you would be lucky to get a late second round early third round pick, Sylvia you may get early second round pick.

We have got 22 rounds and hopefully finals before we have to consider our 2009 list.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Not too shabby an effort there Deereeming. and youre right your be fired upon from all directions...I must confess id agre with about 95% of that. For some there are a few too many unpalateble 'realities'. But thats what they are ...realities.. not niceties..they're not preferences.. they are simply the REAL of the situation.

No good for me or tohers to gripe that some should be done ealierr than end of year.. but thats also a reality !! lol

simply no point continuing with Jeff.. to do so is to accomplish what ???

we turned over 25% of our list last year.. so why not again?? i dont see too many traded at years end.. maybe the odd extra yongen ( superfluous to requirements) certainly no older player will command much currency.

I have a funny feeling that Bails might use Meeson as a 2nd up ruck come burgeoning kpp; time wil tell.

But one thing is for sure..any ongoing success will be with a 2009 type list...not our current cobbled-d-goo !!

A simple lesson for end of 2008...be absolutely brutal.. cut anyone not up to it...no matter who they are. ..thats not just a reality...its common sense !!

I'll just go sit over there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and watch now

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,721]

How about we do something a bit different this year and trade our priority pick (17 - assuming we win less than 5 games) for a good experienced 23-27 year old in his footballing prime. For example Schneider going to St Kilda, McMahon going to Richmond etc. We appear to have a lack of quality in that department.

Remember we'll likely have pick 1 in the draft, unless Tankton and Richmond win less than 5 games (or we do the unlikley and finish off the bottom), and we'll also have an early second round draft pick.

Time to get some established talent who have 5-8 years left in them. We traded for kids last year. Lets do something a little different for 09 and try and win some games.

[Gouga 566]

I agree the writing is on the wall for Holland, Neitz, White and Yze but I don't see why McDonald or Whelan wouldn't go around again, injuries permitting.

Also don't forget Jamar and Miller are contracted until the end of 2009. Unless they are traded at the end of this year they'll remain on our list.

[Gouga 566]

Why are you talking about specific draft picks? The season is 0 games old. Let's see what happens.

[The Emblem 1]

Bit early for this post but you just can't turn over 11 players on your list, you add three rookies that still means with out any trading you need to find 8 players plus 3 rookies.

We already have 4 Valenti's on our list we don't need another slow in and under midfielder, so take him out and we need to pick 9 players up for our senior list from trading and the draft, thats over 20% of your list. You have to be a little realistic that figure is way to high, I agree Neitz, Yze and Holland from the older guys but I still think White, McDonald, Whelan have at least 1 more season. The younger guys the ones mentioned will have to improve to stay on our list. But you wouldn't go into a draft looking for more than 6 players.

Trade bait, Green and Bruce have no currency you would be lucky to get a late second round early third round pick, Sylvia you may get early second round pick.

We have got 22 rounds and hopefully finals before we have to consider our 2009 list.

Please note that the spirit post is food for thought as opposed to a baying for blood, although I can see why some may interpret it that way

Some valid points by ddrake, Life will be sweeter for the list managers if Sylvia can "make rather then break" and we could get one more season out of Junior & Wheel's, with Whitey being there out of sheer necessity. No personal grudge against White - think he is a good footballer, great athlete and at club functions etc has always come across as a truly wonderful person. Just think the changes to the ruck rules took away much of his weaponary.

As per Valenti...you can have 4 in and unders on your list because by the nature of their game style these types can cop injuries, so nice to have one or two on standby. As for pace I'm of the opinion that inside midfielders require "speed of mind" to get the ball out to the "racehorses", and it makes life so much easier for our defenders if our midfielders are the ones who have the ball!

I think there are several clubs who would be interested in Green, as a FP, and I believe the MFC could get 3-4 years valuable service out of him if we played him there

As for list turnover the scenario painted was extreme and whether you would act so dramatically would depend on the quality and depth of the draft and clubs position entering the draft.

In 07 we turned over 11 players: 3 retirements, 6 delistings and one player traded away V gaining 1 traded player, 5 draft picks and 5 rookies drafts. We could do something similar again - pending where we are at come September.

Our best 22 is still a very good side. Come the end of this year, what steps do we make to turn it into a premiership side?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Way too early for this with much water to flow under the bridge to talk of delistings, tradings etc. (although there are a couple who would stand out).

Before we decide to slice and dice the list we need to understand where we stand against the rest of the competition. I would suggest Rd 12 to 15 will give us the story.

The season will depend on whether our senior players perform to their capabiilities and our younger brigade (5yrs or less actually perform).

If its a bad year and injuries aside, I would expect that we could turnover a similar number of players to last year.

This is a critical year for McLean Sylvia Bell, Dunn and Bate. A failiure to make an impression will be interesting.

Its a brave call to promote 3 rookies out of 4. You are lucky to get one serviceable player out of rookies let alone three. Spencer is a project player and is years off if ever. Unless one of PJ Jamar or Meesen comes through,I suggest we will trade for a ready made ruckman.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I doubt that they will get rid of 11 players, although they probably should, but it will probably be more like 6 - 8.

Most of those that you mentioned should be gone. If we had managed our list properly in the past we wouldn't be in the position of having to hang on to players that are not up to it.

[Demons 32 235]

Bit silly and to bandwagon for me.

Sorry to say if we took out Green, Bruce and White we would be terrible.

Green was one of very few who at least played decent last year.

Bruce was unfit all season (however Brock gets away with that excuse).

White is still regarded as a top 5 ruckman in the league. Just a few weeks back Arcger got asked on SEN who the best ruckman in the league were regarding Mcintosh. He said in order id say Cox, White, Lade then Mcintosh.

You can't turn over 11 players in one season, I know as a supporter we all get the optimistic look at our young players but there is a high chance that 50% of our players under 22 will be complete duds. But by all means lets get rid of real talent such as White, Green and Bruce, purely because it's all the rage, for young guys like Garland, Zomer and Spencer.

Always hear people saying you gotta throw the kids in their so they develop, they could be great if given a chance, let me give you a small slice of reality people, if they are good enough, they will get a chance, Bate did, Bartram did, Davey did, Petterd did, Jones did. Just because a guy is under 22 and wears a Melbourne jumper doesn't mean he won't get pumped at the top level.

I do believe we do have some really strong young talent, first off the defense. Players like Frawley, Rivers, Petterd and Bell are all still so young. I believe we have 2 amazing key position players right there and two terrific running backmen who will all be starting 22 for a long time.

In the midfield we also have quality kids, Jones is so so young and is looking so so good. From what I saw of the under 18's I really rate Morton, he is not a key position player like people seem to think he could be, a great, Cameron Bruice like midfielder, which by the way isn't a bad thing!! There is also Dunn and Bate who fit into this category as wingmen, Bate is strong and backs himself, is a bit lazy at times but has all the tools. Dunn is skillful and plays with passion.

Then you look at Buckley who I personally rate very highly. He has all the attributes the modern midfielder wants.

Our forward line still has some great talent, however not as proven as the above mentioned. Newton looks like he has something, he just needs to apply himself better and create more chances, more importantly take those chances.

Ive seen Woenamirri play alot and he has all the making of a tough goal scorer like Byron Pickett, like him or hate him he forged a fantastic career.

Would also say that players like Valenti, Grimes and Maric can all go but we cannot really be sure yet. Valenti is a ball magnet but he plays like a VFL footballer, he gets and just kicks it. Grimes, I personally believe has something but we don't yet. Maric, I hear alot but of course who knows??? He and Grimes must be given a bit of time yet.

These are the main kids who have actually shown something. It is actually a pretty decent look. But to lose our veterans with this young squad and we will be pathetic!! Im sorry but I don't believe that every kid we get is going to be a gem.

Because they are not. We could take the approach of Hawthorn and the Saints and stock up on supreme talent. But they haven't done anymore than we ever did in the past 7 seasons. Infact we have in a way done more then both.

You cannot always rely on kids, the draft and development in general, you need some veterans who know the AFL game, despite what people believe, it is a lot harder than the VFL or junior comps!!

I would hope our best 22 in 09 would look like this.

Mainly young talent but a few experienced and talented veterans in the team.

And no outlandish picks who have not proved anything other than that they are on the list.

B: Bell Carroll Frawley

HB: Bartram Rivers Petterd

C: Green Jones Buckley

HF: Morton Miller Bruce

F: Davey Newton Robertson

R: White Mcdonald Mclean

Inter: Meesen Moloney Whelan Sylvia

Emergencies: Valenti, Woenamirri, Paul Johnson

[Guest MFC4Life]

How about we do something a bit different this year and trade our priority pick (17 - assuming we win less than 5 games) for a good experienced 23-27 year old in his footballing prime. For example Schneider going to St Kilda, McMahon going to Richmond etc. We appear to have a lack of quality in that department.

Remember we'll likely have pick 1 in the draft, unless Tankton and Richmond win less than 5 games (or we do the unlikley and finish off the bottom), and we'll also have an early second round draft pick.

Time to get some established talent who have 5-8 years left in them. We traded for kids last year. Lets do something a little different for 09 and try and win some games.

Our issues stem deeper than a lack of one or two mid-tier players. The club's problem's are well documented and I am not going to harp on about them as we all know what they are.

The only thing I will say is this. I had an epiphany a short time ago and I firmly believe this club (and i'm not saying we are the only club) is at least two years behind the leading clubs insofar as sports science, game research and planning, player develpment and tactics is concerned. Daniher and Fagan's refusal to move forward in these areas coupled with a probable lack of funds and resources to be able to do so all to enable a team to maybe sneak into a final series all in the name of preserving employment for numerous individuals (that shall remain nameless) have put this club at least two or three years behind Geelong, Collingwood, St. Kilda, Hawthorn and all the interstate clubs.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

B: Bell Carroll Frawley

HB: Bartram Rivers Petterd

C: Green Jones Buckley

HF: Morton Miller Bruce

F: Davey Newton Robertson

R: White Mcdonald Mclean

Inter: Meesen Moloney Whelan Sylvia

Emergencies: Valenti, Woenamirri, Paul Johnson

FWIW, I thought it was Green that was hampered with an ankle injury not Bruce. Too often last year Bruce, Green and White played and we were terrible. They cannot be relied to carry and lift the team. They are not good enough. We have deficiencies on our list.

I think your side highlights a number of the issues:

1. Our rucks struggled against good competitive opposition. White is nowhere Top 5. He is not the worst. But its a pipedream to hold him in the top 5.

2. Your best side includes two current rookies as emergencies which is ambitious and damning of the MFC list as it is.

3. No Bate, Dunn, Garland or Grimes by 2009 proper underpins a broader concern. If two last minute chosen rookies are pushing best 22 and the named players arent its rather damning of either recruitment, player development or player fitness.

4. A six year player who was a No 3 draft pick is apparently fit for the first time and can only get an interchange role is a failure.

I have no doubt that given the paucity of performance from senior players this year, younger player will definitely get a chance to perform. There should be alot less doubt about where those players are at.

I doubt that they will get rid of 11 players, although they probably should, but it will probably be more like 6 - 8.

Most of those that you mentioned should be gone. If we had managed our list properly in the past we wouldn't be in the position of having to hang on to players that are not up to it.

If its a bad year, I have listed 8 that could go without much effort before you even look at trades and possibly clearing out a rookie or two.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but MFC overrated the list and the draft penalties of 1999/2000 and the poor draft performance of 2001 has left us with a gaping hole in the list

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I had an epiphany a short time ago and I firmly believe this club (and i'm not saying we are the only club) is at least two years behind the leading clubs insofar as sports science, game research and planning, player develpment and tactics is concerned. Daniher and Fagan's refusal to move forward in these areas coupled with a probable lack of funds and resources to be able to do so all to enable a team to maybe sneak into a final series all in the name of preserving employment for numerous individuals (that shall remain nameless) have put this club at least two or three years behind Geelong, Collingwood, St. Kilda, Hawthorn and all the interstate clubs.

Do you have access to these areas within the Footy dept at MFC and other Clubs? How would you know where MFC are at relative to others?

How do you Daniher and Fagan refused any of those areas you talk of? How does this refusal and the lack of financial resources were the objective to preserve employment of players?

Looks like grandstanding without the substance.

[beelzebub 23,313]

keeping in mind a player list of 44-45

any given year.. 2-3 might topple off the end..natural causes; just past use-by !!..................... (2)

any given year a couple of rookies make way for a couple more rookies; say 2.......................(2)

a g y... a couple of younguns havent made the grade after all.. tried but failed say 2..............(2)

a g y one player goes in trade; say 1.................................................................................(1)

a g y 2 players see the writing on wall and retire; might be injury, might be form......................(2)

thats 9-10 without really trying !!

I'd actually suggest in order to retain a list that was current, useful and effective you actually HAVE to turnover 10 or so a year. To not do so is foolhardy .

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'd actually suggest in order to retain a list that was current, useful and effective you actually HAVE to turnover 10 or so a year. To not do so is foolhardy .

I doubt it.

It feasible once or twice when you have a clean out but a top side may not necessary delist/retire 6 to 7 players nor necessarily participate in a trade.

I have not done the maths on all sides last year or past premiers etc but I would say 6 excluding changing rookies. How much impact does a rookie have if he is not being promoted? Sandy 2nds

[paddo 0]

I think you're pretty much spot on DeeReaming, but I disagree with you on three points:

1) Jeff White: We must get at least two more years out of Jeff because there is simply nobody there to take over 1st ruck.

2) Robbo: With 2008 almost certainly Neita's last season, Robbo will need to be there for the next three years to nurture our young, promising forward line.

3) Jace Bode: I think we should give this bloke a fair go - I thought he showed something in the few games he played last year.

I must say that the midfield excites me, if nothing else. A mature midfield of Davey, McLean, Bartram, Moloney, Buckley, Petterd, Morton and Grimes in three years time is something to look forward to.

I've gotta admit though that our backline leaves a lot to be desired. I'm afraid we'll have plenty of goals kicked against us this year.

[beelzebub 23,313]

we're not that different..you say 6..add 2 rookies on average..thats 8.. not too far from my 9-10

some years you may do 10-11..others 8-9.. not that different

differing ends of same pole i'd suggest

[beelzebub 23,313]

jeff white is already 2 years past it ( he doesnt affect games..so therefore he's past it ) to continue with him is to revisit errors of the past. To not learn from history is to be doomed to repeat it. !!

Quite frankly was happy to let Robbo go.. so far nothing to suggest that was amiss.

Point is you are insane to keep players...just because youre afraid to replace them..and try things. If they were all super delivers week in week out we , none of us, would not be having this conversation !!

[Guest MFC4Life]

Do you have access to these areas within the Footy dept at MFC and other Clubs? How would you know where MFC are at relative to others?

How do you Daniher and Fagan refused any of those areas you talk of? How does this refusal and the lack of financial resources were the objective to preserve employment of players?

Looks like grandstanding without the substance.

You now, maybe your right RR...I don't have access, none of us do. Therefore, we have no idea what we are talking about. All I know is that we share the same training ground with the Trinity Grammar XVIII and we haven't got a Full-Back.

[Yze_Magic 3]

There will be some massive changes in 2009

With Neitz gone, we lose our heart and soul, our identity.

ITs going to be bizarre, especially with White and Yze finishing up as well

Pretty exciting though!

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

With Neitz gone, we lose our heart and soul, our identity.

Neitz brings those things?

[The Emblem 1]

How about we do something a bit different this year and trade our priority pick (17 - assuming we win less than 5 games) for a good experienced 23-27 year old in his footballing prime. For example Schneider going to St Kilda, McMahon going to Richmond etc. We appear to have a lack of quality in that department.

Remember we'll likely have pick 1 in the draft, unless Tankton and Richmond win less than 5 games (or we do the unlikley and finish off the bottom), and we'll also have an early second round draft pick.

Time to get some established talent who have 5-8 years left in them. We traded for kids last year. Lets do something a little different for 09 and try and win some games.

Winning games is nice, winning premierships is what counts

If the right player is available, sure...we could trade to get one, but they would have to be: in order of priority:

A) CHB / CHF type...what club is going going to let a quality one of those go?

B/ Ruckman...we may have to trade to get an experienced one, as well a Natanui if 08 all goes to hell

C) Outside Midfielder with blistering pace and skills

[Neita3000 37]

Neitz brings those things?

In a clubt hat is lacking he is the closest one who does

[drdrake 3,157]

Why is Neitz a certainty to go. I mentioned him in my post prior but why cant he kick 60 goals this year and go around again next year. Neitz is still one of the strongest forwards in the competition his main problem is our own players trying to take mark of the year on his shoulders every contest. Give Neita the square and 25m arc by himself with no Robbo or Newton getting in his space making a one on one which you would back Neita against all fullbacks.

I don't like the comment keep White because we have no other options, how do we know? Can PJ/Jamar/Meesen be effective ruckman who knows we have never seen them in that position for long periods of time. I believe PJ can be just as effective as White around the ground if he was given 15-20mins per quarter, and lets face it he doesn't have to improve his ruck skills that much to match White over the past 12 mths. Meesen may be the same, Jamar will be different he needs to compete well in the ruck to justify his selection.

In regards to list management if we bring 7+ 17/18 year olds to our senior list not including rookies it would want to be a deep draft. The other side is Salary cap, you lose Neitz, Yze, White, Robbo, Mcdonald, Whelan trade Bruce or Green a few boys will be in for good pay rises so we can meet our minimum payment.