Tracks ball use in the grand final was elite. I would suggest the real problem is that the forward line in entirely disorganised therefore players just kick long in hope. We seriously need to get an experienced forward line coach

1 hour ago, Axis of Bob said:

You'd really hate the players that this drafting rule would make us pick! 🤣

If we picked any players at all.

26 minutes ago, Ugottobekidding said:

Tracks ball use in the grand final was elite. I would suggest the real problem is that the forward line in entirely disorganised therefore players just kick long in hope. We seriously need to get an experienced forward line coach

+ under instruction from the coach who accepted the forward line was pieced together, lacked cohesion and didn't feature a credible tall target who could clunk a mark or kick straight.

Mind you Joel Smith more than did his part in the two finals!

1 hour ago, Fat Tony said:

How many players in the AFL have elite decision making, elite skills and leg speed? You are basically advocating that we should trade in or draft Nick Daicos, Josh Kelly or Izak Rankine.

I am keen to add some pace and class, but you need to be realistic. If Mark Blicavs, Dylan Grimes or Alex Rance are on the draft table, you take them.

At least one of the two FT.   If they have both its a bonus.

If they have one and the other is up tp scratch (AFL worthy) then all good.

On 9/25/2023 at 10:41 AM, Binmans PA said:

So we need to accept that our mids are great at the contest, but less precise with their disposal, which in the recent history of contested players, is pretty much the go. Martin and Dangerfield for example can absolutely butcher the ball by foot.

It means we don't necessarily give up our intercept game (which will still be 2024 footy), but that we can get outnumbers at defensive ground ball (which IMV is just about the most important facet of the modern game given the speed the game has been played at since 2021), and this ability to win ground ball, then feeds into our ability to score, and improves efficiency of ball movement by having our better ball users (Salem, Bowey and McVee) instigating our scoring chains from the middle of the ground, and ideally through the corridor.

We really only have one key extractor though and that's Viney.

Most teams don't usually have more than one genuine quality extractor on their list but i think we need a decent back up 2nd stringer that either relieves Viney when resting or comes on for a chop out if he's getting tagged out of the game.

Figure this 'was' Dunstan but he's now gone and was never selected anyway.

If Viney doesn't fire, escpecially at CBs, we generally don't do so well imv.  Teams know this and put extra work into him to try and curb his influence.

From his last four finals he's probably only fired on most cylinders once.  I suspect due to the counter effect the oppo are bringing.  There may have been other unrelated factors at play of course.

Imo we've lacked at least one mid with leg speed / zip at CBs & stoppages to close down space on loose ground balls (and the oppo hunting them) once the ball gets outside the inner ring.  Critical for first use and clearances when it does which must be the outcome in a fair percentage of CB contests.

We dominated CBs in the GF as we had a tall part time ruck bringing bringing the agility with some speed once the ball hit the deck in LJ.

Since he left we've struggled to win CB clearances againat the top line clubs on a regular basis.  Sure, occasionally we come out neutral and some might say that's ok.

Against the mediocre / lessor teams we better them much of the time here as one would expect.

Which is why i was both surprised and disaapointed Simon did not look to up Kozzy's attendances at CBs this season, especially in the two finals.

Edited October 2, 20231 yr by Demon Dynasty

9 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

We really only have one key extractor though and that's Viney.

Most teams don't usually have more than one genuine quality extractor on their list but i think we need a decent back up 2nd stringer that either relieves Viney when resting or comes on for a chop out if he's getting tagged out of the game.

Figure this 'was' Dunstan but he's now gone and was never selected anyway.

If Viney doesn't fire, escpecially at CBs, we generally don't do so well imv.  Teams know this and put extra work into him to try and curb his influence.

From his last four finals he's probably only fired on most cylinders once.  I suspect due to the counter effect the oppo are bringing.  There may have been other unrelated factors at play of course.

Imo we've lacked at least one mid with leg speed / zip at CBs & stoppages to close down space on loose ground balls (and the oppo hunting them) once the ball gets outside the inner ring.  Critical for first use and clearances when it does which must be the outcome in a fair percentage of CB contests.

We dominated CBs in the GF as we had a tall part time ruck bringing bringing the agility with some speed once the ball hit the deck in LJ.

Since he left we've struggled to win CB clearances againat the top line clubs on a regular basis.  Sure, occasionally we come out neutral and some might say that's ok.

Against the mediocre / lessor teams we better them much of the time here as one would expect.

Which is why i was both surprised and disaapointed Simon did not look to up Kozzy's attendances at CBs this season, especially in the two finals.

You're kidding, right? Who the [censored] is number 13?

1 hour ago, Ugottobekidding said:

Tracks ball use in the grand final was elite. I would suggest the real problem is that the forward line in entirely disorganised therefore players just kick long in hope. We seriously need to get an experienced forward line coach

The problem can be seen that way. If you watch us though we regularly burn teammates forward of the ball. This is the bigger problem. Clubs know if they pressure the ball carrier we’ll make mistakes 

2 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

You're kidding, right? Who the [censored] is number 13?

Yes agreed but he wasn't extracting (first use not clearances) as often at CBs this season imv.  Probably should have clarrified im referring to our effectivenes at CBs hence the LJ out of the middle GF references.

Not as often or effectively from what i witnessed anyway.

Around ground stoppages yes.  Pretty similar to prior years.

Most of our 'effective' CB extractions came from Viney imv.  Max not too bad, with cameos from Clarry (when not injured) and minor assists from others attending (Gus, Tracc, Jordon & Sparrow).

Edited October 2, 20231 yr by Demon Dynasty

6 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

The CB extractions were mostly from Viney imv with cameos from Clarry (when not injured) and minor ones from others attending (Gus, Tracc, Jordon & Sparrow).

Oliver ranked first at Melbourne with 2.67 centre clearance per game. Viney second with 2.54 per game, and Petracca third with 2.00. No other midfielder came close to them. This puts Oliver 13th in the league (min 10 games).

In terms of non-CB stoppage clearances, Oliver had 4.2 per game, Petracca 3.96, Brayshaw 2.50 and Viney 2.42.

Oliver is 7th in the AFL for total clearances per game, just ahead of Patrick Cripps. Petracca is 16th and Viney is 29th. I don't think our weakness is in quality stoppage players.

58 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

Oliver ranked first at Melbourne with 2.67 centre clearance per game. Viney second with 2.54 per game, and Petracca third with 2.00. No other midfielder came close to them. This puts Oliver 13th in the league (min 10 games).

In terms of non-CB stoppage clearances, Oliver had 4.2 per game, Petracca 3.96, Brayshaw 2.50 and Viney 2.42.

Oliver is 7th in the AFL for total clearances per game, just ahead of Patrick Cripps. Petracca is 16th and Viney is 29th. I don't think our weakness is in quality stoppage players.

Thanks but i'm not referring to clearances Axis.   First use / extractions.

I know Champion keep the numbers on these but obviously we never get to see them unlss it's released in a paper or via Fox analysis etc.

I have no issues re Clarry being up there from a clearance POV and never have.

I'm merely saying that i don't think he (Clarry) has been as involved and/or maybe as effective in this area (first use/extractions) in 23 vs prior years AT CBs.

Stoppages.... no issues and looks to be still as involved / effective as he has in prior seasons.

P.S. this may not be Clarry's doing either.  He might have been asked to play a somewhat lessor role at CBs in this area with Simon wanting others to get more involved / experience.  Pure speculation though as is most of my thoughts above having no data to conpare to prior years.

Edited October 2, 20231 yr by Demon Dynasty

19 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Thanks but i'm not referring to clearances Axis.   First use / extractions.

I know Champion keep the numbers on these but obviously we never get to see them unlss it's released in a paper or via Fox analysis etc.

I have no issues re Clarry being up there from a clearance POV and never have.

I'm merely saying that i don't think he (Clarry) has been as involved and/or maybe as effective in this area (first use/extractions) in 23 vs prior years AT CBs.

Stoppages.... no issues and looks to be still as involved / effective as he has in prior seasons.

P.S. this may not be Clarry's doing either.  He might have been asked to play a somewhat lessor role at CBs in this area with Simon wanting others to get more involved / experience.  Pure speculation though as is most of my thoughts above having no data to conpare to prior years.

In terms of a pure 'in and under bottom of every pack feed it out' type of extractor I agree. There's few teams that have more than one of these, you have to drill down into the role a bit more as there are a heap of great contested ball midfielders in the game that aren't playing a 100% extractor role because of the need to hold width/shape. It's almost like they are the second link in the chain after extractor but before ball user.