3 minutes ago, Macca said:

As stated previously, abusing umpires by calling them chxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx says a lot to me about a persons character.  They are unhinged and they are everywhere on this site

That sort of behavior should carry with it a lengthy ban in my view.  Right now, if someone came out with a racial slur, they'd probably cop a ban.  And rightly so

So right now, the attitude is that one stance is perfectly fine whilst the other carries with a ban of some description.  So in my view, both stances are too far apart

Do you believe anyone here should get banned for abusing an umpire in such a fashion? 

Ok, but you haven’t substantiated that the weight of racial abuse vs umpire abuse is closer than I presented it. I presented it as being gravely different in its implications for a host of historical and contextual reasons.

So I’ll ask it in a question:

In your opinion does abusing an umpire for their decisions carry the same weight as racially abusing someone?

If you do agree with this statement then you have to show how the two are analogous with each other.

4 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

And this thread is now about umpires, Trump and as much about 'Macca' as he can make it.

It's sad these threads always go this way, and it's probably a microcosm of why headway on racism is such a slog.

 

Speaking of Trump ... I called him a racist on one of the threads in the general discussion area about a year ago

The retort by one poster was to call me a racist for calling Trump a racist.  I let it go as I thought I'd bring it up later in a similar thread ... which is now!

So been there, done that

You and many others have misrepresented me, catagorised me and misinterpreted me all in the name of your perceived side

Little do you know that I'm actually with you in the fight against racism.  You need to stop jumping at shadows as I'm just coming at the subject matter from a different angle

7 minutes ago, Demonstone said:

What a shame such a worthy thread has ended up this way.

I actually disagree. 
 

Discussing racism in an honest fashion will inevitably lead to all of these links. Because racism is ingrained in so many parts of society. I’m glad that it has gotten to this point because it broadens the discussion and makes people think.

it might seem disjointed or lurching into other topics, but IMO, you can’t discuss racism in a vacuum of just AFL as it stems from so many different quarters.

3 minutes ago, BoBo said:

In your opinion does abusing an umpire for their decisions carry the same weight as racially abusing someone

Depends on the actual words and the context but short answer ... no

But right now, on this site, abusing an umpire using foul and obscene language seems to be allowed yet (and I'm only guessing) racially vilifying a person would cop a ban

There's too big a gap and I've said that twice now. 

38 minutes ago, I'va Worn Smith said:

As a footnote on Donald Trump.  His former Republican colleague, Senator John McCain, was a fighter pilot in the Vietnam war, who was shot down over North Vietnam.  He became a prisoner of war and endured incredible pain and torture, culminating with his broken leg being re-set, with not even an aspirin.  ( just imagine that)

After the Republican Senator passed away from a brain tumour, Trump said this

How can anyone defend such a despicable person, regardless of political persuasion?

 

Yes. He should have been marched out of the White House after those comments. 
I have been to The “Hanoi Hilton” and seen the conditions that McCain endured. 
Trump had Bone Spurs…and absconded…

8 minutes ago, dieter said:

As I said many posts ago, in answer to the many billabong posts on this this thread: what has this got to do with racial vilification of the Aboriginal people of Australia? You've hit the nail on the head: suddenly we have Trump and umpires. WTF!

We’re discussing racism though. It doesn’t just exist within the bounds of indigenous people here. To understand the total layout and the societal forces that perpetuate it, you have to go into other parts of society that people are exposed too.

And the umpire part is important too as it brings up the question: is all abusive behaviour of the same weight?

Which in my opinion, is an important question to ask as it illustrates that verbal abuse is not something that implies the same things all across the board. History/context plays a massive part in how racism works and people need to understand that.

Also, I’m not attacking you, I’m just pointing out that understanding racism means talking about it holistically as to ignore the externalities of our culture and it’s part in cultivating it, means a lack of actual communication about the issue.

Just now, Sir Why You Little said:

Yes. He should have been marched out of the White House after those comments. 
I have been to The “Hanoi Hilton” and seen the conditions that McCain endured. 
Trump had Bone Spurs…and absconded…

Me too.  Yet it is now a beautiful country, with beautiful people.  Why did so many people die for a cause that was no more than trying to stop imaginary dominoes from falling?

6 minutes ago, Macca said:

Depends on the actual words and the context but short answer ... no

But right now, on this site, abusing an umpire using foul and obscene language seems to be allowed yet (and I'm only guessing) racially vilifying a person would cop a ban

There's too big a gap and I've said that twice now. 

Guys, please get on topic and take your other debate to DM.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Yes. He should have been marched out of the White House after those comments. 
I have been to The “Hanoi Hilton” and seen the conditions that McCain endured. 
Trump had Bone Spurs…and absconded…

Big Mc Cain would never have been a 'visitor' the the Hilton if he hadn't invaded a country called Vietnam.

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

Depends on the actual words and the context but short answer ... no

But right now, on this site, abusing an umpire using foul and obscene language seems to be allowed yet (and I'm only guessing) racially vilifying a person would cop a ban

There's too big a gap and I've said that twice now. 

Ok cool then we partially agree.

So what is the content of the abuse that is generally aimed at umpires that you disagree with? As in, is the abuse about their identity as a class of people in this society? Or is it aimed at them personally as people because of their actions as umpires?

 

1 minute ago, dieter said:

Big Mc Cain would never have been a 'visitor' the the Hilton if he hadn't invaded a country called Vietnam.

Correct. But Soldiers, Airforce and Navy are told where to go. 
Australians were sent there to, but i don’t blame them. I blame the Politicians who sent the orders

8 minutes ago, I'va Worn Smith said:

Guys, please get on topic and take your other debate to DM.

 

 

Respectfully, this is very much on topic.

We are getting to the stage of disassembling the abuse that umpires receive vs indigenous people.

A part of playing down the severity of racial abuse is saying ‘yes but there are other kinds of abusive behaviours that occur which isn’t good’. 
 

When people try and compare different kinds of abuse with each other for the sake of equating them, then I think it’s useful to have discussions which prove it otherwise.

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by BoBo

10 minutes ago, I'va Worn Smith said:

Me too.  Yet it is now a beautiful country, with beautiful people.  Why did so many people die for a cause that was no more than trying to stop imaginary dominoes from falling?

No words can describe why the Vietnam War took place. It was so wrong and pointless….

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Correct. But Soldiers, Airforce and Navy are told where to go. 
Australians were sent there to, but i don’t blame them. I blame the Politicians who sent the orders

So true.  I was against the war and was 2 years short of being conscripted.  Even being against the war, I will always admire those brave men and women who were told by their Government to go.  They did not deserve the treatment they received when they came home, even if the war was morally wrong.  Politicians, as so often is the way, drove this appalling travesty.

8 minutes ago, I'va Worn Smith said:

Guys, please get on topic and take your other debate to DM.

Out of all this I truly hope we can stamp out racism.  A big ask but it can be done

We can possibly shut down the public utterances although there's always going to be one who chances their arm

But the racism won't go away, especially on the net.  So I agree with others that social media platforms need much stronger regulation.

Governments need to come down hard on these sites and the sites themselves need very strong checks & balances. 

Free speech ... with caveats.  Traceable accounts with full details etc.  The racists are there now and there is a way of shutting them down on those platforms

For instance, I've given my full details to this site and was happy to do so.  I'm not sure but name, address, phone number etc but I may wrong with some of that (10 years ago)

14 minutes ago, I'va Worn Smith said:

Me too.  Yet it is now a beautiful country, with beautiful people.  Why did so many people die for a cause that was no more than trying to stop imaginary dominoes from falling?

Because American foreign policy is grotesque

3 minutes ago, BoBo said:

Respectfully, this is very much on topic.

We are getting to the stage of disassembling the abuse that umpires receive vs indigenous people.

A part of playing down the severity of racial abuse is saying ‘yes but there are other kinds of abusive behaviours that occur which isn’t good’. 
 

When people try and compare different kinds of abuse with each other for the sake of equating them, then I think it’s useful to have discussions which prove it otherwise.

Abuse of umpires and endemic, systemic and institutional abuse of indigenous people do not warrant comparison.  In fact, any comparison is odious.

4 minutes ago, I'va Worn Smith said:

Abuse of umpires and endemic, systemic and institutional abuse of indigenous people do not warrant comparison.  In fact, any comparison is odious.

I have the same opinion that you do. I’m trying to understand where @Macca is coming from and asking for him to substantiate the positions he has.

If he sees umpire abuse and racial abuse as anywhere near comparible, then I would like an explanation as to how. If we want to actually discuss racism, then these are the claims that need to be challenged and understood in my opinion.

I’m glad it’s gotten to this stage where other peoples views are being brought into and we can discuss and formulate reasoned discussion about comparisons. It’s the only way we learn and it isn’t pretty.

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by BoBo

11 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Correct. But Soldiers, Airforce and Navy are told where to go. 
Australians were sent there to, but i don’t blame them. I blame the Politicians who sent the orders

I agree: my father was conscripted into the Wehrmacht in 1941. He was17. His first gig was the road to Stalingrad.

4 minutes ago, Larry, Moe or Curly said:

Because American foreign policy is grotesque

As well as the Australian policy, proffered by the late Harold Holt; "All the way with LBJ".  Aussie kids died as well, a number of them being conscripts

6 minutes ago, BoBo said:

Ok cool then we partially agree.

So what is the content of the abuse that is generally aimed at umpires that you disagree with? As in, is the abuse about their identity as a class of people in this society? Or is it aimed at them personally as people because of their actions as umpires?

 

All of it ... it's mostly unnecessary though (the abuse)

I'm more interested in how games are really won ... real ralent, good game plan and top coaching

Umpiring decisions make up about 5% - 10%  of a game in my view so the abuse is so over the top. Some decisions are vital of course

What do the umpires make  ... 40 decisions?

But both teams combined make up to a 1000 decisions by hand or foot.  And that's without all the 2-way running and running to position

2 minutes ago, BoBo said:

I have the same opinion that you do. I’m trying to understand where @Macca is coming from and asking for him to substantiate the positions he has.

If he sees umpire abuse and racial abuse as anywhere near compatible, then I would like an explanation as to how. If we want to actually discuss racism, then these are the claims that need to be challenged and understood in my opinion.

Then simply send each other personal messages, so that you can both understand, but get it off here.  It's becoming tedious now.

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

All of it ... it's mostly unnecessary though (the abuse)

I'm more interested in how games are really won ... real ralent, good game plan and top coaching

Umpiring decisions make up about 5% - 10%  of a game in my view so the abuse is so over the top. Some decisions are vital of course

What do the umpires make  ... 40 decisions?

But both teams combined make up to a 1000 decisions by hand or foot.  And that's without all the 2-way running and running to position

FFS.

Stop. Please.

1 minute ago, I'va Worn Smith said:

Then simply send each other personal messages, so that you can both understand, but get it off here.  It's becoming tedious now.

If the Moderators se fit to stop this thread then that’s fine.

 

I am asking legitimate questions which are very much on topic and speaking for myself, I am not getting pulled away into other topics. The question of comparing abuse (I.e. racial or against umpires) which I am challenging directly, is absolutely pertinent to the discussion of racism as it’s a tactic to downplay the effects of racial abuse whether people know it or not.

You are not the arbiter of what is acceptable to discuss here and you don’t need to keep reading this thread.

3 minutes ago, BoBo said:

If the Moderators se fit to stop this thread then that’s fine.

 

I am asking legitimate questions which are very much on topic and speaking for myself, I am not getting pulled away into other topics. The question of comparing abuse (I.e. racial or against umpires) which I am challenging directly, is absolutely pertinent to the discussion of racism as it’s a tactic to downplay the effects of racial abuse whether people know it or not.

You are not the arbiter of what is acceptable to discuss here and you don’t need to keep reading this thread.

 Correct, I am not.  But the essence of indigenous villification cannot be compared to verbally abusing umpires.  The perpetuation or tolerance of racism through the agency of the likes of Trump is relevant to this topic.  I do not have the power to shut you down.  i am just asking that if you and Macca want to debate the relativity of umpire abuse to racism - as is the title of this topic - then have your own debate through personal messaging.  It devalues the essence of the importance of racism that you continue to equate the 2 issues.