3 minutes ago, Akum said:

Or was Watts supposed to overcome all the other deficiencies of all the teams he's played in? No wonder 'some' are disappointed.

I am on a rant now. He isn't a KPF at all, he plays as a 3rd tall that is good on the lead. He can take contested marks one on one sometimes but I honestly can't remember the last time he took an actual pack mark. The deficiencies in our teams are irrelevant, if you are good enough you will affect the game in a positive way. He has had ONE good year and maybe 2 ok years. What the heck is going on. This is all conjecture but god damn it is the most disappointing thing by far for me that he hasn't been selected for the past two preseason games because of "poor training standards". I will be the first to praise him if he plays round one and dominates believe me.

4 hours ago, fndee said:

Yes they are all stars of the game but if you can't divorce expectations from his draft pick perhaps you should have a look at his draft

Top ten were;

Watts

NicNat

Hill

Hartlett

Hurley

Yarran

Rich

Vickery

Ziebell and 

Davis

No Pendles, Bonts or Judds in that lot. 

 

 

True, some disappointments there.  Back to Watts.

If pivk one isn't A-grade, you at least want B-grade.

Unfortunately, Watts has had a C-grade career.  He's produced one B-grade year.  Let's hope he can build on it.  He has a chance to make his next 5 years A-grade.  The innate talent is there.

10 minutes ago, ProDee said:

True, some disappointments there.  Back to Watts.

If pivk one isn't A-grade, you at least want B-grade.

Unfortunately, Watts has had a C-grade career.  He's produced one B-grade year.  Let's hope he can build on it.  He has a chance to make his next 5 years A-grade.  The innate talent is there.

The talent may be but the courage and sheer desperation to go and go again is lacking in my opinion and I think thats what this team is all about this year.

15 minutes ago, doc roet said:

The talent may be but the courage and sheer desperation to go and go again is lacking in my opinion and I think thats what this team is all about this year.

I agree, Doc.

Be careful you don't whip yourself into a gyrating frenzy over Jack Watts, ProDee. 

On 3/1/2017 at 8:05 PM, ProDee said:

No.  My disappointment is based on output.

One good year in 8.

A horrible disappointment.

I enjoyed what Watts brought to the table for most of last year.

The best you can ask for of any player is they make the most of the abilities they have been given and on their weekly performances, you want  the smallest of gaps between a players best and worst. Nathan Jones will never be elite in my opinion but over the past 5 years he almost always plays to his ceiling and the gap between his best and worst has been narrow hence he receives all the accolades he deserves.

Prior to last year Watts teased us with delicious moments but that's about it.

I am not sure there is objectivity on here regarding Watts resume to date. Pretty simple for me - He had his best year last albeit with a drop off over the last weeks ( he wasn't Robinson Crusoe) before then his good and bad were acres apart. (with not enough good)

10 hours ago, fndee said:

Yes they are all stars of the game but if you can't divorce expectations from his draft pick perhaps you should have a look at his draft

Top ten were;

Watts

NicNat

Hill

Hartlett

Hurley

Yarran

Rich

Vickery

Ziebell and 

Davis

No Pendles, Bonts or Judds in that lot. 

 

 

From that list the only player who is close to Watts in terms of consistent output and therefore value for selection is Hurley. And Hurley in my view is incredibly over rated. I suspect most recruiters if selecting from that list right now would choose Hurley 1 and Watts 2nd (i'd have them around the other way because i suspect Watts will continue where he left off last year and end up being a more valuable player than Hurley over his caeer).

3 minutes ago, binman said:

From that list the only player who is close to Watts in terms of consistent output and therefore value for selection is Hurley. And Hurley in my view is incredibly over rated. I suspect most recruiters if selecting from that list right now would choose Hurley 1 and Watts 2nd (i'd have them around the other way because i suspect Watts will continue where he left off last year and end up being a more valuable player than Hurley over his caeer).

I think you are being harsh on Ziebell - however - how other footballers from other clubs are judged/perceived is a matter for them.  We are only talking about the player is who on our list.

24 minutes ago, nutbean said:

I think you are being harsh on Ziebell - however - how other footballers from other clubs are judged/perceived is a matter for them.  We are only talking about the player is who on our list.

Perhaps but Ziebell is only a few notches above a journey man and has long hit his ceiling. i guess my point is disappointment is relative. Am i disappointed that Watss has not delivered on the promise ALL number 1 draft picks bring with them when drafted (and not just in our sport). Yes, i would have loved a Reiwoldt or Hodge.

But am i disappointed we selected Watts in the 2008 draft? No, not when you look at the likely other choices - and that includes Hurley who is a sook and probably would not be close to the player he is now if he had experienced the woeful development Watts has had to endure until the last 3 years or so (which not surprisingly conicides with his improvement as player - Watts that is). 

For context here is the last 25 years of number 1 picks. Not many Reiwoldts in this lot:

1990    Stephen Hooper    Geelong    
1991    John Hutton    Brisbane Bears   
1992    Drew Banfield    West Coast Eagles    
1993    Darren Gaspar    Sydney    
1994    Jeff White    
1995    Clive Waterhouse    
1996    Michael Gardiner    West Coast Eagles    
1997    Travis Johnstone    Melbourne    
1998    Des Headland    Brisbane Lions    
1999    Josh Fraser    Collingwood    
2000    Nick Riewoldt    St Kilda    
2001    Luke Hodge    Hawthorn

2002    Brendon Goddard    St Kilda

2003    Adam Cooney    Western Bulldogs    
2004    Brett Deledio    Richmond  
2005    Marc Murphy    Carlton   
2006    Bryce Gibbs    Carlton    
2007    Matthew Kreuzer    Carlton    
2008    Jack Watts    Melbourne    
2009    Tom Scully    Melbourne    
2010    David Swallow    Gold Coast  
2011    Jonathon Patton    Greater Western Sydney    
2012    Lachie Whitfield    Greater Western Sydney    
2013    Tom Boyd    Greater Western Sydney    
2014    Paddy McCartin    St Kilda    
2015    Jacob Weitering    Carlton    
2016    Andrew McGrath    Essendon    

37 minutes ago, binman said:

Perhaps but Ziebell is only a few notches above a journey man and has long hit his ceiling. i guess my point is disappointment is relative. Am i disappointed that Watss has not delivered on the promise ALL number 1 draft picks bring with them when drafted (and not just in our sport). Yes, i would have loved a Reiwoldt or Hodge.

But am i disappointed we selected Watts in the 2008 draft? No, not when you look at the likely other choices - and that includes Hurley who is a sook and probably would not be close to the player he is now if he had experienced the woeful development Watts has had to endure until the last 3 years or so (which not surprisingly conicides with his improvement as player - Watts that is). 

For context here is the last 25 years of number 1 picks. Not many Reiwoldts in this lot:

1990    Stephen Hooper    Geelong    
1991    John Hutton    Brisbane Bears   
1992    Drew Banfield    West Coast Eagles    
1993    Darren Gaspar    Sydney    
1994    Jeff White    
1995    Clive Waterhouse    
1996    Michael Gardiner    West Coast Eagles    
1997    Travis Johnstone    Melbourne    
1998    Des Headland    Brisbane Lions    
1999    Josh Fraser    Collingwood    
2000    Nick Riewoldt    St Kilda    
2001    Luke Hodge    Hawthorn

2002    Brendon Goddard    St Kilda

2003    Adam Cooney    Western Bulldogs    
2004    Brett Deledio    Richmond  
2005    Marc Murphy    Carlton   
2006    Bryce Gibbs    Carlton    
2007    Matthew Kreuzer    Carlton    
2008    Jack Watts    Melbourne    
2009    Tom Scully    Melbourne    
2010    David Swallow    Gold Coast  
2011    Jonathon Patton    Greater Western Sydney    
2012    Lachie Whitfield    Greater Western Sydney    
2013    Tom Boyd    Greater Western Sydney    
2014    Paddy McCartin    St Kilda    
2015    Jacob Weitering    Carlton    
2016    Andrew McGrath    Essendon    

Not upset we took him. I'm upset that apart from last year he has underperformed.

How about an endless thread bagging 10 ex-players who have "disappointed" over the last decade rather than focus on one who is still actually in the team, and barring an apparent 'intensity' issue, was one of our best last year.

7 hours ago, doc roet said:

The talent may be but the courage and sheer desperation to go and go again is lacking in my opinion and I think thats what this team is all about this year.

This.

Even at his best last year Watts still lacked that true grit and competitiveness that we need.

9 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

This.

Even at his best last year Watts still lacked that true grit and competitiveness that we need.

Those one armed tackles....

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Those one armed tackles....

Standing up in the tackle against Hawthorn in the dying minutes was one time he did show grit, we just need more of it.

20 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Standing up in the tackle against Hawthorn in the dying minutes was one time he did show grit, we just need more of it.

Absolutely. He can do it. It just has to be automatic. 

I saw JW play a few games of schoolboy footy. He was that good he didn't have to try. I am sure this is where it all stems from. 

20 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

This.

Even at his best last year Watts still lacked that true grit and competitiveness that we need.

No, sorry i can't agree with this. Whilst no viney (who is) Wattsy's competitiveness and grit was terrific last year. As was his gut running and ability to stay in the contest. For Pete's sake he was our second ruckman last year and regularly had blokes 10-15kg heavier jumping into him.

And while i'm at it i'm a bit over suggestions he was just ok last year. He was fantastic and won at least 2 games for us, played every game and really only played 2-3 poor to average games. He had a better year than Hogan.  Which is why he came 5th in our B & F. If he has a similar year this year he will be in AA discussions at the end of the season.

Whilst i'm disappointed he has not met internal KPIs let's not make the mistake of rewriting history. Make no mistake if we are to make the finals we will need Watts playing. Full stop. he is as important to our chances as Hogan. And i have no doubt Goodwin knows this. This quote from him is very instructive:  

"WHEN Jack comes back in the team we're going to have a really good player on our hands" 

PD has had his fun and must be chuckling at how long the Watts thread is and the fact this one keeps growing. It also provides him plenty of opportunity to ventilate his 'disappointment' in Jack (is there a psychologist in the house?). But let's keep things in the proper perspective.

I for one will back Jack in and expect him to reach the heights of last year and be a key factor in our rise up the ladder. Anyone up for any bets?

1 hour ago, sue said:

How about an endless thread bagging 10 ex-players who have "disappointed" over the last decade rather than focus on one who is still actually in the team, and barring an apparent 'intensity' issue, was one of our best last year.

Because those 10 ex players are exactly that ? ex players ?

1 hour ago, nutbean said:

Because those 10 ex players are exactly that ? ex players ?

So we can pick on Watts because he was the only disappointment to be not so disappointing that he is still there.

My point is that there is too much focus on one bloke just because the recruiters (who are so often castigated as idiots on here) chose him as #1.  If those idiot recruiters had chosen him at pick 40 we'd be saying what a great pick-up he was, though he could be more 'intense'.

Edited March 3, 20178 yr by sue

6 minutes ago, sue said:

So we can pick on Watts because he was the only disappointment to be not so disappointing that he is still there.

My point is that there is too much focus on one bloke just because the recruiters (who are so often castigated as idiots on here) chose him as #1.  If those idiot recruiters had chosen him at pick 40 we'd be saying what a great pick-up he was, though he could be more 'intense'.

No. As a schoolboy he was always going to get picked at or close to #1. He was that good

trouble was he never learnt to push himself. He didn't have to as a kid

Football or Basketball

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

No. As a schoolboy he was always going to get picked at or close to #1. He was that good

trouble was he never learnt to push himself. He didn't have to as a kid

Football or Basketball

Don't see the relevance.  Sure, he was an obvious pick 1 choice to even the dumbest recruiter. Doesn't affect what I said.   He mainly gets this intense focus because of being pick 1.   Just because he is worse than some other pick 1's  the press (and sadly demonland) is obsessed with him. - probably they'd have been no fuss if the MFC had been a better club during his time too, rather than hanging out for saviours. 

He's a better pick 1 than many other pick 1's.  For that we should be glad and hope that Mr Goodwin's current ploy will enhance him and not the reverse. 

5 minutes ago, sue said:

For that we should be glad and hope that Mr Goodwin's current ploy will enhance him and not the reverse. 

That's up to Jack.

20 minutes ago, sue said:

Don't see the relevance.  Sure, he was an obvious pick 1 choice to even the dumbest recruiter. Doesn't affect what I said.   He mainly gets this intense focus because of being pick 1.   Just because he is worse than some other pick 1's  the press (and sadly demonland) is obsessed with him. - probably they'd have been no fuss if the MFC had been a better club during his time too, rather than hanging out for saviours. 

He's a better pick 1 than many other pick 1's.  For that we should be glad and hope that Mr Goodwin's current ploy will enhance him and not the reverse. 

There is always discussion about JW on here because he rarely gets the very best out of himself, because some of us saw how good he was as a schoolboy.

It's actually quite simple

 

20 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

There is always discussion about JW on here because he rarely gets the very best out of himself, because some of us saw how good he was as a schoolboy.

It's actually quite simple

 

Wow. How many posts have I read saying that what a schoolboy is like bears little resemblance to performance at AFL level.  So still leaves the question 'why Jack'.  For Demon supporters during a bleak time I think it comes down to him not being the messiah.  The motivations of the press are less nice.

And yes ClintB, it is down to him if he gets better or worse.  Doesn't change the fact that it may turn out to be a mistake on the part of the club to have put the pressure on. Let's hope not.

13 hours ago, doc roet said:

The talent may be but the courage and sheer desperation to go and go again is lacking in my opinion and I think thats what this team is all about this year.

Yes.

And if we had the depth of list, coaching set-up, standards and 'culture' (*shudder*) back then that we do today, he would have been made to learn a lot earlier how to operate at AFL level.

Whilst it was understandably frustrating that Watts greatly lacked the required level of intensity, purpose and physicality to play at AFL level from the day he walked in, it was equally just as frustrating that the club continued to play him early days, completely neglecting these obvious traits that have troubled him throughout his career and clearly still do today.

Goody and the coaches are just doing exactly what should have been done from the day he walked through the door.

Disappointing on both parts.

Hopefully we'll see a hungrier Jack Watts come round 1.

 

Edited March 3, 20178 yr by stevethemanjordan

11 minutes ago, sue said:

And yes ClintB, it is down to him if he gets better or worse.  Doesn't change the fact that it may turn out to be a mistake on the part of the club to have put the pressure on. Let's hope not.

I'm with Deestroy All on this, from what I've heard there is more to it than just bad training habits.