2 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

I smell a rat.

American politics - no matter which side, which party, which candidate - the rat smell permeates...

(actually all politics)

 

38 minutes ago, Jara said:

Wrecker, re your last point, about Clinton's home server. By the time they said that, the damage had been done. Releasing the information about a new probe a week out from the election was (as far as I can recall, which may not be far) a real game changer - derailed her campaign - refocused attention on the "Crooked Hillary" thing.

The one thing that I think Trump said which now resonates is 

Donald Trump Says He Will Win on Surge of Silent Supporters - WSJ

I think that this absolutely happened.

It's the "Benny Hill show syndrome" - I watch it but I sure as hell I don't tell anyone that I do...

 

 

4 minutes ago, nutbean said:

American politics - no matter which side, which party, which candidate - the rat smell permeates...

(actually all politics)

 

actually, 'politics' is a synonym of 'rats'

36 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

actually, 'politics' is a synonym of 'rats'

Rattus Politicus

1 hour ago, Jara said:

Wrecker, re your last point, about Clinton's home server. By the time they said that, the damage had been done. Releasing the information about a new probe a week out from the election was (as far as I can recall, which may not be far) a real game changer - derailed her campaign - refocused attention on the "Crooked Hillary" thing.

It was James Comey Director of the FBI who re-opened the case on Clinton.

It was the Department of Justice who cleared Clinton very quickly but wont confirm or deny the wiretap on Trump.

Ultimately the Department of Justice has administrative control of the FBI but they are separate entities.

1 hour ago, nutbean said:

The one thing that I think Trump said which now resonates is 

Donald Trump Says He Will Win on Surge of Silent Supporters - WSJ

I think that this absolutely happened.

It's the "Benny Hill show syndrome" - I watch it but I sure as hell I don't tell anyone that I do...

 

 

Hey what's wrong with the Benny Hill Show?

Amateur hour  - does this clown even listen to what he is saying ?

Sean Spicer after the head of the FBI, NSA and the heads of the house and senate intelligence committee plus the past National Security advisor all have stated that there is no evidence of Obama tapping Trumps phones -  The press asking for comment   “I get you guys want to know the end of the book right now. But we are on the first chapter of this process,” Spicer said. 

Then five minutes later

Spicer also urged people to stop trying to find evidence of collusion between the Russian government and the Trump campaign, saying that you shouldn’t search for something that doesn’t exist. 

“There’s a point at which you continue to search for something that everybody who has been briefed hasn’t seen or found. ... So you can continue to look for something, but continuing to look for something that doesn’t exist, doesn’t matter,” 

Irony bypass.....

The whole "Obama wire-tapped me" thing by Trump doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

If he was tapped, it means whoever requested the tap had probable cause and had to present that to a judge to authorise the monitoring. If this is the case, Trump wouldn't want that probable cause to be made public.

If he was not tapped, it means he's just flat out made stuff up. This is probably not much of an issue to him though as his constituents don't seem to care when he makes things up. No one's held him to account on his accusations of 3 million fraudulent voters. I'm not sure the US electorate cares.

 

Of greater concern to me is the ongoing investigation of Trump campaign members' links to Russia and their subsequent influence on the election. Comey said today (or yesterday I think) that the FBI are investigating those links, but there is no evidence yet of collusion. What we know already about Flynn, Sessions and Manafort however ads to the bad smell emanating from the campaign. All the information the public has right now is circumstantial, with many facts still classified as part of the investigation.

We still don't know if Flynn will be prosecuted for a possible violation of the Logan act.

I honestly don't get it. Trump is probably borderline insane but you cannot become President against all odds without some smarts. He doesn't drink so he is not just getting blind and tweeting rubbish. Something set him off. I honestly hope it was more than just right wing conspiracy news.

And then there is FBI director James Comey who a week out from the election re-opens the Clinton case (it stinks) then shuts it down again days before the election. The damage was done. The same bloke now comes out and says they are investigating Russian links to Republicans in the alleged Russian hacking. Has Comey got look at me syndrome? He would want to have this one right because he is looking pretty silly at the moment.

 

27 minutes ago, Choke said:

The whole "Obama wire-tapped me" thing by Trump doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

If he was tapped, it means whoever requested the tap had probable cause and had to present that to a judge to authorise the monitoring. If this is the case, Trump wouldn't want that probable cause to be made public.

If he was not tapped, it means he's just flat out made stuff up. This is probably not much of an issue to him though as his constituents don't seem to care when he makes things up. No one's held him to account on his accusations of 3 million fraudulent voters. I'm not sure the US electorate cares.

 

 

The 3rd and problematic possibility is that a sitting president was "wire tapping" a potential political rival to his party without probable cause. As far as I can read into it, they had permission to investigate dealings with a Russian bank originally but then kept the tap going. But there is so much contradictory news on it I don't know what to believe.

The funny thing is the more officials that come out and say Trump wasn't being "wire tapped" the more I believe he was. It is just so messy it is impossible to seperate fact from fiction. This works to Trump's advantage. I don't think it's a confirmation bias thing by me, I have plenty of that but admit it when it's there. He is at war with the media and the Government agencies and it takes two to Tango.

It would be a massive scandal if he was tapped without probable cause.

I personally think it's more likely he wasn't tapped at all, or that he only thinks he was because he saw it on Fox News.

There's not much we can do except hope the truth actually comes out.

17 minutes ago, Choke said:

It would be a massive scandal if he was tapped without probable cause.

I personally think it's more likely he wasn't tapped at all, or that he only thinks he was because he saw it on Fox News.

There's not much we can do except hope the truth actually comes out.

Completely agree Choke. 

We can all only hope for the truth but the problem is even if we got it, i doubt most of us would believe it.

Who can you trust in all this?

Certainly not Trump, the Clintons the CIA, the DOJ. James Comey looks an idiot at the moment but i probably trust him most.

Even if we were staring at the truth we probably wouldn't know.

 

1 hour ago, Wrecker45 said:

Completely agree Choke. 

We can all only hope for the truth but the problem is even if we got it, i doubt most of us would believe it.

Who can you trust in all this?

Certainly not Trump, the Clintons the CIA, the DOJ. James Comey looks an idiot at the moment but i probably trust him most.

Even if we were staring at the truth we probably wouldn't know.

 

Agreed. This is a massive issue.

As you say, Comey is probably the best we have. All we can do is look at his actual quotes and interviews when this all comes out and ignore the surrounding [censored] of deflections.

The other thing is IF the Russian's were leaking (and they probably were):

1) What was leaked from the Podesta emails, although illegally obtained, is still accurate. 

2) I'm guessing they have emails from Republicans too

3) Why do the Russian's back Trump? it's not like he is a stooge who can be bought. He could probably buy Russia.

Obama be rich now!! 

MF ridin'yachts wit Richard Branson,Skiing the slopes of Switzerland like James Bond.

MF ain't nowhere near them poor people in Detroit naaaawww.uh ahh.

Bro be creamin.

29 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

The other thing is IF the Russian's were leaking (and they probably were):

1) What was leaked from the Podesta emails, although illegally obtained, is still accurate. 

2) I'm guessing they have emails from Republicans too

3) Why do the Russian's back Trump? it's not like he is a stooge who can be bought. He could probably buy Russia.

1) Correct - and it's extremely disappointing that the DNC acted in such a corrupt manner.

2) We don't know of course, but like you I think that's likely

3) NFI. I've heard some theories so far (not mine, but have read these):

   a) The ability as a foreign power to influence an election to this magnitude weakens American Democracy as a whole, to the comparative benefit of Russia.

   b) They have something on him and feel they can control him, or, they feel they have a better chance of manipulating him given his extreme lack of political experience.

    c) He has business links that are not public (remember he and many of his cabinet appointees have not disclosed conflicts of interest) that benefit them both with him as POTUS. I lean towards this one, given that he flies to his resort every weekend and recently raised room prices there. This means every time he goes, the American taxpayer pays for his accommodation and that of the secret service. Who do they pay? Why, the owner of the resort of course! I wonder who that is! It's disgusting. Given he's ok with this, I wouldn't be surprised if he has Russian business ties.

6 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

I honestly don't get it. Trump is probably borderline insane but you cannot become President against all odds without some smarts. He doesn't drink so he is not just getting blind and tweeting rubbish. Something set him off. I honestly hope it was more than just right wing conspiracy news.

And then there is FBI director James Comey who a week out from the election re-opens the Clinton case (it stinks) then shuts it down again days before the election. The damage was done. The same bloke now comes out and says they are investigating Russian links to Republicans in the alleged Russian hacking. Has Comey got look at me syndrome? He would want to have this one right because he is looking pretty silly at the moment.

 

But you know the FBI doesn't comment on ongoing investigations..... right.....

Comey is definitely an ophthalmologist- he is an "I" specialist. 

1 hour ago, Wrecker45 said:

The other thing is IF the Russian's were leaking (and they probably were):

1) What was leaked from the Podesta emails, although illegally obtained, is still accurate. 

2) I'm guessing they have emails from Republicans too

3) Why do the Russian's back Trump? it's not like he is a stooge who can be bought. He could probably buy Russia.

an intense and passionate dislike of anything Clinton.

4 hours ago, nutbean said:

an intense and passionate dislike of anything Clinton.

I guess that's where i begin and end my agreement with the Russians.

I was all for Tony Abbott and Putin coming to blows. 

31 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

I guess that's where i begin and end my agreement with the Russians.

I was all for Tony Abbott and Putin coming to blows. 

I think Putin might have won that stoush, if only that Putin would not be fighting according to the Marquess of Queensbury Rules. 

1 minute ago, Earl Hood said:

I think Putin might have won that stoush, if only that Putin would not be fighting according to the Marquess of Queensbury Rules. 

I lost faith in the rules when Danny Green got awarded points over Mundine. 

On 3/21/2017 at 10:15 AM, Wrecker45 said:

I honestly don't get it. Trump is probably borderline insane but you cannot become President against all odds without some smarts. He doesn't drink so he is not just getting blind and tweeting rubbish. Something set him off. I honestly hope it was more than just right wing conspiracy news.

And then there is FBI director James Comey who a week out from the election re-opens the Clinton case (it stinks) then shuts it down again days before the election. The damage was done. The same bloke now comes out and says they are investigating Russian links to Republicans in the alleged Russian hacking. Has Comey got look at me syndrome? He would want to have this one right because he is looking pretty silly at the moment.

 

After so much more reading, Comey has got to go.

Both sides of politics can shout that Comey's revelations about the FBI investigation into Clinton's mail server weeks before the election either cost her the election or had little impact - it didn't help her cause but cost her the election ? who would know.

What is clear is Comey has said the investigation into Trump's (or his campaign) ties to Russia dates back to last July. That means there were two active FBI investigations involving Presidential candidates or their campaign staff during the electoral cycle and Comey went public on one of them only. Hmmm. 

1 hour ago, nutbean said:

After so much more reading, Comey has got to go.

Both sides of politics can shout that Comey's revelations about the FBI investigation into Clinton's mail server weeks before the election either cost her the election or had little impact - it didn't help her cause but cost her the election ? who would know.

What is clear is Comey has said the investigation into Trump's (or his campaign) ties to Russia dates back to last July. That means there were two active FBI investigations involving Presidential candidates or their campaign staff during the electoral cycle and Comey went public on one of them only. Hmmm. 

Comey is compromised. Is he part of the swamp?

If Trump was being investigated in July it SHOULD have been advised to the public like Clinton's was. 

But this where it get's grubby. Why was Trump being monitored? We all know why Clinton was being investigated and i don't think anyone can impartially say she had a good reason to delete 30,000 emails from a private server then bleach them so they could never be recovered. I don't care if it was bleached slightly before a court order to release them. As a citizen i wouldn't get the benefit of the doubt if i did such a thing.

24 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

Comey is compromised. Is he part of the swamp?

If Trump was being investigated in July it SHOULD have been advised to the public like Clinton's was. 

But this where it get's grubby. Why was Trump being monitored? We all know why Clinton was being investigated and i don't think anyone can impartially say she had a good reason to delete 30,000 emails from a private server then bleach them so they could never be recovered. I don't care if it was bleached slightly before a court order to release them. As a citizen i wouldn't get the benefit of the doubt if i did such a thing.

I am not arguing the respective right or wrongs of any investigations. - there is either has to be full transparency and disclosure of FBI investigations or none - Comey has had 50 cents each way. He disclosed the Clinton investigation and said nothing about the Trump investigation. 

"Did you answer Sen. Wyden that there is an investigation underway as to connections between either political campaign and the Russians?" King asked.

"I didn't say one way or another. That was my intention at least," Comey said.

"You didn't say one way or another even as to whether there's an investigation underway?" King asked.

"Correct. Especially in a public forum, we don't confirm or deny a pending investigations," Comey said.

"The irony of your making that statement here I cannot avoid, but I'll move on," King said.

I actually disagree with disclosure -  NOTHING should be advised to the public until there is a conclusion and finding on any investigation. Rightly or wrongly the FBI did not recommend criminal charges against Clinton - yet she did not get "nothing further to see here " until a few days before the election after early voting had already opened and after a week of the headline of the FBI investigating being splashed all over the front pages of every media outlet. On the flip side - many are commenting that their is collusion between the Russians and the Trump team. There is a major difference between the Trump team talking to the Russians and Trump team colluding to attempt to influence the course of an election - there is a dirty stink cloud over Trumps dealings with the Russians and that is before the investigation has been completed. Whilst the investigation was not revealed in July when it started - Comey again has spoken about an investigation PRIOR to the conclusion of the investigation.

This leads to the perception of wrong doing and "guilty until proven innocent".

The FBI should remain resolute and go with "we neither confirm nor deny" until investigations are finished. The trouble with that is there will always be leaks but at least the FBI can maintain some sort of integrity - IMO - they have zero at the moment and that is due to Comey and his commentary.

3 hours ago, nutbean said:

After so much more reading, Comey has got to go.

Both sides of politics can shout that Comey's revelations about the FBI investigation into Clinton's mail server weeks before the election either cost her the election or had little impact - it didn't help her cause but cost her the election ? who would know.

What is clear is Comey has said the investigation into Trump's (or his campaign) ties to Russia dates back to last July. That means there were two active FBI investigations involving Presidential candidates or their campaign staff during the electoral cycle and Comey went public on one of them only. Hmmm. 

Was going to say the same re the Trump/Russia ties investigation dating back to July

Imagine if that news had been made public back then?  Then again any investigation of this sort might be compromised if it's made public.  

Didn't stop Comey from going public on the Hillary investigation (which lasted a week)

Regardless, I'm not sure full disclosure would have changed the minds of Trump voters anyway.  Hindsight tells us they seemed to be well and truly locked in.  Those rust belt States were his.  

Other, associated issues would have come into play.  Trump won the Republican nomination on July 19 so that might have been a close call (re the investigation starting date)

Anyway, interesting times ahead (as always)

Edited March 23, 20178 yr by Macca