The knock on McKenzie's disposal is overstated. He has a disposal efficiency of over 70% in 2013 where he played as a tagger and got the ball in pressure situations. It was higher than players such as McLean and Melksham who played in finals teams and is very similar to Montagna. His disposal efficiency on the weekend was over 90% and he was involved in scoring assists for our second and third goal. His kick to Frawley in the first was a ripper.

He's not fashionable, I get that, but he's effective in the job he does and he's clean with the ball. If the midfield goes past him then that's good for us but I think under Roos he'll have a role for a while yet.

I thought his efficiency over the past two years has been patchy at best - but I put that down to the immense pressure situations., in a crap midfield and having no-one remotely free to give it to and having only adequate extraction skills ( unlike Mitchell who is freakish).

It didnt surprise me that his disposal was noticeably better on Saturday because our spread was better - I think if it is kept simple like Saturday he adds value and agree with you that I think he has a role.

Edited April 14, 201411 yr by nutbean

Who says he's a one-trick stopping pony?

He averages more possessions/game than Crowley (16.1 v 14.8 (2013), 17.7 v 14.5 (career)).

Last time we played GC the possession differential Ablett v Jordie was +3 to Ablett (19 v 16). McKenna squealed like a pig for a week.

On Friday night the Cotchin v Macaffer differential was +4 to Cotchin (13 v 9) and everyone included Hardwick and Cotchin sang Macaffer's praises to high heaven.

Who would take +3 to Ablett on Sunday?

How Demonlanders see Jordie is a very good indicator of the depth of their understanding of the modern game.

Are you talking handballs travelling up to a metre or his pinpoint kicks?

Now you're being silly. The stats don't support you.

And comparing him to Nathan Jones is just proving the points Nutbean and I are making. But you probably don't understand that.

Who would take +3 to Ablett on Sunday?

me ! me ! pick me !!!!!

Now you're being silly. The stats don't support you.

And comparing him to Nathan Jones is just proving the points Nutbean and I are making. But you probably don't understand that.

We won the tackle count for the game but in the first half I would say most tackles laid by the majority of players were ineffective. If a player can dispose of the ball for mine it's an ineffective tackle. Stats can work both ways. I'm comparing Jordie to what I consider to be a base level of skill for AFL. If we want to move up the ladder players if his ability or less must be moved on. As far this season is concerned he's here, he's fit and other players are injured or being made to understand so he gets a game.

That much I get.

We won the tackle count for the game but in the first half I would say most tackles laid by the majority of players were ineffective. If a player can dispose of the ball for mine it's an ineffective tackle. Stats can work both ways. I'm comparing Jordie to what I consider to be a base level of skill for AFL. If we want to move up the ladder players if his ability or less must be moved on. As far this season is concerned he's here, he's fit and other players are injured or being made to understand so he gets a game.

That much I get.

What on earth have "tackle counts" got to do with disposal efficiency of a player (which is what we were discussing)?

And of course now you're saying the tackle count is an ineffective measure, despite Roos saying that it was the most important statistic we had on Saturday,

If McKenzie didn't have the skill level of an AFL footballer how come he has a higher possession rate than Crowley and an effective disposal rate the equivalent of AFL footballers? The reality is your opinion of McKenzie is not supported by measurable identifiers and you're too stubborn to recognize that. Well, I'll assume it's stubbornness for now.

As to Jordies eff and accuracy, please watch the first qtr of the game again. We scored 3 gls for the qtr, Jordie supplied 2 pinpoint passes for 2 of those gls.

The ones to Chip and Dawes. Cant kick , cant run, cant do anything but grab. Oh yee of little faith but then we could always use that speedstar Trentgove on Ablett. GOOD MOVE

What on earth have "tackle counts" got to do with disposal efficiency of a player (which is what we were discussing)?

And of course now you're saying the tackle count is an ineffective measure, despite Roos saying that it was the most important statistic we had on Saturday,

If McKenzie didn't have the skill level of an AFL footballer how come he has a higher possession rate than Crowley and an effective disposal rate the equivalent of AFL footballers? The reality is your opinion of McKenzie is not supported by measurable identifiers and you're too stubborn to recognize that. Well, I'll assume it's stubbornness for now.

- you mentioned Jordie's disposal efficiency was at 70?%, so i made the point was that for kicks of handballs, that stat is combined total, a player could have 7 effective handballs and 3 ineffective kicks and suddenly he's at 70% disposal efficiency. Sound familiar?.

- my point about tackles shows again that stats can not tell the whole story. In the second half out tackling improved, first half I thought most tackles were ineffective. Again a combined stat.

I also have the ability to think for myself and formulate my own opinions. What coaches say to the media isn't always what's discussed behind closed doors. I would like to think during the match review these ineffective tackles are identified, clubs like the Hawks, Freo and Geelong wouldn't overlook the importance of an effective tackle.

What I said with regards to Jordie stands, again it's purely my opinion.

again it's purely my opinion.

At least on that we can agree.

But you remind me of someone else who always quotes stats to support his view but when they don't he says "I rely on what I see and make my own judgements".

It's a great danger because it's usually wrong.

I didn't mind Jones tagging Murphy because he could get a lot of the ball himself.

But Jones tagging Ablett means Jones will be too focused on doing nothing but shutting down Ablett (which is impossible anyway), thereby nullifying his own influence on the game.

Jones is way too important and way too influential to "waste" on a purely shut down role.

Jordie did a good job on Ablett last time we played the Suns, and should get the job again. I also wouldn't mind seeing someone like Matt Jones, who has the leg speed, get the tagging job. If nothing else, it'll be a good football lessons.

As for Jordie, he isn't the most polished or the fastest, but he does something that we often don't see from Melbourne players, he attacks the footy and the man.

What he lacks in foot skills and "shine" he more than makes up for in defensive effort, so for now his upside far outweighs his downside. If that changes because our midfield becomes better, great, until then, he has more than earnt his place in the side.

At least on that we can agree.

But you remind me of someone else who always quotes stats to support his view but when they don't he says "I rely on what I see and make my own judgements".

It's a great danger because it's usually wrong.

I think my example of effective handballs v ineffective kicks shows how either side can use stats for the purpose of what they believe to be the case.

And no, im not here under differant aliases, there's not enough hours in the day.

If Jordie lines up on Ablett I hope he does well but as stated by someone earlier win loose or draw you should always look for areas to improve as a team.

Who says he's a one-trick stopping pony?

He averages more possessions/game than Crowley (16.1 v 14.8 (2013), 17.7 v 14.5 (career)).

Last time we played GC the possession differential Ablett v Jordie was +3 to Ablett (19 v 16). McKenna squealed like a pig for a week.

On Friday night the Cotchin v Macaffer differential was +4 to Cotchin (13 v 9) and everyone included Hardwick and Cotchin sang Macaffer's praises to high heaven.

Who would take +3 to Ablett on Sunday?

How Demonlanders see Jordie is a very good indicator of the depth of their understanding of the modern game.

Well thanks for that Oracle

Next time I need an assessment I will give you a call

No need to call Sunshine. Listen up and learn. Best of all, it's free!

I noticed that in the stats our disposal efficiency for last Saturday was higher than the Hawks for last weeks games. There must be something wrong there!

I noticed that in the stats our disposal efficiency for last Saturday was higher than the Hawks for last weeks games. There must be something wrong there!

Remember our game style has a lot of chip back and forth.

I feel safer with Jordie and Crossy in the team.....just makes it harder for the opposition.

Remember our game style has a lot of chip back and forth.

So does the Hawks!

However they recently played Freo which may have decreased their kicking from pressure acts.

Edited April 14, 201411 yr by Tyson_Viney_Toumpas

What I don't get is that it is our hope that under Roos we will become a much more disciplined, structured team. Under Roos we hope to see players who have stagnated ( or gone backwards) for the last 2-4 years improve. Watts will improve, Dunn will improve etc etc.

Some on here are not willing to extend the same courtesy to McKenzie. He is super tough, sticks close to his man. His disposal when given an extra few seconds is ok as shown on Saturday. As our team improves, as our stoppage work gets better, as our spread becomes more instinctive - all of these will benefit a player like McKenzie.

What I don't get is that it is our hope that under Roos we will become a much more disciplined, structured team. Under Roos we hope to see players who have stagnated ( or gone backwards) for the last 2-4 years improve. Watts will improve, Dunn will improve etc etc.

Some on here are not willing to extend the same courtesy to McKenzie. He is super tough, sticks close to his man. His disposal when given an extra few seconds is ok as shown on Saturday. As our team improves, as our stoppage work gets better, as our spread becomes more instinctive - all of these will benefit a player like McKenzie.

I think everyone who supports this club wants everyone to improve. As we have seen Jones, Dunn, Watts and T-Mac have all improved greatly over the summer. A word/s used in association a lot with McKenzie is limitations or playing a role. Yes we all want McKenzie to improve but some of us think he will reach a point under Roos /Stone where he is getting the most he will be able to get out of himself, and for some that won't be enough. Then people will say give him time, how much time? The Hawks won last years flag and are a fair chance to go back to back. They didn't get to where they are by sitting idle, they traded in Big Boy, and many think they will make a play for a mid this year or hold out for Dangermouse next year. Teams like the hawks and Geelong always look to improve as it keeps them competitive. You don't draft for a tagger, they are normally mids who were considered to be good prospects and didn't quite cut it end up tagging. Steve suggested playing Jones on Ablett, why not, but I don't want Jones in that role every week. I suggested try Trengove(mids in form slumps often get given run with roles, they get led to the ball) then someone says he's to slow. Well Jordie isn't the quickest either. At the end of the day what you or I think doesn't hold much weight, the coaching staff will decide, we will know soon enough.

. Then people will say give him time, how much time?

This season - lets see if his career moves in an upward trajectory. Lets see if he improves as we become more cohesive. He is not a youngster that needs to develop - he is mature and I see the possibility of him continuing to improve as the midfield cohesion improves.

My knock on Trengove as a tagger as he is not only running slowly but seems to be doing everything slowly. McKenzie is not quick by foot but i witnessed on Saturday quick release of the ball.

If you observed Paul Roo's comments on AFL 360 regarding taggers, then it would be fair to say he is more interested in the taggers ability to restrict their opponents influence on the game and not the number of possessions (cheap) that the opponent gets. Jordie was very effective, in this respect.

This season - lets see if his career moves in an upward trajectory. Lets see if he improves as we become more cohesive. He is not a youngster that needs to develop - he is mature and I see the possibility of him continuing to improve as the midfield cohesion improves.

My knock on Trengove as a tagger as he is not only running slowly but seems to be doing everything slowly. McKenzie is not quick by foot but i witnessed on Saturday quick release of the ball.

out of interest how long left on his contact?

As you know I speak a lot to the players.

I asked Jordie about his discussions with Roosy, basically Jordie was told if all he could do was tag he wouldn't get a game, "it leaves the team a man down", he was told he needed to become a link man, hence the goal assists at the weekend, and to improve his kicking and not be handball happy, only bit he hasn't quite got yet, is he needs to score goals, all the midfielders have been told that

out of interest how long left on his contact?

2015 so next year is the last.

See rpfc's "2014 contracts" thread.

At least on that we can agree.

But you remind me of someone else who always quotes stats to support his view but when they don't he says "I rely on what I see and make my own judgements".

It's a great danger because it's usually wrong.

haha..I know that guy..