Our players are killing our club

[dees189227 12,373]

I reckon everyone boycotts the best and fairest. these players dont deserve our applause. Ok a few do but most of the dont. Why should we pay $200 to sit there and clap players and listen to them say how things will turn around and thanks to the fans u guys are great supporters.

[Hero1 74]

Don't forget we were pretty good in patches - 1987-1994, 2000-2004.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Don't forget we were pretty good in patches - 1987-1994, 2000-2004.

1987 - 1994,, go on, you just joshin me surely...

that hard work done to grow that success period, was put in place by a few good men from 1980 thru to around 1990. that success flowed on from much blood sweat & tears... believe me.

[DemonFrog 1,354]

I reckon everyone boycotts the best and fairest. these players dont deserve our applause. Ok a few do but most of the dont. Why should we pay $200 to sit there and clap players and listen to them say how things will turn around and thanks to the fans u guys are great supporters.

We are the best Supporters LOL

[Hero1 74]

Agreed. Ron Barrassi and Neale Balme.

[Sir Why You Little 36,981]

yep thats where it starts from WYL... its called privilege...

this is where loosely the cart before the horse attitude starts... an over abundance of optimism. and something of a condescending feel about people who have to get their hands dirty to earn. we continually pump up our kids with Pre Adualation... since the time of Smithy finished, or was finished Up.

our players soon lose the hunger of the clubs like North, or the Bombers, Pies, Cats or Hawks... & now the Tigers are on the Up as well.

You tell me WYL, why it is, that all the Victorian clubs who are based away from the 'G', have all become power clubs with strong Dynasties, gone up & back down while we have just managed to tread water??? just.

tell me what it is that makes these clubs so fierce in footy & we are just so gentile?

I am not sure DL, but it makes no sense that the MCC would retard its own club who has 14 games a year on it's ground + finals....That's a lot of potential $$$ right there.

There are Rats in the Ranks i give you that but i very much doubt they are where you have been looking..

Jackson said on his first day he has no issue with being based at the G...He would know all the people in there i have no doubt.

[Guest]

put up an argument CB flaubert... prove what I've said is wrong, instead of getting precious &defensive for No reason.

for the record I think PJ is on the money... but thats got nothing to do with what Neeld was attempting to do... Neeld was doing the dirtiest most difficult job in australian sport, with courage & dignity...

... at least he had the Guts to take it on, & try to do it thoroughly. without shortcuts, like pampering the problem kids to their faces & backstabbing them when they're out of earshot.

.. we still have a major cultural issue of softness thats inherent in the MCC & the Northern stand... its full of idol worshippers & too much kindness to its peril,, for a combative contact sport.

.... cricket is easier its not contact...

we have to stop worshiping Kids before their even sha

ving... for starters.

I will repeat what I said earlier (and you will ignore it yet again):

Your argument is based upon an assertion that Mark Neeld came into this situation clear headed, resolute and considered. I ask you to yet again tell me if he believed that he was in control. Compare his 'not on your life' presser (which by the way is used in AFL media training courses as an example of how not to go about things) to his 'It is what it is' pressers. Was he in control when he couldn't do media commitments post round two and had to rely on Schwab and Craig to do that for him? I was personally concerned for him as a human being after that game and I don't say that sarcastically.

A moment that crystallized this loss of control came for me after the loss against Richmond. Mark was yet again trying to justify another loss and tried to imply the result was acceptable because the boys at least tried. It took Chris Dawes to set him right that effort was a non negotiable and losing can never be acceptable.

2) The second premise your argument rests upon is that Neeld was hired through a perfectly transparent process. That is highly dubious. The selection process was rushed supposedly so the Crows couldn't get Neeld, was run without the assistance of any outside consultants and came up with a candidate whose main selling point seemed to be that he agreed with CS's views on the football team. Ironically enough, the leadership group who had gone to complain about CS and his overbearing influence in the footy department were purged quicker than a Trotskyite in 1930's Russia. A gameplan was introduced that was the polar opposite of the man of whose relationship with CS had been described as poisonous. Doesn't this all seem a bit coincidental? This wasn't some noble attempt to fix the club. It was Schwab's last gasp at keeping his talons in the club.

3) Finally, you said that I had lost my spine. I ask you again, did Peter Jackson, an experienced administrator who could never be accused of being Mr. Congeniality, lose his too? While being as polite as he could at Neeldy's final presser, he was pretty blunt in his reasoning why Mark was sacked. We were described as a drag on the rest of the competition. Our uncompetitiveness was effecting other teams bottom lines.

Please don't make me go into stuff like Riv leaving and Chip potentially leaving. Jackson has also acknowledged this as a reason for MN's dismissal. Or other stunts such as forcing Viney and Grimes to criticize their older teammates in front of the group.

I conclude by asking you to rewind back to Round 2 of this year and the recorded pre match address. Can you seriously tell me those were the words and actions of a bloke in charge of that situation. Forget all the bollocks about it not being before the big rev-up. Just answer me that.

I doubt I will change your attitude as your perception of reality is neatly parcelled up. I just hope others don't take your brand of bedroom philosophy regarding Neeld seriously. It's them I'm worried about.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Guest

[DemonFrog 1,354]

Are we still talking about Mark Neeld!

Just let it go and move on, I have.

[pm24 451]

You argument is frankly ridiculous. A first year player shows it can be done.

Selwood did it at Geelong as well. The pea hearts will always blame someone else. Nate Jones doesn't, Viney doesn't. Travis Boak doesn't. Instead they get out there and do it. Callan Ward does it.

Watts is waiting for someone to show him. Please...

A first year players shows what can be done? I was referring to cultural change. I made no mention of Watts or any other player, so how about actually reading the words of the post, rather than reading into it what you want.

The examples you provide are not relevant to Melbourne because Selwood walked straight into a club with one of the best culture's in the AFL. He did not shape the culture of the club.

Nathan Jones and Viney are good players with great attitudes, but our clubs culture remains weak at best. As for Boak, Port Adelaide was a shambles last year until the CLUB sorted out the mess and provided a better environment for the players, and created a better culture. Or are you suggesting that Port has been successful and a better club since Boak walked in the door in 2007. When Boak arrived in 2007, Port was near it's peak. Since then they missed finals in 08' and 09, before being cellar dwellers from 2010 - 2012. Despite this, Boak didn't walk into a club with a bad culture, he walked into a club with a winning culture which then turned bad or lazy until the club took steps to fix it again.

As for Ward, he's a good player but he's rarely been apart of a winning team, apart from his early years at the bulldogs where they were regular finals contenders . Once again, he walked into a successful club with a good culture.

My point remains, a player cannot change a culture. Rather only when all the players are on board can a culture be changed. And the responsibility for getting all of the players on the board rests with the club, from the Administrators all the way down to the head coach. Then, from there, the players become responsible for maintaining that culture into the future.

So next time you criticise my argument for being "ridiculous" how about you actually read the words first, and use that thing called "comprehension" to understand it before just throwing out some random rubbish statements.

Let me finish with a question? If a player is drafted and has only ever been exposed to the training standards at a TAC Cup or state team level, who does he learn professional standards from once he enters an AFL team? The player can bring with them a great attitude, but the culture and the professional standards are set by the Club not the first year player just starting his AFL career.

[Satyriconhome 10,728]

A first year players shows what can be done? I was referring to cultural change. I made no mention of Watts or any other player, so how about actually reading the words of the post, rather than reading into it what you want.

The examples you provide are not relevant to Melbourne because Selwood walked straight into a club with one of the best culture's in the AFL. He did not shape the culture of the club.

Nathan Jones and Viney are good players with great attitudes, but our clubs culture remains weak at best. As for Boak, Port Adelaide was a shambles last year until the CLUB sorted out the mess and provided a better environment for the players, and created a better culture. Or are you suggesting that Port has been successful and a better club since Boak walked in the door in 2007. When Boak arrived in 2007, Port was near it's peak. Since then they missed finals in 08' and 09, before being cellar dwellers from 2010 - 2012. Despite this, Boak didn't walk into a club with a bad culture, he walked into a club with a winning culture which then turned bad or lazy until the club took steps to fix it again.

As for Ward, he's a good player but he's rarely been apart of a winning team, apart from his early years at the bulldogs where they were regular finals contenders . Once again, he walked into a successful club with a good culture.

My point remains, a player cannot change a culture. Rather only when all the players are on board can a culture be changed. And the responsibility for getting all of the players on the board rests with the club, from the Administrators all the way down to the head coach. Then, from there, the players become responsible for maintaining that culture into the future.

So next time you criticise my argument for being "ridiculous" how about you actually read the words first, and use that thing called "comprehension" to understand it before just throwing out some random rubbish statements.

Let me finish with a question? If a player is drafted and has only ever been exposed to the training standards at a TAC Cup or state team level, who does he learn professional standards from once he enters an AFL team? The player can bring with them a great attitude, but the culture and the professional standards are set by the Club not the first year player just starting his AFL career.

Every club has professional standards, all this culture rubbish continues to astound me

Here is a premise for you, a new coach arrives, the majority of his squad gets through pre season training unscathed, his team for the first round contains 15 players with 70 games or more of experience, the kid they drafted with their first pick is able to settle into an established midfield, the draw the team has pits them against teams who finished in the bottom five the previous season, the team starts the season with five wins and a very close loss, the media suddenly hail the new coach who has created a new winning culture.......the team goes through the season and makes finals but goes out in the elimination final, but coach, team, supporters, sponsors with confidence growing look forward to the new season.......that's how it happens

Edited August 20, 2013 by Satyriconhome

[pm24 451]

Every club has professional standards, all this culture rubbish continues to astound me

If culture was just rubbish, why has Peter Jackson, our new President Bartlett, Neil Craig and others all focused on the need to have a better culture?

If culture was just rubbish, why are clubs like Sydney and Geelong lauded for their success, with credit being given to the culture within the club?

If culture was just rubbish, why is Paul Roos lauded as such a fantastic coach because of the way in which he set up a winning CULTURE at Sydney?

If culture was just rubbish, why is Port's form turnaround often credited to an improvement in standards driven by cultural change?

If culture was just rubbish, why is it's importance constantly referred to across the league????

Every club can have professional standards, but the culture is a big influencer in the achievement of those standards.

Edited August 20, 2013 by pm24

[dee-luded 2,959]

I am not sure DL, but it makes no sense that the MCC would retard its own club who has 14 games a year on it's ground + finals....That's a lot of potential $$$ right there.

There are Rats in the Ranks i give you that but i very much doubt they are where you have been looking..

Jackson said on his first day he has no issue with being based at the G...He would know all the people in there i have no doubt.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

again, you look for blame.

this isn't about blame, right or wrong, its about understanding, whats happened, why, Learning & fixing the problems... I don't think you get it by your response.

the cosy attitudes around the north I think soften our boys & condition them to go easy & be soft... they are not helped to keep the fires burning, the MOJO rising, & the Mongrel in our play.

this does not stem from the southern side. our boards & admins all mix in the north & I think are infected by too much "nice"... this spreads wide & far thru our club, & into our young kids.

[Sir Why You Little 36,981]

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

again, you look for blame.

this isn't about blame, right or wrong, its about understanding, whats happened, why, Learning & fixing the problems... I don't think you get it by your response.

the cosy attitudes around the north I think soften our boys & condition them to go easy & be soft... they are not helped to keep the fires burning, the MOJO rising, & the Mongrel in our play.

this does not stem from the southern side. our boards & admins all mix in the north & I think are infected by too much "nice"... this spreads wide & far thru our club, & into our young kids.

I know where the MCC lives DL

it still makes no sense the MCC would reatrd their own club on home turf.

The rats are elsewhere.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,187]

I know where the MCC lives DL

it still makes no sense the MCC would reatrd their own club on home turf.

The rats are elsewhere.

It's not done consciously.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I will repeat what I said earlier (and you will ignore it yet again):

Your argument is based upon an assertion that Mark Neeld came into this situation clear headed, resolute and considered. I ask you to yet again tell me if he believed that he was in control. Compare his 'not on your life' presser (which by the way is used in AFL media training courses as an example of how not to go about things) to his 'It is what it is' pressers. Was he in control when he couldn't do media commitments post round two and had to rely on Schwab and Craig to do that for him? I was personally concerned for him as a human being after hat game and I don't say that sarcastically.

A moment that crystallized this loss of control came for me after the loss against Richmond. Mark was yet again trying to justify another loss and tried to imply the result was acceptable because the boys at least tried. It took Chris Dawes to set him right that effort was a non negotiable and losing can never be acceptable.

2) The second premise your argument rests upon is that Neeld was hired through a perfectly transparent process. That is highly dubious. The selection process was rushed supposedly so the Crows couldn't get Neeld, was run without the assistance of any outside consultants and came up with a candidate whose main selling point seemed to be that he agreed with CS's views on the football team. Ironically enough, the leadership group who had gone to complain about CS and his overbearing influence in the footy department were purged quicker than a Trotskyite in 1930's Russia. A gameplan was introduced that was the polar opposite of the man of whose relationship with CS had been described as poisonous. Doesn't this all seem a bit coincidental? This wasn't some noble attempt to fix the club. It was Schwab's last gasp at keeping his talons in the club.

3) Finally, you said that I had lost my spine. I ask you again, did Peter Jackson, an experienced administrator who could never be accused of being Mr. Congeniality, lose his too? While being as polite as he could at Neeldy's final presser, he was pretty blunt in his reasoning why Mark was sacked. We were described as a drag on the rest of the competition. Our uncompetitiveness was effecting other teams bottom lines.

Please don't make me go into stuff like Riv leaving and Chip potentially leaving. Jackson has also acknowledged this as a reason for MN's dismissal. Or other stunts such as forcing Viney and Grimes to criticize their older teammates in front of the group.

I conclude by asking you to rewind back to Round 2 of this year and the recorded pre match address. Can you seriously tell me those were the words and actions of a bloke in charge of that situation. Forget all the bollocks about it not being before the big rev-up. Just answer me that.

I doubt I will change your attitude as your perception of reality is neatly parcelled up. I just hope others don't take your brand of bedroom philosophy regarding Neeld seriously. It's them I'm worried about.

that so called 'pre match address' that seemed so understated, was I believe over an hour before the game, before the players even went out to warm up... I wondered also at that time, thinking it was very flat... but when I realised it was a discussion prior to warmup, then it sits more realistically.

..... the firing up talk for match start would have been off camera later.

*the drag on the competition is from low memberships & attendances, revenue issues... caused from the poor form, which I believe followed on from key injuries, & of course, confusion over the direction of the club as a whole, of the previous 5 years... 'what does our future hold'?

the plans that were originally set down to rebuild the list were poorly made, & IMO arz about.

I would have analyzed the cultural weaknesses then & set about that first, via trades, as the Hawks did in their rebuild.

True leaders I would have been kept, & flash front runners would have been sold off, much to the displeasure of many supporters who would Not have understood. it would have meant 2 or 3 years in the lower part of the ladder.

The new kids would have been kept in the reserves for quite a bit of maturing time,,, whilst the senior team culture was stripped & refashioned.

it matters little about the original planners of the failed blueprint, as they are gone.

but the timing of the appointment of Neeld to carry out this plan off the back of the failed previous plan was doomed, because of the exhausted faith & patience of the Mfc supporters.

... anxt replaced belief, with supporters & players.. a coach killer of a change.

The plan to pull apart the weak culture needed to be done in 2007 onwards, if not before that.

But I think the problems were not recognised, nor truly understood. I thought the old boys would have learnt when they'd been to other clubs for so long, to realise the failings of the Mfc they grew up with, because I was aware of the failings myself.... "If I understand it, then surely they would as well."

I think they proved they didn't...

the culture is still the Main Issue with the Mfc, not just team,,, but the whole organisation... all of us.

[Sir Why You Little 36,981]

that so called 'pre match address' that seemed so understated, was I believe over an hour before the game, before the players even went out to warm up... I wondered also at that time, thinking it was very flat... but when I realised it was a discussion prior to warmup, then it sits more realistically.

..... the firing up talk for match start would have been off camera later.

*the drag on the competition is from low memberships & attendances, revenue issues... caused from the poor form, which I believe followed on from key injuries, & of course, confusion over the direction of the club as a whole, of the previous 5 years... 'what does our future hold'?

the plans that were originally set down to rebuild the list were poorly made, & IMO arz about.

I would have analyzed the cultural weaknesses then & set about that first, via trades, as the Hawks did in their rebuild.

True leaders I would have been kept, & flash front runners would have been sold off, much to the displeasure of many supporters who would Not have understood. it would have meant 2 or 3 years in the lower part of the ladder.

The new kids would have been kept in the reserves for quite a bit of maturing time,,, whilst the senior team culture was stripped & refashioned.

it matters little about the original planners of the failed blueprint, as they are gone.

but the timing of the appointment of Neeld to carry out this plan off the back of the failed previous plan was doomed, because of the exhausted faith & patience of the Mfc supporters.

... anxt replaced belief, with supporters & players.. a coach killer of a change.

The plan to pull apart the weak culture needed to be done in 2007 onwards, if not before that.

But I think the problems were not recognised, nor truly understood. I thought the old boys would have learnt when they'd been to other clubs for so long, to realise the failings of the Mfc they grew up with, because I was aware of the failings myself.... "If I understand it, then surely they would as well."

I think they proved they didn't...

the culture is still the Main Issue with the Mfc, not just team,,, but the whole organisation... all of us.

FCS Neeld was the wrong choice as coach.

The End.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I know where the MCC lives DL

it still makes no sense the MCC would reatrd their own club on home turf.

The rats are elsewhere.

no ones trying to retard anyone WYL... although I think there was some payback back in the mid 80's.

the issue isn't about vindictiveness causing our failures.. its about naivety & spoiling our kids thats damaging... the damage being done is happening unawares of most people doing it...

this I think is why people are so insulted & defensive by this suggestion, because its not in there conscious thoughts... their trying to be helpful... killing with kindness in a fashion.

[PJ_12345 1,098]

no ones trying to retard anyone WYL... although I think there was some payback back in the mid 80's.

the issue isn't about vindictiveness causing our failures.. its about naivety & spoiling our kids thats damaging... the damage being done is happening unawares of most people doing it...

this I think is why people are so insulted & defensive by this suggestion, because its not in there conscious thoughts... their trying to be helpful... killing with kindness in a fashion.

Unless you're Ronald Reagan, when it comes to talking from other perspectives to WYL you're only bashing your head against a wall...

Edited August 20, 2013 by PJ_12345

[Sir Why You Little 36,981]

no ones trying to retard anyone WYL... although I think there was some payback back in the mid 80's.

the issue isn't about vindictiveness causing our failures.. its about naivety & spoiling our kids thats damaging... the damage being done is happening unawares of most people doing it...

this I think is why people are so insulted & defensive by this suggestion, because its not in there conscious thoughts... their trying to be helpful... killing with kindness in a fashion.

No DL i think all the aforementioned are happening inside your head.

You just hate the MCC.

Our problems have arisen because sadly Jimmy employed his mates into positions of power.

If what PJ reports is correct Schwab had no idea what he was doing or creating.

Being tossed out in the 80's was a huge mistake.

The MFC/MCC must get stronger.

[Guest]

that so called 'pre match address' that seemed so understated, was I believe over an hour before the game, before the players even went out to warm up... I wondered also at that time, thinking it was very flat... but when I realised it was a discussion prior to warmup, then it sits more realistically.

..... the firing up talk for match start would have been off camera later.

*the drag on the competition is from low memberships & attendances, revenue issues... caused from the poor form, which I believe followed on from key injuries, & of course, confusion over the direction of the club as a whole, of the previous 5 years... 'what does our future hold'?

the plans that were originally set down to rebuild the list were poorly made, & IMO arz about.

I would have analyzed the cultural weaknesses then & set about that first, via trades, as the Hawks did in their rebuild.

True leaders I would have been kept, & flash front runners would have been sold off, much to the displeasure of many supporters who would Not have understood. it would have meant 2 or 3 years in the lower part of the ladder.

The new kids would have been kept in the reserves for quite a bit of maturing time,,, whilst the senior team culture was stripped & refashioned.

it matters little about the original planners of the failed blueprint, as they are gone.

but the timing of the appointment of Neeld to carry out this plan off the back of the failed previous plan was doomed, because of the exhausted faith & patience of the Mfc supporters.

... anxt replaced belief, with supporters & players.. a coach killer of a change.

The plan to pull apart the weak culture needed to be done in 2007 onwards, if not before that.

But I think the problems were not recognised, nor truly understood. I thought the old boys would have learnt when they'd been to other clubs for so long, to realise the failings of the Mfc they grew up with, because I was aware of the failings myself.... "If I understand it, then surely they would as well."

I think they proved they didn't...

the culture is still the Main Issue with the Mfc, not just team,,, but the whole organisation... all of us.

1) As I thought, I got the 'It was an hour before.' Regardless of the tone, Jack Watts and others weren't even looking at him. Neeldy sounded like he was at times on the verge of cracking up. And everyone left the room in bloody silence. They didn't have to be jumping out of their skin but a little enthusiasm wouldn't have hurt. They walked out of there like scalded schoolboys.

2) Re: Drag on the competition. You are putting words into PJ's mouth to support your own argument. He was asked a specific question as to why Mark Neeld was fired. He was incredibly specific as to why it was happening. There was no equivocation.

3) You still haven't addressed how shonky the process was or the fact that MN was most likely a political appointment.

4) You haven't addressed the overwhelming amount of evidence that Mark Neeld went from a big talking spruiker to a man who was telling us we were outmuscled by the Gold Coast Suns.

I like you dee-luded and I mean that. But this stuff about how Mark Neeld was in full control of the situation and we all just lost faith is preposterous. The guy was in way over his head and for his sake, let alone the club's, the appointment needed to end. I blame the people who appointed him for this as well as they pretty much set him up for failure. They gave him a job he was patently unqualified to carry out. Master coaches would have needed time to get their heads around the myriad issues confronting the place, let alone a novice.

In regards to this, speaking to you about Mark Neeld is akin to bashing one's head against a brick wall. Some might look at the Neeld situation and see a glass nearly empty. Some might look at it and see a glass with some water in it. You look at the MN era and see a unicorn.

[[email protected] 101]

Our players have lovely tans....do you think they spray it on? Or solarium?

It maybe from all the shyte disgruntled supporters are "throwing" at them... Just saying... (mostly deserved of course)

[Sir Why You Little 36,981]

The only person who looked excited during that pre match address in Round 2 was Schwab.

A coach in full control would have refused to do it.

There was no anticipation in the air. Just dread.

[[email protected] 101]

In the midst of the debate about Neeld, I wrote that our players are coach killers. You might be closer to the mark. Unless something is done to change the list/culture/expectations, the club could well find itself relegated to Tasmania or merged with the Roos or Bulldogs. We need to take to this list with a big knife and cut out the fat.

Relegated to Tasmania ?? Lovely State .. Hasn't done Hawthorn and recently Kangas any harm.. lol

[mjt 640]

The only person who looked excited during that pre match address in Round 2 was Schwab.

A coach in full control would have refused to do it.

There was no anticipation in the air. Just dread.

Let it go, Schwab destroyed Melbournre, certain posters including myself shouted it from the roof tops long before it happened, Schwabs been flushed down our toilet of history where he belongs.

[Sir Why You Little 36,981]

Let it go, Schwab destroyed Melbournre, certain posters including myself shouted it from the roof tops long before it happened, Schwabs been flushed down our toilet of history where he belongs.

i put it here for DL who believes Neeld was in full control...he certainly wasn't.