On 30/01/2015 at 04:32, Wrecker45 said:

And I've pointed out why I refuse to buy into the context issues around the cuts to the ABC. If Abbott lies I will call it out for what it is. I guess that's where our differences lie. I'll happily call a spade a spade without watering it down, calling a beat-up or making excuses.

Yes, I do see shades of grey in most things. Not everything is black and white. Not all of Abbott's lies are equally bad.

In terms of scale and impact, Gillard's "no carbon tax" pledge was a [censored] in the wind.

You are however welcome to believe all lies are as bad each other.

  On 30/01/2015 at 05:00, P-man said:

Yes, I do see shades of grey in most things. Not everything is black and white. Not all of Abbott's lies are equally bad.

In terms of scale and impact, Gillard's "no carbon tax" pledge was a [censored] in the wind.

You are however welcome to believe all lies are as bad each other.

You just keep proving my point.

  On 30/01/2015 at 05:46, Wrecker45 said:

You just keep proving my point.

What, that I believe only Abbott's lies are bad? I've rejected that outright.

How can I make it any clearer to you? I assess every broken promise on its merits. I don't care who says them. Doing a blanket sweep and paying no attention to circumstance is stupid and ignorant.

But even if for argument's sake we accept all are equally corrupt, Gillard broke one pledge. Abbot has broken at least a dozen. At least.

But you continue to only acknowledge cuts to the ABC.

  On 30/01/2015 at 06:05, P-man said:

What, that I believe only Abbott's lies are bad? I've rejected that outright.

How can I make it any clearer to you? I assess every broken promise on its merits. I don't care who says them. Doing a blanket sweep and paying no attention to circumstance is stupid and ignorant.

But even if for argument's sake we accept all are equally corrupt, Gillard broke one pledge. Abbot has broken at least a dozen. At least.

But you continue to only acknowledge cuts to the ABC.

Gillard really broke only one pledge? Do you need me to list examples of the others like I did for her policy failures? Are you really that naïve or wilfully blind?

A lie is a lie and should not be tolerated regardless of its merits. If you are honest with yourself you should put Abbott's lies in the same basket as Gillard's and stop sugar coating the ones made by Gillard. Your merits are in line with your political prejudices.

  On 30/01/2015 at 06:15, Wrecker45 said:

Gillard really broke only one pledge? Do you need me to list examples of the others like I did for her policy failures? Are you really that naïve or wilfully blind?

A lie is a lie and should not be tolerated regardless of its merits. If you are honest with yourself you should put Abbott's lies in the same basket as Gillard's and stop sugar coating the ones made by Gillard. Your merits are in line with your political prejudices.

By all means, list the ones you see as broken promises. That is, saying you'll take one action and then doing the opposite. Let's compare your Gillard list with Abbott's, who is just half way through his first term.

You've failed to address ANY of the ones I've listed. Not a single one. I have no idea if you agree they're all lies to be condemned because you won't talk about them.

You won't talk about the carbon tax because you probably know nothing of it except that Gillard said she wouldn't introduce one.

You then take the absurd position that Abbott is to be praised for delivering on his "core promises".

Just because you tack a three word slogan onto something so fools can easily digest it doesn't make it any more important than saying you won't slash the health budget, funding to schools, or introduce new taxes. Those are pretty big deals. Much bigger than saying you'll scrap a mining tax.

I think it's plainly evident which one of us has the bigger political prejudice. I've voted for the Coaliton before. Have you ever voted Labor? Let me take a wild stab and guess, no.

Ffs, you actually want to let these clowns stick around for "consecutive adult governments".

ADULT governments.

Honestly. Jesus wept.

By all means, list the ones you see as broken promises. That is, saying you'll take one action and then doing the opposite. Let's compare your Gillard list with Abbott's, who is just half way through his first term.

You said that Gillard has broken only 1 pledge and I ridiculed that. Again I ask would you like me to list some of her broken promises and when I do will you admit that you were biased or at least correct your statement?

You've failed to address ANY of the ones I've listed. Not a single one. I have no idea if you agree they're all lies to be condemned because you won't talk about them.

I cannot make it any clearer for a 3^rd time. I agree with you and am not arguing. I'm not addressing any of the ones you have listed because I have agreed Abbott has lied. I'll take your word for it on the list. Take them all as lies.

Trying to compare Abbott’s lies with Gillard’s (over and over and missing my point) is just demonstrating your cheerleading. I’ll give you an example that is easy for you. That is both Abbott lies because you don’t notice any of Gillard\s.

Abbott said he would repeal 18c of the Discrimination Act and had reneged on his promise. Abbott has also said that he would not cut funding to the ABC and since cut the funding.

Both lies. There are not degrees of lies. Just because left wing nuts wanted 18c kept as is and ABC funding maintained or increased doesn’t change the fact Abbott lied equally on both.

You won't talk about the carbon tax because you probably know nothing of it except that Gillard said she wouldn't introduce one.

I would love nothing more than to talk about the carbon tax (and the validity of climate change). Have a look at the thread in general discussions about climate change at the moment. Perhaps you can answer the question I have been asking for 2 pages that all the alarmists are dodging.

You then take the absurd position that Abbott is to be praised for delivering on his "core promises".

What were the core promises that Gillard promised before the election and then delivered? Abbott was very clear and repetitive on those promises. He has delivered.

Just because you tack a three word slogan onto something so fools can easily digest it doesn't make it any more important than saying you won't slash the health budget, funding to schools, or introduce new taxes. Those are pretty big deals. Much bigger than saying you'll scrap a mining tax.

No. Again you put more importance on your values and political prejudices than transparent governance. Whilst I don’t doubt the purity of your values the practice is bordering on Totalitarian.

I think it's plainly evident which one of us has the bigger political prejudice. I've voted for the Coaliton before. Have you ever voted Labor? Let me take a wild stab and guess, no.

I haven’t voted Labor federally because they haven’t been worthy in my lifetime (I missed Keating and Hawke). For what it is worth I have voted Labor in State elections.

Ffs, you actually want to let these clowns stick around for "consecutive adult governments".

At the moment but that is only because Shorten hasn’t given me an alternative to vote for. I hope he does.

Kudos for the increased detail in that response.

Yes I really would like to see what you deem to be broken promises by Gillard. Not policy failures. Lies. If you can come up with a list that even remotely compares with Abbott, I'll tip my hat to you. It will take some creative thinking. You've got "no carbon tax under a government I lead". That's one.

How does a mining tax affect Joe Bloggs living in Western Sydney with two kids and a mortgage? Compared with a $7 increase for every visit to the GP over 10 minutes?

For that matter, how does removing a carbon tax affect Joe? Not what Abbott said was the effect. The ACTUAL effect. How much has Joe's electricity bill gone down in the past few months?

How does "stopping the boats" impact Joe? If there is so much fear and concern about the flooding of our borders, the number of asylum seekers arriving by plane is 32 times that arriving by boat. When was the last time that rated a mention in one of Morrison's farcical press conferences?

Abbott's reforms to health, education and basic way of living have real detrimental impact on the lower to middle class, and they are totally unnecessary. I can't be apathetic towards that.

Shorten isn't the most inspiring of individuals, but he won't need to be if things continue as they are.

  On 30/01/2015 at 16:18, P-man said:

Kudos for the increased detail in that response.

Yes I really would like to see what you deem to be broken promises by Gillard. Not policy failures. Lies. If you can come up with a list that even remotely compares with Abbott, I'll tip my hat to you. It will take some creative thinking. You've got "no carbon tax under a government I lead". That's one.

How does a mining tax affect Joe Bloggs living in Western Sydney with two kids and a mortgage? Compared with a $7 increase for every visit to the GP over 10 minutes?

For that matter, how does removing a carbon tax affect Joe? Not what Abbott said was the effect. The ACTUAL effect. How much has Joe's electricity bill gone down in the past few months?

How does "stopping the boats" impact Joe? If there is so much fear and concern about the flooding of our borders, the number of asylum seekers arriving by plane is 32 times that arriving by boat. When was the last time that rated a mention in one of Morrison's farcical press conferences?

Abbott's reforms to health, education and basic way of living have real detrimental impact on the lower to middle class, and they are totally unnecessary. I can't be apathetic towards that.

Shorten isn't the most inspiring of individuals, but he won't need to be if things continue as they are.

I've received notice of increases in my discounted electricity billing arrangements of the last 18 months... not going down, going UP.

Not hard to see why the guy won a Walkley - http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/the-pms-woes-started-earlier-than-you-think-20150129-130mcx.html

  On 31/01/2015 at 07:49, P-man said:

Not hard to see why the guy won a Walkley - http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/the-pms-woes-started-earlier-than-you-think-20150129-130mcx.html

We can discuss Tony's future all we like but his future is in the hands of the Emperor, the most serene and divine Rupert! It is he who will decide the fate of the mad monk, no one else.

Given the temperature in the Australian and the Hun and his tweet on the disposition of knighthoods...... I reckon Murdoch is weaving his magic.......

  On 31/01/2015 at 09:21, Earl Hood said:

We can discuss Tony's future all we like but his future is in the hands of the Emperor, the most serene and divine Rupert! It is he who will decide the fate of the mad monk, no one else.

ahh, the puppeteer of the free world

just be careful who you speak of, over the phone

u.n.c.l.e. tony, well his usefulness has eroded to less than something. the emperor won't be happy

the t/a days are numbered thinly

  On 31/01/2015 at 09:42, Qwerty30 said:

Given the temperature in the Australian and the Hun and his tweet on the disposition of knighthoods...... I reckon Murdoch is weaving his magic.......

yes, but he's getting old, wretched & forgetful

& rabbot is just neucrotic from baited carrot...... better turn_to_bull to step up the optics of this government, & add fibre to the Emperors Dastardly Plans to rule the world of Media

he won't forget when its our time to pay Our media bills, just like the 'Electricity bills', which were supposedly coming back down.

In cohoots, turn_bull & his media master. the Emperor

daft turn_bull will make us all pay for our TV, thru the nose. as it were

Looks like Campbell is gawn in Qld. Good riddance I say. And there could still be a boil over in the election. That would not help Tony by the way. The Emperor would be most displeased.

Maybe Tony should stay on as PM Earl ?

Obviously winning in a landslide no longer guarantees you more than one term. Tony's opinion polls are looking terrible.

If the LNP sticks to this mantra that they're 'making the hard decisions', and it's just the 'message' that they're not getting across, they're gone.

In the minds of voters, it's their unfair, ideological, hit-the-poor policies that suck. Listen more to Grong Grong and get out of the offices of the BCA and IPA.

  On 31/01/2015 at 12:20, Crompton said:

Maybe Tony should stay on as PM Earl ?

yes, we should back off ol' uncle tony, he's our best ally.

lets start to keep a close eye on that toe cutter, 'Joe', & that other monarchist, 'Bishop'?

where is that faceless man behind the liberal push, 'eyebrows', the head with no face ?

  On 31/01/2015 at 13:33, mauriesy said:

Obviously winning in a landslide no longer guarantees you more than one term. Tony's opinion polls are looking terrible.

If the LNP sticks to this mantra that they're 'making the hard decisions', and it's just the 'message' that they're not getting across, they're gone.

In the minds of voters, it's their unfair, ideological, hit-the-poor policies that suck. Listen more to Grong Grong and get out of the offices of the BCA and IPA.

the people are getting sick of the credit cycle ramifications of the past 15 years. prior to 87'ish, the credit cycle was handy & friendly mostly. but since, the bean counters & the CEO's of multie nation alls; take their ball home, or to whichever country they choose at the time, bludgeoning the workers at their whims.

& now those big companies are bludgeoning whole nations over where they, or whether, they will pay their tax dollars, or Not.

the people seem sick of offshoring jobs, & offshoring taxes, & offshoring business, & of our former lifestyle offshored.... we have become fodder for the Machine.

I find it interesting that

- we can argue the merits of the major parties policies and governing abilities and critique it - this has a bearing on the opinion polls

- we as voters don't like infighting, disloyalty and detabilisation - this has a bearing on opinions polls.

But what effects the polls the most ? When a politician is a 1st class goose his appeal slides down quicker than Kim Kardashian's underwear.

I deplored the debacle between Rudd and Gillard - would I describe either of them as unintelligent ? no.

I did not like much of what John Howard stood for but view him as the consummate politician - rarely put a foot wrong on how he presented.

But this Abbott make me cringe - did you catch this line - " one of the reasons why so many members of the team are able to perform so well is because they've got a very good captain." - Who the hell says that about themselves ??? Seriously......

  On 01/02/2015 at 23:39, nutbean said:

I find it interesting that

- we can argue the merits of the major parties policies and governing abilities and critique it - this has a bearing on the opinion polls

- we as voters don't like infighting, disloyalty and detabilisation - this has a bearing on opinions polls.

But what effects the polls the most ? When a politician is a 1st class goose his appeal slides down quicker than Kim Kardashian's underwear.

I deplored the debacle between Rudd and Gillard - would I describe either of them as unintelligent ? no.

I did not like much of what John Howard stood for but view him as the consummate politician - rarely put a foot wrong on how he presented.

But this Abbott make me cringe - did you catch this line - " one of the reasons why so many members of the team are able to perform so well is because they've got a very good captain." - Who the hell says that about themselves ??? Seriously......

settle down nut. the die is cast.

like the golden boy it is just a question of time for walks-like-putin tony.

if it is any consolation the current stink and disaffection with politics and politicians across the board is a common theme across western democracies

i'm hearing the exact same stuff from uk and us friends

would you believe there is a movement in the uk for compulsory voting, to avoid nutcase minorities from hijacking the political process through electoral apathy

  On 30/01/2015 at 16:18, P-man said:

Kudos for the increased detail in that response.

Yes I really would like to see what you deem to be broken promises by Gillard. Not policy failures. Lies. If you can come up with a list that even remotely compares with Abbott, I'll tip my hat to you. It will take some creative thinking. You've got "no carbon tax under a government I lead". That's one.

Gillard promised a surplus (And today I can assure every Australian that their Budget will be back in surplus in 2013)

Gillard promised to cut company tax and after the election scrapped the cut

Gillard promised $2.1 billion for a transport link in Western Sydney. Not built.

Gillard’s promise to Wilkie on Pokie reforms. He ended up withdrawing support for the Government over it

Cash for Clunkers (Old car owners will score a $2000 rebate if they buy a new fuel-efficient vehicle, under a “cash for clunkers” scheme)

Gillard promised an automatic tax deduction of $1,000

Gillard promised to build mor GP super clinics (she delivered on 1 of 28)

The Royal Commission into union corruption found Gillard had told “untruths”

  On 02/02/2015 at 00:43, daisycutter said:

settle down nut. the die is cast.

like the golden boy it is just a question of time for walks-like-putin tony.

if it is any consolation the current stink and disaffection with politics and politicians across the board is a common theme across western democracies

i'm hearing the exact same stuff from uk and us friends

would you believe there is a movement in the uk for compulsory voting, to avoid nutcase minorities from hijacking the political process through electoral apathy

I am completely disillusioned with all sides of politics and the standard of politicians in general. I expect Clive Palmer to have me scratching my head, I expect to be gobsmacked by some of Bob Katters mutterings but irrespective of feelings on policy I expect my PM to have a modicum of political nous ( the nous that got him/her the top job in the first place).

I said before I did not respect John Howard's policies but respected him as a politician.

As insulting as this is, Tony Abbott is our version of George W Bush.

(One of my mates said yesterday " I say and do dumb [censored] all the time, I don't expect my Prime Minister to follow suite".)

  On 02/02/2015 at 05:02, nutbean said:

I am completely disillusioned with all sides of politics and the standard of politicians in general. I expect Clive Palmer to have me scratching my head, I expect to be gobsmacked by some of Bob Katters mutterings but irrespective of feelings on policy I expect my PM to have a modicum of political nous ( the nous that got him/her the top job in the first place).

I said before I did not respect John Howard's policies but respected him as a politician.

As insulting as this is, Tony Abbott is our version of George W Bush.

(One of my mates said yesterday " I say and do dumb [censored] all the time, I don't expect my Prime Minister to follow suite".)

talk is there might be another bush running for prez in good old us

now there is something to bring back the nightmares

  On 02/02/2015 at 06:34, daisycutter said:

talk is there might be another bush running for prez in good old us

now there is something to bring back the nightmares

As long as there are no more Obama's in the pipeline we can sleep well.

  On 02/02/2015 at 04:15, Wrecker45 said:

Gillard promised a surplus (And today I can assure every Australian that their Budget will be back in surplus in 2013)

Gillard promised to cut company tax and after the election scrapped the cut

Gillard promised $2.1 billion for a transport link in Western Sydney. Not built.

Gillards promise to Wilkie on Pokie reforms. He ended up withdrawing support for the Government over it

Cash for Clunkers (Old car owners will score a $2000 rebate if they buy a new fuel-efficient vehicle, under a cash for clunkers scheme)

Gillard promised an automatic tax deduction of $1,000

Gillard promised to build mor GP super clinics (she delivered on 1 of 28)

The Royal Commission into union corruption found Gillard had told untruths

Some of those are valid. I didn't include delivering a surplus after their first year cause that's just a lofty objective and all incoming governments make them. Few deliver.

Again, I don't deem policy failures to be broken promises. Broken promises are saying you will take an ACTION and doing the OPPOSITE of that ACTION.

I don't wish to split hairs and I'm not saying Gillard is squeaky clean. Of course she isn't. Nor is Rudd. Nor is Howard. I think her downfall was attaching so much to the mining tax.

But I do still think that's a lightweight list compared to Abbott's record of deceit that he's achieved in a mere 18 months.