Ok so firstly, good on Robbo for flying the flag for the club. At times like these someone has to bite back, even if it does seem a little contrite.

I still have a soft spot for Beamer, but I saw his departure as someone who couldn't handle the changes and didn't like the idea of a new coach coming in and not saying he was a gun despite his B&F.

Neeld said from the start it was clean slates for everyone, the past was the past both good and bad. Perhaps Neeld could've handled it better, but personally it sounded like Moloney didn't like the challenge of earning his leadership again. Because of that he sulked a bit and immediately put them at odds.

I've said this before, I don't disagree with 90% of the departures including Moloney. I'm just concerned the ones that have stuck around and apparently "bought in" aren't showing improvement.

Has it occured to you Pates that we are seeing their maximium ability.

IMO what you see is what we have.

The majority of our problems IMO stem from a poor list.

From our 40+ players we have approx. 12 that are good AFL standard, we have 6-7 kids who are in a development stage.

The rest are good VFL players.

End of story

The spoke truthfully, there is no hope in it, they are not happy with it either and they are single minded in their approach to fix the problems, but it ain't gonna happen overnight, it is not about win or loss, it is about building something lasting, when it is built PROPERLY..it will show in the wins and losses........this is the frustrating part for me, this is what the supporters have been asking for, a complete change................ but it doesn't happen overnight, Neeld in reality has only had this season with anything near the playing list he wants, and after speaking to him last night, it's still not quite there

Yes it is about Winning or Losing...everything else spoken leads to one or the other....with continual thumpings each week the current staff will not keep their jobs.

No matter how well they speak.

You still haven't given me your crowd estimation for QB 2013 yet Satyriconhome....

I have always rated both Neeld and Craig as I have spoken to both of them on a number of occasions.

One of the points both made last night was they were originally given a mandate by the Club (assume this was Board and CEO) and this mandate has not changed, and they are sticking to that mandate. Neeld stressed strongly ie he repeated he was told "culture, culture, culture" and this is what they are attempting to implement, neither are overjoyed where we are at the moment they both regard themselves because of the inexperience of the list as 'development coaches', a point Nathan Jones agreed with.

My lovely lady has become increasingly frustrated watching the games and the players 'supposedly' giving up, so she made a point of asking Mark Neeld directly after the talk for his take on why this is happening, he made the point that no matter how the players are coached, if they go into their 'shell' in a game, he only has the breaks to try and rectify, and after the first quarter against Fremantle there wasn't much he could do, so he and Craig used half time to try and show the players that if they went back to the structures and game plan they had started the game with it would work and the players responded and we won the 3rd quarter....it is 'convincing' (his word not mine coz I can't remember exactly what he said) to stick fast with the structures

He made a point of telling me he was disappointed with Mark Jamar against Fremantle and he had told him so, he expected a guy of his experience to lead the team from the funk they get in and not just get 1 possession in a game against two young ruckmen.

He also made a point that if the ladder was based on pure football 'talent' it would be GWS 1st and Gold Coast 2nd, but because of GWS' inexperience it isn't, and we are the second most inexperienced so this is what you get

Thanks for the info 'Sat' it is appreciated but my follow up question on this would be why did he go away from the structures and put so many players behind the ball, the players surely didn't do this themselves. I would think he needs to stick fast with the structures too, this is one of the things that really frustrated me with the game last Sunday.

Thanks for the info 'Sat' it is appreciated but my follow up question on this would be why did he go away from the structures and put so many players behind the ball, the players surely didn't do this themselves. I would think he needs to stick fast with the structures too, this is one of the things that really frustrated me with the game last Sunday.

Agree completely. At least give us the chance to put some scoreboard pressure on. It's so frustrating when we have a good 4-6 minutes of play, yet only jag 1 goal, or keep breaking down in the forward third due to no options.

as i will be lambasted for this, Im actually a supporter of Neeld. one massive mistake he made though and ive said this a few times is why why why did he appoint Grimes/Trengove as captains when he and everyone else know we would be in the furnace for the next 2-3yrs(now possibly longer). Im not saying those guys arent good leaders or will be but I agree, why wasnt Moloney or Nathan Jones made captain upfront and Grimes or Trengove couldve played a dual role with them. question??? Would Moloney stayed hadve Jones been made skipper?

Jones hadn't stepped up to the point he is at now,,, & the players voted Trenners & grimes as best leaders at the time. Jones has since been elevated in his standings IMO.

I don't think Trenners issues are from the captaincy at All... imo he has physical issues/injuries, from the extra workloads on his young frame.

Grimes having been in the system longer than Trenners, has learnt to grow & overcome his own initial physical injuries of some years ago, & now only is only suffering from impact type injuries.

# Neeld although in the furnace, has only eyes on the ball Re the development of the players... hence Grimes/Trenners captaincy, & making the kids Earn they're place in the team...

Robinson would really know about dropping his head, a cheap shot at a B&F winner, if this is his new role at the MFC he should go back to singing for his supper.

... I take it as read that you seem to be in opposition to the stance the insider robbo has on the situations that have taken place?

... it doesn't suit the fantasies of some, to hear their ideas may be very Wrong... truth often hurts, but men accept it & work with it.... others please themselves. these are the ones who undermine the club, & its improvement.

eating it out of house & home.

I was also at the meeting last night and had prior to the meeting come to the conclusion that Neeld should go in the shorter term. I now after listening to both Neeld and Craig believe that he should at least be given to the end of the season.

Both spoke honestly and both openly passionate about the Club and where it is and where it is going.

Nate is well grounded and definitely a "leader" but I don't believe he is Captain material and I am not sure he would want it anyway.

With regard to the appointing of the two Jacks, there were two rounds of surveying of players choice of captain, the second being after the Darwin expedition. Again the two Jacks could not be separated and were well in front of the next couple but also after Darwin there were six players who definitely stood above the rest. How could they not appoint them after going through that lengthy process otherwise why bother. FD Just appoint who they like. What would the players have felt then. Also how could they have known what crap would be thrown up over the last season and half. All very well to have hindsight.

As to how the players are dealing with the year, Nate did say that the players were absolutely blown away when the supporters all came down to training that Thursday morning. He said that that support meant so much to the players (I took from that that are devastated when they get booed).

Another comment that Nate made about how the team has played was that being such a young side in terms of games played, was about momentum change within a game. As an older player he could feel momentum change but the younger players don't sense that because they are concentrating on their own games and it was difficult during a game to get that message across. He said they have to be better at getting that through to the other players.

Last night was a fantastic step for the Club to take and I commend them for taking the initiative. I believe the Club has plans to take their message to the supporters more in the future.

We, like the players have to stop listening to the "noise" coming from the media. They are in a feeding frenzy when it comes to Melbourne. They are whipping up a perfect storm if we let them.

I've been like you hot and cold on the stay or go line and don't really see the point of a caretaker coach however I have never been happy with how the club has been run and think Jackson is a real plus for the club. I would still like to see changes at the top.

I get the culture thing that 'Sat' was talking about earlier but I think they may have pushed this to far in the short term, players and supporters still need some wins to keep the faith and I find the adherence to a defensive mindset is hurting the team. Let's hope a few wins are just around the corner

...for all the media bleating I can't see Jackson pushing Neeld out until he has the FD the way he wants it and then he will want to see how he performs in that environment, see if he is up to the job. A couple of massive loses will make things hard though.

The reality is that processes and procedures generally only get scrutinised when outcomes are poor. Our processes may have been robust and transparent but due to poor outcomes on the field they get called into question.

I'm not questioning the processes because culture change in any organisation is extremely difficult to manage successfully and there will always be bruised egos and tension along the way. I think Neeld (and the board) underestimated the enormity of the task and made mistakes along the way, and in hindsight, it was a tall order for a rookie head coach.

Yes it is about Winning or Losing...everything else spoken leads to one or the other....with continual thumpings each week the current staff will not keep their jobs.

No matter how well they speak.

You still haven't given me your crowd estimation for QB 2013 yet Satyriconhome....

Told you about reading my posts, I think you will find I did, about 50-60000, a bit of clariication,

what I want to see and I think the FD is working towards is WWWWLWWW,

not

WLLLLLLLL.....

although we may see that until they get the mix right

Some posters need to realise though that changing the Coach will not be a magic bullet, it never has been, it takes at least 1 or 2 years, no matter the coach

Was it that, or was it that they all passed as no-one wanted to drink from the "poisoned chalice"? ;-)

Or perhaps the successful candidates liked to drink less than a certain other?

Agree completely. At least give us the chance to put some scoreboard pressure on. It's so frustrating when we have a good 4-6 minutes of play, yet only jag 1 goal, or keep breaking down in the forward third due to no options.

After speaking to Neeld and Craig last night, this was disappointing to them as well, the communciations failure between box and ground level didn't help either, but both don't want to play so many behind the ball, and why he was unhappy with a couple of 'senior' players for not dragging the structures back into place.

They used half time to 'convince' the players to go back to the agreed structures, hence the 3rd qtr is something to show them that it works, it is not that the players don't support or have faith in Neeld, but the inexperience kicks in and players go into their shell.......both Neeld and Craig, and we discussed this, want the players to back themselves.......problem is we only have 3 or 4 and I won't name, but Neeld and Craig agreed who, if they make a mistake...go stuff it and get straight at the next contest.......they need all 22 doing it, they see little signs that the rest are catching up.....but as Neeld says with the inexperience it only takes a couple of mistakes on the trot and the player goes immediately into the shell.......which throws the rest of the team out

Has it occured to you Pates that we are seeing their maximium ability.

IMO what you see is what we have.

The majority of our problems IMO stem from a poor list.

From our 40+ players we have approx. 12 that are good AFL standard, we have 6-7 kids who are in a development stage.

The rest are good VFL players.

End of story

Because some of them have gone backwards, I agree we have a lot of NQR's on our list that may be very good VFL players but can't take the step up, but we aren't as bad as we are getting beaten. We have an AA full back, an AA ruckman (who is albeit getting on), Nate Jones who despite what others say I believe is an A grader (who's having to perform the role of a star), two big forwards (who haven't played together yet) and a bunch of first round picks that seem to be going through the motions. If they are playing to their maximum ability then the recruiting has been a billion times worse than first thought.

I'm not saying we have a gun list, but I have zero doubt we have an under performing list. So has it occurred to me? Yes. But I don't believe it to be the case.

Watts, Blease, Sylvia, Tapscott, and Strauss are all top 20 picks that should be in our best 22 regularly and at least reliable players. Yes they have all had their injuries/issues but they have been around long enough.

Told you about reading my posts, I think you will find I did, about 50-60000, a bit of clariication,

what I want to see and I think the FD is working towards is WWWWLWWW,

not

WLLLLLLLL.....

although we may see that until they get the mix right

Some posters need to realise though that changing the Coach will not be a magic bullet, it never has been, it takes at least 1 or 2 years, no matter the coach

50-60,000 all crammed in the Ponsford Stand..With a very Sparse Northern side..

My Dad a 50 year member does not want to go anymore....Just letting you all know.

You say we might have to wait to get "the mix right"

Meanwhile, whilst waiting the club is on life support.

Satyriconhome what you are talking about does have merit, but it should have been done in 2007-8.

It wasn't, & now we do not have that time up our sleeves...The Martin Flanagan pieces are done.

I blame THE CLUB because that is who is at fault, i do not blame Mark Neeld at all.

But a rookie coach to instill a new culture after years of bad culture.....& this after we had just sacked a rookie coach for losing complete control of his list during 186 ??

After speaking to Neeld and Craig last night, this was disappointing to them as well, the communciations failure between box and ground level didn't help either, but both don't want to play so many behind the ball, and why he was unhappy with a couple of 'senior' players for not dragging the structures back into place.

They used half time to 'convince' the players to go back to the agreed structures, hence the 3rd qtr is something to show them that it works, it is not that the players don't support or have faith in Neeld, but the inexperience kicks in and players go into their shell.......both Neeld and Craig, and we discussed this, want the players to back themselves.......problem is we only have 3 or 4 and I won't name, but Neeld and Craig agreed who, if they make a mistake...go stuff it and get straight at the next contest.......they need all 22 doing it, they see little signs that the rest are catching up.....but as Neeld says with the inexperience it only takes a couple of mistakes on the trot and the player goes immediately into the shell.......which throws the rest of the team out

when you forensically study the replays, you can actually see it happening.

50-60,000 all crammed in the Ponsford Stand..With a very Sparse Northern side..

My Dad a 50 year member does not want to go anymore....Just letting you all know.

You say we might have to wait to get "the mix right"

Meanwhile, whilst waiting the club is on life support.

Satyriconhome what you are talking about does have merit, but it should have been done in 2007-8.

It wasn't, & now we do not have that time up our sleeves...The Martin Flanagan pieces are done.

I blame THE CLUB because that is who is at fault, i do not blame Mark Neeld at all.

But a rookie coach to instill a new culture after years of bad culture.....& this after we had just sacked a rookie coach for losing complete control of his list during 186 ??

WYL there Is no time like the present.

not many coaches are prepared to risk their potential careers, on a culture rebuild... its hard & dirty work, but its the Only Way to sort out the decades of 3rd gear efforts & lack of Professionalism.

I put it to you that if the club gives up on this hard Route, we will lose Misson & Craig, amongst others, who will leave to go to a Pro-gressive Club.

.

50-60,000 all crammed in the Ponsford Stand..With a very Sparse Northern side..

My Dad a 50 year member does not want to go anymore....Just letting you all know.

You say we might have to wait to get "the mix right"

Meanwhile, whilst waiting the club is on life support.

Satyriconhome what you are talking about does have merit, but it should have been done in 2007-8.

It wasn't, & now we do not have that time up our sleeves...The Martin Flanagan pieces are done.

I blame THE CLUB because that is who is at fault, i do not blame Mark Neeld at all.

But a rookie coach to instill a new culture after years of bad culture.....& this after we had just sacked a rookie coach for losing complete control of his list during 186 ??

I suggest you get your Dad down to the Transport at Fed Sq before the game on Sunday, here you will find supporters with all sorts of differing views of what is wrong/what went wrong/how to fix it........but they are standing behind the team right at this moment coz that is what is needed.........that is the disappointment I feel when posting on this board.........supporters who say they love the team and do nothing but pick holes in it from the Chairman down..........hindsight is a wonderful thing........but we have AGM annually, I have been to the last six or seven and the silence has been deafening

After speaking to Neeld and Craig last night, this was disappointing to them as well, the communciations failure between box and ground level didn't help either, but both don't want to play so many behind the ball, and why he was unhappy with a couple of 'senior' players for not dragging the structures back into place.

They used half time to 'convince' the players to go back to the agreed structures, hence the 3rd qtr is something to show them that it works, it is not that the players don't support or have faith in Neeld, but the inexperience kicks in and players go into their shell.......both Neeld and Craig, and we discussed this, want the players to back themselves.......problem is we only have 3 or 4 and I won't name, but Neeld and Craig agreed who, if they make a mistake...go stuff it and get straight at the next contest.......they need all 22 doing it, they see little signs that the rest are catching up.....but as Neeld says with the inexperience it only takes a couple of mistakes on the trot and the player goes immediately into the shell.......which throws the rest of the team out

Totally agree. While its easy for us as supporters, or coaches for that matter, to imply players to take the game on, run and harass, I guess the mindset of a player aged 19-25, like most of our list, will often change due to nerves, fear and intimidation based on the scoreboard, media and how we have gone for the past few years. Nicholson is a good example of that. You can't doubt his fitness nor his application, and jeez do I get frustrated with him, but the guy makes quite a few errors by foot- it would have to play on your mind and affect your confidence. I know myself, I'm struggling marking overhead at the moment, and all of a sudden you become a bit more reactive, you start thinking about marking on your chest, or where your opponent is. Clearly, some of our players are feeling that too! Can you give an insight into how. Neeld talks when he isn't in front of a camera? Is he as assertive, or is he gradually "softening" in his demeanour?

WYL there Is no time like the present.

not many coaches are prepared to risk their potential careers, on a culture rebuild... its hard & dirty work, but its the Only Way to sort out the decades of 3rd gear efforts & lack of Professionalism.

I put it to you that if the club gives up on this hard Route, we will lose Misson & Craig, amongst others, who will leave to go to a Pro-gressive Club.

.

dead right mate, ive said all season watch the tapes and you can see exactly whats going on and what hes trying to do

the positives seem to be coming out more each week, look at jh he has improved so much from a small tank to a very good fitness level now. actually hes becoming a footballer and not just a highlite real

the amount of supporters realising the need for this rebuild are getting more and more each week

i have seen every game in victoria this year and can see the very beginning of the build, imagine if we have the coconuts to see it through.ive tried to list the negatives of the fd and the positives by far outweigh them

Because some of them have gone backwards, I agree we have a lot of NQR's on our list that may be very good VFL players but can't take the step up, but we aren't as bad as we are getting beaten. We have an AA full back, an AA ruckman (who is albeit getting on), Nate Jones who despite what others say I believe is an A grader (who's having to perform the role of a star), two big forwards (who haven't played together yet) and a bunch of first round picks that seem to be going through the motions. If they are playing to their maximum ability then the recruiting has been a billion times worse than first thought.

I'm not saying we have a gun list, but I have zero doubt we have an under performing list. So has it occurred to me? Yes. But I don't believe it to be the case.

Watts, Blease, Sylvia, Tapscott, and Strauss are all top 20 picks that should be in our best 22 regularly and at least reliable players. Yes they have all had their injuries/issues but they have been around long enough.

You have answered your own question, we have a lot of high draft picks, but you need continuity and experience, hardly any of them have had a clean run, everybody at the moment seems to agree Nathan Jones is our best player, why, he is durable, he has completed at least every preseason for the last four or five years and has hardly missed a game.......don't you think Neeld would love it if Strauss, Blease, Watts etc were all about to play their 70th or 80th game together, coz that is what they should be approaching if the gods had smiled

WYL there Is no time like the present.

not many coaches are prepared to risk their potential careers, on a culture rebuild... its hard & dirty work, but its the Only Way to sort out the decades of 3rd gear efforts & lack of Professionalism.

I put it to you that if the club gives up on this hard Route, we will lose Misson & Craig, amongst others, who will leave to go to a Pro-gressive Club.

.

I suggest you get your Dad down to the Transport at Fed Sq before the game on Sunday, here you will find supporters with all sorts of differing views of what is wrong/what went wrong/how to fix it........but they are standing behind the team right at this moment coz that is what is needed.........that is the disappointment I feel when posting on this board.........supporters who say they love the team and do nothing but pick holes in it from the Chairman down..........hindsight is a wonderful thing........but we have AGM annually, I have been to the last six or seven and the silence has been deafening

WYL there Is no time like the present.

not many coaches are prepared to risk their potential careers, on a culture rebuild... its hard & dirty work, but its the Only Way to sort out the decades of 3rd gear efforts & lack of Professionalism.

I put it to you that if the club gives up on this hard Route, we will lose Misson & Craig, amongst others, who will leave to go to a Pro-gressive Club.

.

I suggest you get your Dad down to the Transport at Fed Sq before the game on Sunday, here you will find supporters with all sorts of differing views of what is wrong/what went wrong/how to fix it........but they are standing behind the team right at this moment coz that is what is needed.........that is the disappointment I feel when posting on this board.........supporters who say they love the team and do nothing but pick holes in it from the Chairman down..........hindsight is a wonderful thing........but we have AGM annually, I have been to the last six or seven and the silence has been deafening

Couldn't find 2 better posts highlighting the fact we need to stick together.

After speaking to Neeld and Craig last night, this was disappointing to them as well, the communciations failure between box and ground level didn't help either, but both don't want to play so many behind the ball, and why he was unhappy with a couple of 'senior' players for not dragging the structures back into place.

They used half time to 'convince' the players to go back to the agreed structures, hence the 3rd qtr is something to show them that it works, it is not that the players don't support or have faith in Neeld, but the inexperience kicks in and players go into their shell.......both Neeld and Craig, and we discussed this, want the players to back themselves.......problem is we only have 3 or 4 and I won't name, but Neeld and Craig agreed who, if they make a mistake...go stuff it and get straight at the next contest.......they need all 22 doing it, they see little signs that the rest are catching up.....but as Neeld says with the inexperience it only takes a couple of mistakes on the trot and the player goes immediately into the shell.......which throws the rest of the team out

OK, good answer but it does point to problems we still seem to be having with our senior players. It made no sense for us to be playing so many behind the ball when we are supposed to be teaching a game structure.

It seems that so many still don't know when to stay or go, the game is not natural to them.

WYL there Is no time like the present.

not many coaches are prepared to risk their potential careers, on a culture rebuild... its hard & dirty work, but its the Only Way to sort out the decades of 3rd gear efforts & lack of Professionalism.

I put it to you that if the club gives up on this hard Route, we will lose Misson & Craig, amongst others, who will leave to go to a Pro-gressive Club.

.

I reckon they'd leave to go to a club that has the guts to follow through on what it has planned to do, and not give up half way through just because it gets hard due to public pressure.

Totally agree. While its easy for us as supporters, or coaches for that matter, to imply players to take the game on, run and harass, I guess the mindset of a player aged 19-25, like most of our list, will often change due to nerves, fear and intimidation based on the scoreboard, media and how we have gone for the past few years. Nicholson is a good example of that. You can't doubt his fitness nor his application, and jeez do I get frustrated with him, but the guy makes quite a few errors by foot- it would have to play on your mind and affect your confidence. I know myself, I'm struggling marking overhead at the moment, and all of a sudden you become a bit more reactive, you start thinking about marking on your chest, or where your opponent is. Clearly, some of our players are feeling that too! Can you give an insight into how. Neeld talks when he isn't in front of a camera? Is he as assertive, or is he gradually "softening" in his demeanour?

Neeld is excellent with supporters, you ask a question you get an answer, no spin, same with Neil Craig. I am shy and retiring NOT myself and my lovely lady asked at least another three question two on one and walked away impressed by not only the answer but the amount of thought Mark had put into them

OK, good answer but it does point to problems we still seem to be having with our senior players. It made no sense for us to be playing so many behind the ball when we are supposed to be teaching a game structure.

It seems that so many still don't know when to stay or go, the game is not natural to them.

Neeldy covered this, this is the problem with inexperience, the senior players can sense the momentum shift and try and do the right thing and flood back to stop a belting, the less experienced panic and start shell inhabiting and the three or four mentioned before go down fighting.....and we get the 1st qtr against Freo......it is getting all 22 on the same page......hence Neeld telling me to my face he had expressed his 'disappointment' to a couple of the senior players

Sorry busy now, if you want to follow up anything I put, will check back in later tonight to answer