Meanwhile we have a coach who can't get our players to try for 4 quarters.

Not looking too good for Brad Scott then. Or Sanderson: Adelaide were 6 goals up half way through the third. By half way through the last they were 5 goals down, that's an 11 goal turn-around. Buckley's comment after the game was that Collingwood had only played a half of footy. etc. etc.

I think Neeld knows exactly where we were at and where we are at, it's us fans that are not prepared to listen.

Compare the Demons with the Hawks.

Captains

Hodge (205 games, 144 goals, Norm smith medal (2008), All-Australian (2005, 2008), Premiership (2008), top 3 in club best and fairest (2005 - 2008)

Grimes + Trengove (56+61=117 games (combined), 5 + 31=36 goals (combined), both NAB AFL Rising Star nominee,...

That is Hodge has played 88 more games than Grime and Trenners COMBINED, and kicked 108 more gaols than both of them, etc... And as Mark Neeld recently said Grimes and Trenners are the "best leaders we have at the club at the moment".

Best players On weekend

Hawthorn - Hodge (205 games/144 goals), Franklin (164/531), Shiels (67/19), Birchall (155,19), Stratton (55,1), Gibson (127,2), Roughead (162, 300), Burgoyne (224,209) = Average for Hawks best is 144 games and 153 goals per player, 8 players in best.

Melbourne - N Jones (138/69), M Jones (3/0), Grimes (56/5), Sylvia (141/122)= Average for Demons best is 84 games and 49 goals per player, 4 players in best.

That is, the best for Hawthorn averaged 60 more games than our best, and 104 goals on average more. They had 1 player under 100 game in their 8 best, we had 2 under 100 games including our captian and a player with 3 games experience.

Summary

Neeld has coached these men for 25 AFL games with a woefully underdeveloped list relative to the teams he is charged with performing against. take Average player age or Average player games or top 50 players awards, etc... and on all these metrics we were behind the average in the AFL PRIOR to Mark's arrival. To assume a miracle surge is to fundamentally ignore the realities of the competition we are in.

Do the same analysis and replace the Hawks with Port, or Richmond. Would make interesting reading.

Except for James MacDonald (which is bailey era) name me one player who was a real leader that has departed the club?

THe only I can think of is Rivers and he wasn't even in the leadership group - please clarify this statement

Scott Thompson and maybe Matthew Bishop, but they are starting to go back in time a bit far. Bishop was very well repected at PA, I believe, 2004 premiership player.

Scott Thompson and maybe Matthew Bishop, but they are starting to go back in time a bit far. Bishop was very well repected at PA, I believe, 2004 premiership player.

A pretty extensive list of leaders have emerged from this club.. it's pretty heartening haha.. sigh

all the other teams that may be 0-4 this weekend are competitive with bright presents and futures

We are a basket case

Mick Malthouse would love to have Clark, Hogan, Dawes and Gawn at Carlton. Brad Scott would love them at North.

Mick Malthouse would love to have Clark, Hogan, Dawes and Gawn at Carlton. Brad Scott would love them at North.

They'd probably have better careers elsewhere. That's almost certain. We are the non developers of footballers. Half our blokes can't even kick to position.

By the time many of our players have reached 22/23 years of age they're ready to be delisted. Not one A grader on our list and not many B graders. We have a percentage of 35 and have had only one legitimate win since '186'.

.

I'm happy to defer to Dave Misson's expertise when it comes to AFL player fitness.

I expect many of the keyboard experts here couldn't even do 10 push ups.

Rising 66 and can still do 5 sets of 100 without too much effort.

Consider this theory.

Melbourne shite ----- coached by an ex pie coach.

Carlton Shite ------ coached by an ex pies coach

St. Kilda Shite ------ coached by an ex pies coach.

Collingwood had 15 goals in the 2nd half kicked against them, just like melbourne.--------- coached by a collingwood coach.

GCS improving but Shite--------- coached by an ex collingwood coach.

Summary,

Move that lot of rabble off shore and we all improve.

I think Neeld knows exactly where we were at and where we are at, it's us fans that are not prepared to listen.

Compare the Demons with the Hawks.

Captains

Hodge (205 games, 144 goals, Norm smith medal (2008), All-Australian (2005, 2008), Premiership (2008), top 3 in club best and fairest (2005 - 2008)

Grimes + Trengove (56+61=117 games (combined), 5 + 31=36 goals (combined), both NAB AFL Rising Star nominee,...

That is Hodge has played 88 more games than Grime and Trenners COMBINED, and kicked 108 more gaols than both of them, etc... And as Mark Neeld recently said Grimes and Trenners are the "best leaders we have at the club at the moment".

Best players On weekend

Hawthorn - Hodge (205 games/144 goals), Franklin (164/531), Shiels (67/19), Birchall (155,19), Stratton (55,1), Gibson (127,2), Roughead (162, 300), Burgoyne (224,209) = Average for Hawks best is 144 games and 153 goals per player, 8 players in best.

Melbourne - N Jones (138/69), M Jones (3/0), Grimes (56/5), Sylvia (141/122)= Average for Demons best is 84 games and 49 goals per player, 4 players in best.

That is, the best for Hawthorn averaged 60 more games than our best, and 104 goals on average more. They had 1 player under 100 game in their 8 best, we had 2 under 100 games including our captian and a player with 3 games experience.

Summary

Neeld has coached these men for 25 AFL games with a woefully underdeveloped list relative to the teams he is charged with performing against. take Average player age or Average player games or top 50 players awards, etc... and on all these metrics we were behind the average in the AFL PRIOR to Mark's arrival. To assume a miracle surge is to fundamentally ignore the realities of the competition we are in.

Hey, be careful PaulRB - you're basing your opinion on a detailed analysis of the underlying facts.

Many in the media and some here simply hate that approach. They prefer a simplistic analysis of 'facts', all of which merely confirm their pre-existing bias.

So, here goes - we're 300 plus points down after the first three games. What do you say about that?! And don't tell me that Port, Essendon and West Coast (with Kerr and LeCras back) were actually in red hot form in those games.

Ohh, and even though we finished 12th in 2010, we actually won games against the Swans and the Crows at the G. How do you explain those facts?

Interested in your views on these two points, given that they get flogged to death here.

Hey, be careful PaulRB - you're basing your opinion on a detailed analysis of the underlying facts.

Many in the media and some here simply hate that approach. They prefer a simplistic analysis of 'facts', all of which merely confirm their pre-existing bias.

So, here goes - we're 300 plus points down after the first three games. What do you say about that?! And don't tell me that Port, Essendon and West Coast (with Kerr and LeCras back) were actually in red hot form in those games.

Ohh, and even though we finished 12th in 2010, we actually won games against the Swans and the Crows at the G. How do you explain those facts?

Interested in your views on these two points, given that they get flogged to death here.

Intersecting bell curves can both humiliate (point 1) and flatter (point 2). ;-)

Do the same analysis and replace the Hawks with Port, or Richmond. Would make interesting reading.

Best players On weekend

Richmond - Martin (66 games/70 goals), Deledio (175/122), Cotchin (89/55), Houli (73,19), Maric (101,37), Morris (24,1), McGuane (96, 26), = Average for Tigers best is 89 games and 47 goals per player, 7 players in best.

Melbourne - N Jones (138/69), M Jones (3/0), Grimes (56/5), Sylvia (141/122)= Average for Demons best is 84 games and 49 goals per player, 4 players in best.

That is, the best for Tigers averaged 5 more games than our best, and 2 goals on average less. They had 5 player under 100 game in their 7 best, we had 2 under 100 games including our captian and a player with 3 games experience.

Similar profile between Tigers and Demons so perhaps the additional piece that they have had the same coach for 3-4 years whereas ours for 1 years means they have been able to implement and consolidate a game style that suits and hence make progress.