I agree that our recruitment has been poor and on the surface we don't seem to have developed well, but it's difficult to know how to apportion the blame on development. I doubt we'll get a consensus.

I do believe that stars and mature bodies make a team infinitely better and that we don't have any of the former. There's a reason that Cheney and Simon Buckley can get games in top 4 sides and having watched them this year I don't believe they're better footballers than when they were with us. It's easier to play in better teams. And teams are better when they're more mature and they have a few stars.

People underestimate the importance of stars.

I completely agree with that and I was taught that lesson when Heffernan came from Essendon and was not able to do for us what he was able to do for the Bombers - stars make other players seem better as they carry less load, less attention, and less responsibility.

With regard to 'big arses' - I just see Hawthorn, Coll, WCE, StK, Syd and Adel build their players up through the middle and the thighs but still maintain their power and that is why, in my opinion, we get so badly beaten by the best teams - they throw us around and intimidate us around the footy.

My idea of 'development' is Misson building the frames of our 18-24 year olds and allow them to compete with the best players. The only issue is that takes time - hence the desire for 'plug in and play' professionals from other clubs in this off-season.

Who has the best list.

Melbourne

Doggies

Kangaroos

Blues

Richmond

Brisbane.

They all kinda look the same to me.

Remember, moloney and jamar were the no1 clearance duo in 2011.

Let's look at the top 6 players of each side you mentioned.

Melbourne:

This is tough, because some of our better players, such as Jamar, have been in poor form or are out injured - Jurrah.

Clark, Frawley, Jones, Grimes, Sylvia, Rivers

Footscray:

Boyd, Cross, Griffen, Murphy, Lake, Cooney

North:

Petrie, Swallow, Harvey, Wells, Ziebell, McIntosh/Goldstein

Carlton:

Judd, Murphy, Carrazzo, Gibbs, Simpson, Scotland

Richmond:

Cotchin, Riewoldt, Deledio, Martin, Rance, Maric

Brisbane:

Brown, Black, Rockliff, Redden, Rich, Merrett

If I had to place these lists of top 6 in order I'd go:

Carlton

North

Richmond

Brisbane

Footscray

Melbourne

If I ranked the clubs on depth it would be:

North

Carlton

Melbourne

Brisbane

Richmond

Footscray

My overall ranking of the lists assuming they were in a healthy state and taking into account the age and my subjective belief of their potential would be:

Carlton

North

Richmond

Melbourne

Brisbane

Footscray

I believe that clubs with a new coaching group and a completely new game-plan are at a disadvantage. Younger lists will also have a query, because any evaluation is to a certain extent based on unproven potential.

My natural bias may have Melbourne a little high in the overall rankings, but I think our list of under 25's is as good as most in the competition, but our lack of genuine star factor, or pointy end talent means that we don't have enough players capable of influencing games. Stars make a massive difference on football clubs and their fortunes. I have no doubt we have better depth than Richmond, but equally I have no doubt that their best players are better and with Cotchin, Tuck, Foley, Deledio, and Martin they have a superior midfield.

If we can develop some stars, take advantage of our strong hand in a quality draft, get fitter and stronger, and genuinely improve the midfield I believe that our list is well place to move up the ranking over the next 2-3 years. If we can unearth 2 or 3 A grade mids it will make the world of difference all over the field.

But I can also understand why we're behind the clubs you named.

My idea of 'development' is Misson building the frames of our 18-24 year olds and allow them to compete with the best players. The only issue is that takes time - hence the desire for 'plug in and play' professionals from other clubs in this off-season.

I agree with this, but I also see the importance of smarts to use their developed bodies in and around contests - blocking(shepherding), tackling, intensity for second and third contests. Execution by foot and hand.

I see someone like Ben Howlett improve in various areas. And I understand that a great role model in Watson (star player) who took time himself to improve through extra work loads (boxing, gym, strength training), speak to his role models (Hird, etc) - he has had a massive influence on younger players at Essendon.

Watson couldn't hit the side of a barn a few years ago ..... great role models for all aspiring kids.

I would look to delisted players from other clubs but I would also be keen on the Dayne Zorko's of this world. Overlooked from 2007 and then wins 4 B+Fs in Broadbeach and the Lions snap him up off the GCs Zone Selection.

Solid body and looks a talent.

That would be the prototype of player to bring in - outside of FA players, Picks 3, 4 , 13, Viney, and any professionals up for trades.

Melbourne:

Clark, Frawley, Jones, Grimes*, Sylvia*, Rivers

Footscray:

Boyd, Cross, Griffen, Murphy, Lake, Cooney*

North:

Petrie, Swallow, Harvey, Wells, Ziebell, McIntosh/Goldstein

Carlton:

Judd, Murphy, Carrazzo, Gibbs*, Simpson, Scotland

Richmond:

Cotchin, Riewoldt, Deledio, Martin, Rance, Maric

Brisbane:

Brown, Black, Rockliff, Redden, Rich, Merrett

I took particular interest in this post when looking at the midfield component of the top 6 for these sides. I've highlighted in bold the midfielders. With those listed "*" part time mids. Comparing ours to the other sides mentioned I believe Jones is our only "true" midfielder. Certainly Grimes has been tried there and a fit Sylvia is capable of playing there but he can alternate through half forward.

But it's no wonder our midfield is left wanting when the other sides mentioned have 4 + (in Richmonds case = 3) of their top 6 in their respective midfields, and we have one !

But I can also understand why we're behind the clubs you named.

This is my conclusion re: quality mids. And in Jones' case, to me he is no "A" grader.

This is really easy tonatopia

In decending order

North Melbourne

Carlton

Richmond

Brisbane

W Bulldogs

Melbourne

In the final analysis the score board tells you

Everything else is just waffle

getting a bit logical in your old age there mate

This is my conclusion re: quality mids. And in Jones case, to me he is no "A" grader.

Equally though, I don't rate Ziebell, Harvey (not this year) Simpson, Rich, Cross or Cooney (with his knees as they are) as 'A' graders either. They might be in their top 6 players... but

still not A Grade quality. The problem is that we don't have ANY 'A' graders at this point....

The difference is we don't have ANY 'A' graders

Equally though, I don't rate Ziebell, Harvey (not this year) Simpson, Rich, Cross or Cooney (with his knees as they are) as 'A' graders either. They might be in their top 6 players... but

still not A Grade quality. The problem is that we don't have ANY 'A' graders at this point....

The difference is we don't have ANY 'A' graders

And we have very little "B"...

PS. Of those sides mentioned above, they are middle of the road teams. We haven't yet compared to the top half of the ladder ! I don't want to be the cause of further depression so someone else can compare - besides I think we all know what the comparisons will be - a gulf bigger than Ben-Hur (no pun intended).

Dont go there H T.

Theres no coming back.. lol

Ogres and talking donkeys live there its so far away !!!"""

Only a bad tradesman blames his tools.

Our team is as good as any.

FB: Nicholson, Garland, Rivers

HB: Watts, Frawley, Grimes

C: Trengove, Jones, Blease

HF: Sylvia, Jurrah, Howe

FF: Davey, Clark, Green

Fol: Jamar, Moloney, Mckenzie

int: Martin, Tapscott, Mcdonald, Pettered, Jetta, Bail, Dunn, Strauss, Sellar, Morton Gysberts, Bennell, Bartram.

This is a pretty talented list. One that should make the finals.

Stop blaming the tools or injuries. Start looking at the real problem.

You are absolutely dreaming.

I can see 3 who would get a game for Hawthorn - Clark, Watts and Frawley. Maybe Sylvia for X-factor.

This is my conclusion re: quality mids. And in Jones case, to me he is no "A" grader.

A team's best 6 isn't static, it's fluid, and I accept that it's also very subjective, but interestingly 5 of the 6 players I mentioned as our best 6 are first round draft picks. I only realised this after I posted.

Richmond's best 4 players, i.e. Cotchin, Deledio, Riewoldt and Martin are all first round draft picks and 3 of them top 5.

Carlton's best two players in Judd and Murphy are top 5 draft picks.

Three of Hawthorn's best 5 players - Franklin, Roughead, Hodge and Rioli are first round draft picks - three are top 5. Mitchell is the aberration.

Out of Collingwood's best half dozen players two are Father/Sons and two are top 5 draft picks. Their best player is a top 5 draft pick.

Geelong's best 5 players are Selwood, Bartel, Stevie J, Scarlett and James Kelly. The first two are top 10 draft picks, one's a Father/Son and James Kelly was pick 17. Hawkins wouldn't be far away in terms of importance and he too is a Father/Son.

What will 3, 4, and 13 bring to the MFC ? It's massive. Let's just pray that our Father/Son is a second rounder.

A team's best 6 isn't static, it's fluid, and I accept that it's also very subjective, but interestingly 5 of the 6 players I mentioned as our best 6 are first round draft picks. I only realised this after I posted.

Richmond's best 4 players, i.e. Cotchin, Deledio, Riewoldt and Martin are all first round draft picks and 3 of them top 5.

Carlton's best two players in Judd and Murphy are top 5 draft picks.

Three of Hawthorn's best 5 players - Franklin, Roughead, Hodge and Rioli are first round draft picks - three are top 5. Mitchell is the aberration.

Out of Collingwood's best half dozen players two are Father/Sons and two are top 5 draft picks. Their best player is a top 5 draft pick.

Geelong's best 5 players are Selwood, Bartel, Stevie J, Scarlett and James Kelly. The first two are top 10 draft picks, one's a Father/Son and James Kelly was pick 17. Hawkins wouldn't be far away in terms of importance and he too is a Father/Son.

What will 3, 4, and 13 bring to the MFC ? It's massive. Let's just pray that our Father/Son is a second rounder.

I understand it's fluid and not static, was more or less a snapshot of the current situation.

And you're right IMO, I stated around the day we activated the compo picks...it's massive post season. I have an inkling the F/S maybe a 2nd rounder - I hope that's the case.

getting a bit logical in your old age there mate

Not Rocket science is it BB

Not Rocket science is it BB

no..

but its a few blocks too far for many to travel in arriving at balanced view !!

Top 6's (and yes it's fluid & subjective)

Melbourne:

Clark, Frawley, Jones, Grimes*, Sylvia*, Rivers.

Footscray:

Boyd, Cross, Griffen, Murphy, Lake, Cooney*

North Melbourne:

Petrie, Swallow, Harvey, Wells, Ziebell, McIntosh/Goldstein.

Carlton:

Judd, Murphy, Carrazzo, Gibbs*, Simpson, Scotland* - (Robinson*)

Richmond:

Cotchin, Riewoldt, Deledio, Martin, Rance, Maric

Brisbane:

Brown, Black, Rockliff, Redden, Rich, Merrett.

Hawthorn:

Franklin, Roughead, Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Rioli, (Sewell).

Collingwood:

Swan, Pendlebury, Thomas, Sidebottom, Cloke, Beams.

Geelong:

Selwood, Bartel, Stevie J*, Kelly, Scarlett, Hawkins.

Sydney:

Goodes*, Kennedy, Bolton, Jack, Mumford, Jetta.

Adelaide:

Thompson, Dangerfield, Sloane, Tippett, Walker, Jacobs.

West Coast:

Cox, Priddis, Kennedy, Shuey, Waters, Kerr, (Glass).

Essendon:

Watson, Hurley, Fletcher, Howlett, Ryder, Stanton.

Fremantle:

Pavlich*, Sandilands, Mundy, Fyfe, McPharlin, Hill.

Port Adelaide:

Boak, Thomas, Cassissi, Hartlett, Trengove, Ebert.

Gold Coast:

Ablett, Bennell, Caddy, McKenzie*, Prestia, Rischitelli.

St.Kilda:

Riewoldt, Hayes, Dal Santo, Milne, Goddard*, Fisher.

GWS:

Ward, Greene, Cameron, Coniglio, Cornes, Giles.

The underlined represent midfielders with asterisks (*) representing part timer mids. For Carlton I've listed seven because I couldn't split Robinson and Scotland. (Kruezer just missed).

It shows how deficient our team is for quality mids in our top 6 players. Essendon is also relatively thin in this regard outside of Watson, Stanton and the ever the improving Howlett.

It highlights our needs that have to be addressed in order to compete.

Quality midfielders are a priority. Jones our best midfielder would probably rank outside the top 6 for a large portion of the other sides in the competition.

For our midfield to be really competitive Jones IMO would need to rank our 4th or 5th best mid.

edit: Fixed, BH agree on Stanton, put him ahead of Crameri - but I really think he is a huge influence for their side. Very close to top 6.

* Also changed Van Berlo for Jacobs - Adelaide.

* In bold is who I consider each teams most important player. Not necessarily the best player - but most critical to the teams functionality.

Top 6's Essendon:Watson, Hurley, Fletcher, Howlett, Ryder, Crameri. It shows how deficient our team is for quality mids in our top 6 players. Essendon is also thin in this regard outside of Watson and ever the improving Howlett.

I know he has his critics, but I think you'd have to have Stanton in their top 6 even though he's slowed down a bit of late.

I know he has his critics, but I think you'd have to have Stanton in their top 6 even though he's slowed down a bit of late.

Fixed having agreed and overlooked him. Although I believe Crameri is very close in terms of importance for the Bombers structurally and very close to best 6.