On 11/02/2012 at 04:39, stuie said:

Lol... Beamer haters are coming out of the woodwork.. What is he supposed to do, tap it down to himself, clear it himself, handball to himself running past who then delivers inside 50 to himself... oh and then he kicks the goal

Well thought out rebuttal Stuie. Feel free at any time to address my statement.

  On 13/02/2012 at 07:25, Roost It said:

Trengove, Grimes, Viney are the makings of a great midfield. We need another dose of serious class to take us to a Premiership threat.

Hardly 50 games between the first two and another one that hasn't even been drafted yet....

  On 13/02/2012 at 11:38, Curry & Beer said:

that's 5 shots at the top 5 in a 7-year period, 6 including non-midfield Watts. Here is the other 29 top-5 picks from that period:

Adam Cooney

Andrew Walker

Farren Ray

Brett Deledio

Jarryd Roughead

Ryan Griffen

Richard Tambling

Lance Franklin

Marc Murphy

Dale Thomas

Xavier Ellis

Josh Kennedy

Scott Pendlebury

Bryce Gibbs

Scott Gumbleton

Lachlan Hansen

Matthew Leuenberger

Travis Boak

Matthew Kreuzer

Trent Cotchin

Chris Masten

Jarrad Grant

Nic Naitanui

Stephen Hill

Hamish Hartlett

Michael Hurley

Dustin Martin

Anthony Morabito

Ben Cunnington

wouldnt mind trading the McLean, Morton and Scully picks for 3 from that lot

OK you can have Jarrod Grant, Lachlan Hansen and Scott Gumbleton.

I suspect you wouldn't take them...

  On 13/02/2012 at 11:38, Curry & Beer said:

that's 5 shots at the top 5 in a 7-year period, 6 including non-midfield Watts. Here is the other 29 top-5 picks from that period:

Adam Cooney

Andrew Walker

Farren Ray

Brett Deledio

Jarryd Roughead

Ryan Griffen

Richard Tambling

Lance Franklin

Marc Murphy

Dale Thomas

Xavier Ellis

Josh Kennedy

Scott Pendlebury

Bryce Gibbs

Scott Gumbleton

Lachlan Hansen

Matthew Leuenberger

Travis Boak

Matthew Kreuzer

Trent Cotchin

Chris Masten

Jarrad Grant

Nic Naitanui

Stephen Hill

Hamish Hartlett

Michael Hurley

Dustin Martin

Anthony Morabito

Ben Cunnington

wouldnt mind trading the McLean, Morton and Scully picks for 3 from that lot

You fail to see that much of this list is irrelevant.

Most of it came down to bad luck (or bad tanking if you like) in that the picks we got simply weren't in the best drafts, or we weren't well enough positioned in those drafts.

We never had the option to choose the bolded players, and the ones in italics we didn't get because we opted for Scully and Trengove (once again, if you foresaw that Scully would leave, i'd like you to PM me next week's lotto numbers... and btw, he was a mid).

If you'd prefer the remaining few over Watts, that's your prerogative, but there are only 2 players on that entire list we could have chosen and it wouldn't have cost us either Watts, Trengove or Scully... Farren bloody Ray and Jarrad Grant.

Ones not even a mid, nor looks like being a great player, at that.

I mean, it's like you're working against yourself here...

  On 13/02/2012 at 11:40, Harrisonrules said:

These are all secondary. When it comes to ball sports, its all in the mind. A fraction of a second can turn a slower person into someone who is always in the right spot. The shorter person reads the flight of the ball quicker than the taller and positions himself more quickly. The qicker the mind the better the anticipation. The more quickly they see the options.. You can put on bulk, you can practice longer than others,and yes it helps you reach you optimum but if you don't have the elite mind you won't climb to the top. Ask the elite batsman or the elite slips fieldsman. Its the mind that turns the good footballer into the great football. Think about it.

I think that in part is what I am trying to say, particularly with Moloney and Silvia and why I don't like to see them both in the centre square at the same time, their reaction time and decision making is not at elite level. Mitchell at Hawthorn is not quick across the ground but his reaction time is razor sharp and this makes him such an asset around the stopages.

The way we set up includes the mix of players we have in an area at a given time, we can't set up with all one dimensional players. Of our current crop Trengove is the one I see that has the tools to be elite, Gysberts has the football brain but is still developing the body, Grimes is class but as everyone says needs to get on the park.

Blease is an interesting one to me, he has speed and skill but needs to get the smart a... part out of his game - he has always been a good kick on both sides of his body from junior days but at times he tries to show off and take the redicules non percentage option. He could provide that break away speed and ball use we need.

Yep, couldn't agree with you more, quickness of mind and awareness (peripheral vision) are non negotiables for an elite mid fielder.

btw, not only will Gysberts be an absolute jet (not far off it now), but Morton will prove a lot of people wrong.

Bookmark it.

Hindsight is 20/20. I think every team in the AFL if given picks 1&2 in 2009 would have taken Scully and Trengove. Morton was touted as a potential number 1 pick by many analysts, and we managed to nab him at #3. Sylvia clearly has the goods but just need to develop the consistency. McLean was great for us and many wanted him as our next captain before deciding to defect to Carlscum. It all seems to come down to luck, and I think that our luck is starting to change.

We actually nabbed Morton at 4

And Brock was a good ordinary footballer, but the game passed him by when the physical demands changed as his physical abilities diminished.

Still not many in that draft you'd take in place of Brock, when you compare their output to date.

  On 13/02/2012 at 06:55, Ben-Hur said:

I have no issues with "opinions". Where have I said otherwise ? I said that we view football differently and we'll "agree to differ".

As I'm not keen on sagas and you're becoming a tad melodramatic I'll leave it there.

You're my hero

  On 13/02/2012 at 06:54, Rhino Richards said:

* Pace - mostly in the first 20m that star midfielders have. - Nothing special. In fact I worried having at one time, McLean, Beamer and Jones in the guts. Too many too slow.

* Power - can break takcles, especially when Jamar is on top in the ruck. - Not sure how Jamar in the ruck helps him break tackles. But when Jamar is down Beamer goes missing

* Strength - has very good leg strength, means he keeps his feet, and in return, his tackles stick - Strength should be a benefit particularly against young side but needs to be more accountable for his opponent defensively.

* Awareness - knows when to kick short or long, rarely puts his teammates under pressure - Disagree. Moloney is only beginning to develop the nous as what to do with the ball. Too often he would bomb it long. Still needs to define the art against better oppositions. Many of his disposals in those games do not impact.

* Kicking - can hit a target 55m+, or kick a goal off one or tw steps from outside 50m. - Too often kicks too long and does not kick to the top of square. He has only kicked 34 goals in 130 games. There would be few instances of the long goal happening over his whole career.

* Leadership - was stiff not to remain in the LG in 2012, but won't sit back and let it happen, will do something about it. - Irrelevant given Neeld thinks otherwise and has dumped him from the leadership group. Needs to justify his role in the team.

I appreciate your views RR, but at this stage, I don't think all those resonses are that difficult to fix, especially with this new, so-called whiz bang, ex-midfield miracle coach we have in charge.

* You have totally missed my comment about his pace. An inside mid like Beamer to have acceleration over 20m is more than useful.

* The power comment relates to when Jamar puts it in Beamer's space and he can hit the contest in motion. Some players can hit a contest hard and still get stopped, others, like Beamer, hit a ontest hard and keeps going. As you rightly said about Beamer going missing when Jamar is down, this is defintely an area that I expect Neeld to work on (ie learn to rove opposition rucks).

* The strength/accountability side should improve with increased fitness and the reported couple of kgs that he has lost.

* His awareness is improving, correct, but that's more because we are slowly having more players around the ball, rather than looking around and not having anyone to pass off to. A more structured clearance set-up will see Moloney's disposal effiencency increase I'm sure. He is the clearance king.

* His long kick doesn't go to the top of the square because we haven't had anyone there for 4 years. There is a myth about kick to the top of the square - it's too easy for defenders to punch it through for a point. A kick to 20 metres out puts far greater pressure on the opposition, providing you have forward pressure. I also think you will find that a majority of his career goals have come from outside 50. Check it out and get back to me. I do acknowledge that he needs to kick more goals, but the rest of our midfield are in the same boat.

* How is his leadership irrelevant? Of course it's bloody relevant given he is in the engine room and can have an impact on a result. It's irrelevant tha the hasn't got a title, but his onfield leadership will be as important this year as ever.

I don't think I've said he is a star, but while there are a few things that he needs to work on (which all the Beamer supporters are happy to agree with), I think they are quite achievable in a short space of time, especially if Neeld is as good working with the mids as everyone tells me he is. Neeld talks about elite compliance - I would imagine most of those Beamer issues you have raised would definitely fall under this category.

No doubt we'll see a response from you soon - you always love having the last word. But, like everyone, we'll be watching Beamer's 2012 with great interest.

  On 13/02/2012 at 21:55, Lutz said:

We actually nabbed Morton at 4

...thanks for nitpicking, it doesn't change the argument I was trying to make.

  On 13/02/2012 at 22:00, Lutz said:

And Brock was a good ordinary footballer, but the game passed him by when the physical demands changed as his physical abilities diminished.

Still not many in that draft you'd take in place of Brock, when you compare their output to date.

Still probably the best midfielder we had when he decided to leave.

  On 13/02/2012 at 22:26, billy2803 said:

You're my hero

I appreciate your views RR, but at this stage, I don't think all those resonses are that difficult to fix, especially with this new, so-called whiz bang, ex-midfield miracle coach we have in charge.

* You have totally missed my comment about his pace. An inside mid like Beamer to have acceleration over 20m is more than useful.

* The power comment relates to when Jamar puts it in Beamer's space and he can hit the contest in motion. Some players can hit a contest hard and still get stopped, others, like Beamer, hit a ontest hard and keeps going. As you rightly said about Beamer going missing when Jamar is down, this is defintely an area that I expect Neeld to work on (ie learn to rove opposition rucks).

* The strength/accountability side should improve with increased fitness and the reported couple of kgs that he has lost.

* His awareness is improving, correct, but that's more because we are slowly having more players around the ball, rather than looking around and not having anyone to pass off to. A more structured clearance set-up will see Moloney's disposal effiencency increase I'm sure. He is the clearance king.

* His long kick doesn't go to the top of the square because we haven't had anyone there for 4 years. There is a myth about kick to the top of the square - it's too easy for defenders to punch it through for a point. A kick to 20 metres out puts far greater pressure on the opposition, providing you have forward pressure. I also think you will find that a majority of his career goals have come from outside 50. Check it out and get back to me. I do acknowledge that he needs to kick more goals, but the rest of our midfield are in the same boat.

* How is his leadership irrelevant? Of course it's bloody relevant given he is in the engine room and can have an impact on a result. It's irrelevant tha the hasn't got a title, but his onfield leadership will be as important this year as ever.

I don't think I've said he is a star, but while there are a few things that he needs to work on (which all the Beamer supporters are happy to agree with), I think they are quite achievable in a short space of time, especially if Neeld is as good working with the mids as everyone tells me he is. Neeld talks about elite compliance - I would imagine most of those Beamer issues you have raised would definitely fall under this category.

I understand the need for pace in the midfield over 20metres. Moloney does not have it and you cant buy it. And its cruels him defensively.

I understand the Jamar comment. But Beamer requires a perfect tap to his advantage to bust a tackle. If he starting to run at speed and strength against a stationery player then he should be breaking at least some tackles.

His accountability is a mindset issue and if the dropping of kgs is an issue then it might indicate his lack of fitness in recent years.

His awareness is a personal issue not based on the number of players around the ball. He cant be the clearance king if he is so dependent upon Jamar being there to give him an easy ride. If he needs too much structure one wonders about his abiility to think under pressure particularly against good opposition.

When he goes long he should be putting to the top of the square so if the ball is not marked it can be brought to ground. I would have thought at the very least the presence of Green and Jurrah should have made you assessment invalid. Too often he overcooks the ball and we lose possession and advantage. Another issue about thinking. And you check out prove your claim on the goal kicking. You're the one making it.

The leadership issue is irrelevant because Neeld has decided it and Beamer is not it. His "onfield leadership" is winning the possession of the ball, using it effectively and nullify his opposite number in the midfield whether it be a good team or bad team. He needs to follow and execute constructively his role in Neeld's plan. Nothing more.

I agree he is no star. But i expect him to do his part and perform better against good sides.

  On 13/02/2012 at 22:30, Good Times Grimes said:

Still probably the best midfielder we had when he decided to leave.

Brock McLean??? - I dont think so. MFC did not have a good midfield in his last year. But he was not good enough to get in it. Could not get a gig in the main centre make up in his final years. Spent many of the games tagging players because he could not hurt sides offensively.

Our most damaging and dangerous midfielder is Col Sylvia, hopefully he can get his head right and the new coaching staff can get his best more often, he has all the attributes to be an elite midfielder, his first 4 years at the club he was limited by injuries, to me he is a midfielder resting forward and not the other way around. The last two years we have seen a couple of games from him that teases us, hopefully he can become more than a tease.

I've had the opinion for many years that our midfield is to one paced we have the grinding type midfielders rather than the explosive types. Once again Sylvia is explosive can get away from the contest and the other is Blease but he will blow up to quick playing in the midfield for now. We tried adding Davey to give this speed worked for a little while then he started getting tagged and it was all over for him.

I'm OK with what we have in our midfield all we need to do is add some outside quality and we will be OK. The best way to beat the zones is to have some players that can take it on with speed and skill, the old run and carry like any sport that has zones its about drawing the zone to you to create space.

  On 13/02/2012 at 22:30, Good Times Grimes said:

...thanks for nitpicking, it doesn't change the argument I was trying to make.

Still probably the best midfielder we had when he decided to leave.

Totally agree, in case you missed that.

  On 13/02/2012 at 22:26, billy2803 said:

You're my hero

Thank you, although you'd appreciate it's a circumstance with which I'm not unfamiliar.

  On 13/02/2012 at 23:10, drdrake said:

Our most damaging and dangerous midfielder is Col Sylvia, hopefully he can get his head right and the new coaching staff can get his best more often, he has all the attributes to be an elite midfielder, his first 4 years at the club he was limited by injuries, to me he is a midfielder resting forward and not the other way around.

Sylvia is our most damaging finisher, but not midfielder. I don't ever see him becoming an elite midfielder, but there's no reason he can't become an elite player. He doesn't have the freakish ability of Stevie J, but there's no reason he can't have a similar impact as a forward that has occasional forays into the middle.

  On 14/02/2012 at 01:17, Ben-Hur said:

Sylvia is our most damaging finisher, but not midfielder. I don't ever see him becoming an elite midfielder, but there's no reason he can't become an elite player. He doesn't have the freakish ability of Stevie J, but there's no reason he can't have a similar impact as a forward that has occasional forays into the middle.

Sylvia could , however , become a 'very good' Centreman/Midfielder . I reckon we're gonna need him in there against the top sides . Otherwise he may be standing around in the forward line twiddling his thumbs ( unless we flood ) . He's too talented to be wasted .

Our current lot of midfielders will have to improve dramatically if we want to have Sylvia as a permanent HFF . In an ideal world that would be the case but for the next year or so he may be needed in the middle ( on occasions ) . You'd like to think that Green , Jurrah , Pettered , Howe and 1 or 2 others will be better forwards this year . That's not a criticism , all players can get better .

Cheers

  On 14/02/2012 at 01:11, Ben-Hur said:

Thank you, although you'd appreciate it's a circumstance with which I'm not unfamiliar.

Good to see you've got the ADHD under control Ben.

  On 14/02/2012 at 01:59, Macca said:

Sylvia could , however , become a 'very good' Centreman/Midfielder . I reckon we're gonna need him in there against the top sides . Otherwise he may be standing around in the forward line twiddling his thumbs ( unless we flood ) . He's too talented to be wasted .

Our current lot of midfielders will have to improve dramatically if we want to have Sylvia as a permanent HFF . In an ideal world that would be the case but for the next year or so he may be needed in the middle ( on occasions ) . You'd like to think that Green , Jurrah , Pettered , Howe and 1 or 2 others will be better forwards this year . That's not a criticism , all players can get better .

Cheers

Good post Macca. I think Neeld will give Sylvia a lot more responsibility than previous years. It won't hurt Col, or us for that matter, if he were to start in the guts at every bounce. It will also give us the ability to play both Petterd and Howe in the same team.

While I think Moloney is currently our best player, Col definitely has the the ability to be a match winner, and beside LJ, is probably our biggest X Factor player.

  On 14/02/2012 at 02:07, billy2803 said:

Good post Macca. I think Neeld will give Sylvia a lot more responsibility than previous years. It won't hurt Col, or us for that matter, if he were to start in the guts at every bounce. It will also give us the ability to play both Petterd and Howe in the same team.

While I think Moloney is currently our best player, Col definitely has the the ability to be a match winner, and beside LJ, is probably our biggest X Factor player.

Yep , the key here is that we have to change things . The past way of doing it simply doesn't work ( especially our midfield set-up ) .

I've got a feeling that Mark Neeld will make some real left field moves ( or that's how we might perceive it ) .

Certain coaches have certain ways of doing things and other coaches have opposite views . Neeld coached one of the the best midfields in the comp so we should expect some real improvement in this area .

Cheers 'billy'

  On 14/02/2012 at 02:07, billy2803 said:

Good post Macca. I think Neeld will give Sylvia a lot more responsibility than previous years. It won't hurt Col, or us for that matter, if he were to start in the guts at every bounce. It will also give us the ability to play both Petterd and Howe in the same team.

While I think Moloney is currently our best player, Col definitely has the the ability to be a match winner, and beside LJ, is probably our biggest X Factor player.

Personal opinion but I think Petterd would be a better bet in the midfield than Silvia but I guess time will tell.

  On 14/02/2012 at 05:11, rjay said:

Personal opinion but I think Petterd would be a better bet in the midfield than Silvia but I guess time will tell.

Petterd is not in the same class as Sylvia, regardless of what position they play in.

Ricky Bobby is highly overated on this forum, and I am sure to be torn a newbie with that comment! Tear away punters, tear away!!!! Nb - I know there are some that agree, so please back me up when need be!

  On 14/02/2012 at 01:59, Macca said:

Sylvia could , however , become a 'very good' Centreman/Midfielder .

Sylvia isn't an extractor, he isn't a clearance specialist, he's not a "first dibs" midfielder, and he's not creative by hand. Sylvia is very talented, but in a midfield sense he's what Wisbey refers to as a predator. Where Sylvia's strength really lies is in finishing from 50 after a powerful burst, or taking s strong mark in the forward line. He has pace and needs to push up in the midfield to provide good linking options, but I don't see him excelling as a midfielder. As I said, his real benefit is as a finisher.

  On 14/02/2012 at 05:28, Ben-Hur said:

Sylvia isn't an extractor, he isn't a clearance specialist, he's not a "first dibs" midfielder, and he's not creative by hand. Sylvia is very talented, but in a midfield sense he's what Wisbey refers to as a predator. Where Sylvia's strength really lies is in finishing from 50 after a powerful burst, or taking s strong mark in the forward line. He has pace and needs to push up in the midfield to provide good linking options, but I don't see him excelling as a midfielder. As I said, his real benefit is as a finisher.

You make a good point , though I was more summarising Sylvia as a comparison to our other midfielders ( who , as a group , didn't exactly set the world on fire last season ) . I probably should have been more specific but I reckon he's got midfield skills than some think . We'll have to agree to disagree on that one Ben .

I think Neeld will play a number of our players in foreign positions . Why not ? It's not like we're coming from a position of strength .

Change is needed and this bloke Neeld doesn't strike me as the conservative type . The choices for our captains says a lot .

Cheers

  On 14/02/2012 at 05:49, Macca said:

You make a good point , though I was more summarising Sylvia as a comparison to our other midfielders ( who , as a group , didn't exactly set the world on fire last season ) . I probably should have been more specific but I reckon he's got midfield skills than some think . We'll have to agree to disagree on that one Ben .

I think Neeld will play a number of our players in foreign positions . Why not ? It's not like we're coming from a position of strength .

Change is needed and this bloke Neeld doesn't strike me as the conservative type . The choices for our captains says a lot .

Cheers

Always happy to agree to differ, Macster.

Out of interest though, can you name me a genuinely elite mid, past or present, that is solely a "predator" ? The best mids over the last 15* years have in the main been great in close, which is clearly Sylvia's weakness. It doesn't come naturally to him, whereas it does to Gysberts and Trengove. And even those boys need to improve this aspect of their game. By the way, I do want Sylvia rotating through the middle, because he's such a damaging finisher, I just don't see him ever being an elite mid.

*I say 15 years due to how much the game has changed in that time.