As MFC supporters we are used to these names and therefore we are rather biased in this assessment. I could almost guarantee that there's just as many Tigers, Bombers and Roo's supporters out there saying the same thing about their crop of youngsters.

Our hopes now rest with a new coaching group, a new game plan and culture of winning at any cost.

F@&$ I can't wait for Round 1.

Something we never had in the Danniher era and we have built now, which I believe puts us in a good position is our defence. Offence gets you memberships defence gets you premierships.

This is the attitude that brought down Daniher and then Bailey/Connolly. The excuse that our time isn't now, therefore it's fine to lose. Or better still, why have Player X play now if he isn't going to be there in year 201X? Notice how we haven't heard any of this from Neeld and his team? Or the focus on drafting/trading for players who are ready now, not just in five years and 15 kilograms later? Sure, they may be thinking it, but they don't dare speak it in public, or have it prominent in mind of the players and coaches.

When was that ever the attitude of Daniher? It certainly wasn't at the point where he got the sack. Daniher himself said that our premiership window would be from 2006 onward.

And yes it may have been with Bailey.But guess what? He was building the list from the bottom up. Did you expect him to build a great list without bottoming out?

I've got no idea why you have thrown Connolly's name in there.

Daniher himself said that our premiership window would be from 2006 onward.

sadly Neale was very wrong on that point. Bailey picked up the pieces, and for that i give him some cred. It would have been a tough gig.

Its a pity ND didnt have the marvellous intuition of hindsight like some Dland posters have. That was one of NDs flaws. How could he make such incorrect expectations of the future about 2006 back in 2003/2004?

Its a pity ND didnt have the marvellous intuition of hindsight like some Dland posters have. That was one of NDs flaws. How could he make such incorrect expectations of the future about 2006 back in 2003/2004?

Oh, I believe he did.

After 2002 he knew we couldn't compete with Robertson and Bizzell as CHF and CHB respectively.

He attempted to rectify the issue with Miller, Carroll, Holland, et al.

And personally, I hated going to the finals in 2004, 05 and 06 knowing that we couldn't win the whole thing.

On top of the ladder in 04 after 18 rounds and we all came back to earth the next month and then lost to Essendon.

Top three after 13 rounds in 05 only to scrape in forthe opportunity to be smashed by Geelong (and people still think fondly of that Western Bulldogs game! It should be a bittersweet memory people!!)

Again top three after 18 rounds only to have a brave win in an elimination final over St Kilda...

Call me a revisionist, but I went to those final series knowing we were never a chance for the flag, and Daniher knew too IMO.

I'm not entirely certain what my argument is but I am just very tired of non-bittersweet reminiscing to the Daniher years - we were great for 15 rounds and then pathetic.

Who is reminiscing on ND? Definitely flawed as a coach no doubt. And you are right about 2002. The gaps between where we were in 2002 and what the best was were significant. HIs window to correct things was small (access to dract picks/trades). He had to rely mostly on what he had in the list (positives and minuses there) and as you pointed out the performance 2004 to 2006 were fickle. Any coach would realise that there are no certainties in life but he had set himself to be in the window from 2006 onwards. Much changed both within the playing list and with the way football was being played. And you reference to 2004 2005 and 2006 ably demonstrate. I am sure ND knew too that he could not get there certainly by 2005. And when he sought to introduce a new game style in Rd 18(?) of 2006 to counter previous failures against Adelaide the signs were not good.

For the record we went into all those finals with a questionable W/L record, no momentum and significant injuries. i dont think you were Robinson Crusoe there. However I dont see a problem with Coach planning and projecting when his best chance to snag a flag is (a window). Be history has proven him wrong but its hindsight only to be critical of ND for projecting that window

Who is reminiscing on ND? Definitely flawed as a coach no doubt. And you are right about 2002. The gaps between where we were in 2002 and what the best was were significant. HIs window to correct things was small (access to dract picks/trades). He had to rely mostly on what he had in the list (positives and minuses there) and as you pointed out the performance 2004 to 2006 were fickle. Any coach would realise that there are no certainties in life but he had set himself to be in the window from 2006 onwards. Much changed both within the playing list and with the way football was being played. And you reference to 2004 2005 and 2006 ably demonstrate. I am sure ND knew too that he could not get there certainly by 2005. And when he sought to introduce a new game style in Rd 18(?) of 2006 to counter previous failures against Adelaide the signs were not good.

For the record we went into all those finals with a questionable W/L record, no momentum and significant injuries. i dont think you were Robinson Crusoe there. However I dont see a problem with Coach planning and projecting when his best chance to snag a flag is (a window). Be history has proven him wrong but its hindsight only to be critical of ND for projecting that window

I think I am more yelling at the wind, so I used your last line to enable that yelling.

A post in this thread mentioned the virtues of this rebuild (or so I thought) and I immediately went to the resevoir of bittersweet memories in my head that were the reason I was so in favour of 'bottoming' out.

So my argument is slightly parallel to yours, but one thing - we were great for 4 months in all three years and then, with the pressure on the team, collapsed as if we had given all that we could give. Maybe it was all we could give. It did happen three times...

I think the false dawns in the 3 years you speak of reflect the recurring and limiting issues to ND's plan for a window. And the so called rebuild vintage 2002 was more of a tweak. The rebuild following ND's departure was a total one on and off the ground. You know in each of those years 2004-2006 with every glimmer of hope that we saw there was an equal seed of doubt. While the team and coach were flawed and history showed that, on the other hand we did well to get finals given the limitations of the list (much rode on the backs of Neitz, White Yze etc and all had their achilles heel and none were consistent A grade players), the carp facilities we had at Junction Oval, the crippling lack of FD funding and Board room instability that occur during ND's reign. This is not to exonerate ND but what ever card game he was seeking to play, he was not starting with a full deck of options.

I never thought the flag window would open before 2014 at the earliest and you can check my post history. Last year's antics didn't accelerate it. Neeld has the luxury of building on Bailey's foundations. Sellar, Magner and Couch aren't going to win you that flag - Blease, Scully (or his replacement picks if used wisely), Trengove and Gysberts will. Bailey was the fall guy the club needed - he did exactly what was required, Neeld's gig is 100x easier than Bailey's was. The only experienced player I regret us not recruiting is Luke Ball - he'd be captain now and that would be one big problem solved (and the Saints might have beaten the Pies in that drawn GF too!).

Yep. You don't aim to make the team Hard by talking 3-5 year plans.

The mindset of the entire FD must adjust very quickly.

You're very welcome to have your own expectations and I'll look for your hissy fit when we don't win a flag this year.

I expect an incremental increase in our performance over time and hope to win a flag(s) in this cycle. We might be like Hawthorn and win one early or we might be like the Saints and miss our chance.

My expectations have absolutely nothing to do with an expectation that the club will perform to it's maximum potential, i just differ to you as to when that maximum might be better than 17 other clubs.

I never thought the flag window would open before 2014 at the earliest and you can check my post history. Last year's antics didn't accelerate it. Neeld has the luxury on building of Bailey's foundations. Sellar, Magner and Couch aren't going to win you that flag - Blease, Scully (or his replacement picks if used wisely), Trengove and Gysberts will. Bailey was the fall guy the club needed - he did exactly what was required, Neeld's gig is 100x easier than Bailey's was. The only experienced player I regret us not recruiting is Luke Ball - he'd be captain now and that would be one big problem solved (and the Saints might have beaten the Pies in that drawn GF too!).

Yeah, I agree with all of that. And I knew the rebuild would take as long as it is taking...

And I am pretty sure I agreed with you on Ball, or maybe that is a forlorn hope.

He would be incredibly useful right now...

And I am pretty sure I agreed with you on Ball, or maybe that is a forlorn hope.

It was demoralising to see Bailey bashing the long queue of quality experienced players wanting to join us with his "you're not needed here" sign.

Apparently we should've recruited "more experienced types" but it was "no good taking Ball because he didn't want to come to our club" - well he was one we could've made join us.

I have no issue with the Bailey recruiting policy, a few more ready made players would have been better but the big issue was that he and Connolly (in particular when doing special comments on 774) in the media were constantly talking about how the window isn't now and do on. Daniher started talking about clocks.

My point for many years now has always been it is fine to say these things behind closed doors, but don't air them in the public. Neeld hasn't done this and his attitude is to address the problems now, not five years into the future,

Those posters saying Neeld would've insisted on Darling ahead of Cook, would he have insisted on Ball ahead of Tapscott?

We're you insisting on Ball ahead of Tapscott at the time?

It was demoralising to see Bailey bashing the long queue of quality experienced players wanting to join us with his "you're not needed here" sign. Apparently we should've recruited "more experienced types" but it was "no good taking Ball because he didn't want to come to our club" - well he was one we could've made join us.

I remember now!

I won't be able to find it but I remember my "I refuse to let Luke Ball dictate our recruiting policy" argument.

That was a good argument...

Yeah, that was a balls up.

Neeld is not starting from the depth of where Connolly and Bailey started. Neeld is still on his honeymoon at the moment and definitely on Dland. Bailey got the same early break until the reality set in of extent of our list problems. I wonder how the Board will light up if we start badly this year.

The message being publicised by MFC came from Jim, Schwab, Cuddles and Bailey ad nauseam....patience, youth and development and that maturity of talented kids to mature AFL players takes time and there are no easy short cuts. And given some of the beltings we received and the post mortem reviews it was both reasonable and plausible to "educate" MFC stakeholders and the general public about whats happening. The Club would have looked uber foolish had it said we shooting for the flag this year (any of 2008 to 2011) when every man and his half sensible dog realised the journey we had to take. And it would extremely naive to think that because we did not publicise any flag plans that it was all part of the "accepting mediocrity" culture at MFC.

In my view, it is revisionism in the extreme to think that in 2007/2008, when the club was on the ropes, we embarked on a rebuild which entailed the premiership window theoretically commencing in 2015 and being thoroughly uncompetitive in the meantime.

I have followed this club as intently as most others here, and I recall the methodology being to bottom out a little in order to secure some really good young talent and clean out some of the old guard, whilst retaining the existing talent on the list. Conveniently, some here are now seemingly pushing out the premiership window a little to, hopefully, allow certain picks to come on (eg Cook), even if it means not peaking the list whilst the likes of Jamar (AA), Green (near AA), Sylvia (should be AA) and Moloney (unlucky not to be AA) are running around at their peak. IMO we don't currently have enough talent not to take advantage of these players in their prime.

If we're now talking about our premiership window commencing 2015 (which seems speculative in the extreme), that means our initial rebuild didn't work or we didn't recruit players who would complement our existing talent - something teams like the Swans and the Pies would never allow to occur.

In short, IMO we didn't need to bottom out to be in this position now - fringe top 8 with no guarantee of being top 4 the year after. That's why I reckon Neeld is recruiting mature bodied players - he's trying to accelerate the development of this list. We simply don't have forever to incubate young talent - the rubber has to hit the road, and we have to start winning more games than we lose. This year.

Ron, I don't really agree with your revisionism in the extreme opinion. Well, not in my case anyway and IIRC not in the opinions with some of the more knowledgable posters here. Back in 2007-08-09, I think the majority of posters thought it was going to be a long haul back with the state of the list then. During that period 2013-14 may have been mentioned briefly by some at the earliest. At the time though there was more concern for survival than anything else. But I think by 2010, it's my contention that the popular belief was 2014-15 would be the time our list etc matures for the window you speak of. And the consensus was that there would be plenty of inconsistent results or "humps" along the way including uncompetitive thrashings given the nature of our list in 2010-11.

old55, is right. Bailey was our fall guy, during his involvement of 4 years the list changed dramatically since ND's exit, he turned over one of the oldest lists gradually to becoming the youngest and Neeld will now benefit somewhat from what has transpired, over the next few years.

I think part of the rebuild has worked, but it's still evolving and I think with Neeld's touch (and I agree with the addition of some mature bodied players) he's trying to compliment some of the good work already done with some additions, but importantly from his experience (at Collingwood, etc) in developing a stronger and more willing line-up.

Neeld is not starting from the depth of where Connolly and Bailey started. Neeld is still on his honeymoon at the moment and definitely on Dland. Bailey got the same early break until the reality set in of extent of our list problems. I wonder how the Board will light up if we start badly this year.

The message being publicised by MFC came from Jim, Schwab, Cuddles and Bailey ad nauseam....patience, youth and development and that maturity of talented kids to mature AFL players takes time and there are no easy short cuts. And given some of the beltings we received and the post mortem reviews it was both reasonable and plausible to "educate" MFC stakeholders and the general public about whats happening. The Club would have looked uber foolish had it said we shooting for the flag this year (any of 2008 to 2011) when every man and his half sensible dog realised the journey we had to take. And it would extremely naive to think that because we did not publicise any flag plans that it was all part of the "accepting mediocrity" culture at MFC.

This is the problem, the club didn't have to say anything. They shouldn't have said anything about "Premiership windows", nor should they say "we think we can win the flag" or whatever the case may be.

Melbourne members and supporters (and rest of the football world) do not need to have their hands held through every step of the process, that's why we elect a Board to represent us.

Neeld could turn out to be a rubbish coach, but least at this stage he isn't making stupid predictions or trying to soften the blow should the team perform badly.

You're very welcome to have your own expectations and I'll look for your hissy fit when we don't win a flag this year.

I expect an incremental increase in our performance over time and hope to win a flag(s) in this cycle. We might be like Hawthorn and win one early or we might be like the Saints and miss our chance.

My expectations have absolutely nothing to do with an expectation that the club will perform to it's maximum potential, i just differ to you as to when that maximum might be better than 17 other clubs.

I do not expect to win a flag in 2012, but i do expect the club to actually start believing that the MFC can and will win a flag now. A 5 year plan can also be a crutch to lean on. Seize the day Now and build.

This is the problem, the club didn't have to say anything. They shouldn't have said anything about "Premiership windows", nor should they say "we think we can win the flag" or whatever the case may be.

Of course tthe Club had to say something in response to some awful on field performance. To do otherwise would leave them open to glib suggestions that the Club are happy with [XX] goal drubbings and they would be open to ridicule if they did not provide a measured assessment of the timeline. I not sure that i can recall they mentioned "Premiership windows" or give a year when they think they can win the flag. They have given broad indicatives of when they want to appear in finals and that the players wont start to play consistent mature AFL football until they have a benchmark 50 games under their belt (For some it moght be more for some it might be less). But you can join the dots.....

Melbourne members and supporters (and rest of the football world) do not need to have their hands held through every step of the process, that's why we elect a Board to represent us.

Unfortunately they do and from some of the posts on this thread from other posters further evidence this. The lack of patience in the younger players and the overambitions goals of some supporters have been brought crashing down to earth becasue they have ignored just what the reality of the list and fot ahead of themselves. And surely supporters, stakeholders and football public deserve to understand the broad plans that may have been approved by the Board from people like Stynes, Schwab and other designated FD people. Its unrealistic to think people will just play ostrich particular if on field performances are times well below par.

Neeld could turn out to be a rubbish coach, but least at this stage he isn't making stupid predictions or trying to soften the blow should the team perform badly.

He is still on his honeymoon and has not been tested as a coach. He has not coached a game and has not had to face off a loss....yet. Its too early to make statements Its been easy to date. He coos coos the supporters with a couple of broad generalisations and every one laps it up. He does not have to make predictions. He is still new as a Coach and does not have the torch (yet) on his belly. Assess him 2 years in. He might be a great coach in the making or he might be a dud or even somewhere in between.

I do not expect to win a flag in 2012, but i do expect the club to actually start believing that the MFC can and will win a flag now. A 5 year plan can also be a crutch to lean on. Seize the day Now and build.

How do you know the Club dont believe that they can win a flag? I would think the FD know what it takes to win a flag and have the good sense to know when that time is. And guess what the cornerstone of any good plan is?......." Seize the day Now and build".

How do you know the Club dont believe that they can win a flag? I would think the FD know what it takes to win a flag and have the good sense to know when that time is. And guess what the cornerstone of any good plan is?......." Seize the day Now and build".

I would hope the FD believe they can win every game we play. They are well paid to do that job.

My above post was for those on here who still hide behind the 3-5 year plan, that seems to stretch further each year. We bottomed out in 07-08 and i accepted that. But those days are over. We have the list we are going to get, bar yearly tweaks. This list must learn and demand of each other winning, and if the team loses...work out why.

We must never fall into the Richmond "5 year plans that have reached 32 years thus far" abyss.

The work done over the last 6 months gives me some confidence.

My above post was for those on here who still hide behind the 3-5 year plan, that seems to stretch further each year.

What 3-5 year plan ?

What 3-5 year plan ?

Go back a few pages and read....the window gets further away. 2015 was the last one i noticed. 4 more years until we have a serious crack...

Go back a few pages and read....the window gets further away. 2015 was the last one i noticed. 4 more years until we have a serious crack...

It only appears to get further away to you who somehow thought it was closer in the first place

I would hope the FD believe they can win every game we play. They are well paid to do that job.

My above post was for those on here who still hide behind the 3-5 year plan, that seems to stretch further each year. We bottomed out in 07-08 and i accepted that. But those days are over. We have the list we are going to get, bar yearly tweaks. This list must learn and demand of each other winning, and if the team loses...work out why.

We must never fall into the Richmond "5 year plans that have reached 32 years thus far" abyss.

The work done over the last 6 months gives me some confidence.

I would rather hope that the FD properly understand the strengths and weakneses of our players against the oppositions players to undertake the best performance possible. Thats what they get paid for. If you want people who want naive believes then you can get them anywhere and they are cheap as chips. They wont deliver anything but at leastv they go in with belief.

Who are these unknown people that "hide behind a 3 to 5 year" as an escape clause for achieving success? Can you name them? They could be ones that have accepting mediocrity for too long. Wow.

We actually bottomed out in 2007 to 2010. In this period the turnover in the list result in the list at start of 2011 being the youngest list in 5 years and marginally older than Gold Coast. You have continually plied the clap trap about short term bottoming out when the exact opposite has been demonstrated. "Iceberg What Iceberg?"

Next year with have 2 PP picks in a strong draft. We will do more than tweak the list. And what do you think the FD have been doing all these years if you are now suggesting that "This list must learn and demand of each other winning, and if the team loses...work out why." Its amazing what your implying since you would gladly have Bailey back.

It only appears to get further away to you who somehow thought it was closer in the first place

Indeed.