I sense he misses the point that teh talent is also off the field, in the likes of Misson and full coaching . that sthis helps influence a candidate . This is al lpart of the package players look at now, not just the money but the FD structure, how they will be supported and mentored/coached etc.

Post #21. You should read more.

While I like the concept, its hard to put say with any certainty what impact the debt repaid has had an impact. There would be other issues that could have handed bigger impact such as the quality of the list. etc.

If we were still relying on the salary cap to keep us going, Misson & Clark wouldn't have even taken our phone calls!

Rock Solid comment?

Rock Solid comment?

Yep absolutely!!

Yep absolutely!!

Then we should play no reliance on it. Thanks for clearing that up.

Then we should play no reliance on it. Thanks for clearing that up.

Please yourself Rhino. But it was because of our financial state that both Judd & or Ball wanted nothig to do with this club. Now the wheel is turning slowwly and results are starting to aeriously change.

That said we are still short one solid defender IMO, but then so are most clubs. We can make the top 8 next year given the right attitude is in place.

But it was because of our financial state that both Judd & or Ball wanted nothig to do with this club.

Another rock solid comment that has no factual basis to it.

You cant help yourself with the BS. You get found out for it every time. Why do you do it?

Both Judd and Ball had made decisions to move to other Clubs independently of what MFC did or did not have in the bank.

The Judd due diligence was a charade and he had already "chosen" Carlton well before he did the review of other Clubs.

All Ball wanted to do was to go to Collingwood as his best chance to win a flag with his injury riddled body. He chose not to make himself available and would not speak to a number of clubs including Melbourne and Essendon.

And it is humorous you talking of debt WYL.

You have just re iterated my post!! Both judd & ball went to carlton and collingwood for financial security. It was obvious to all. Not BS Rhino. If we had courted them last weekend it could have been very different. Why do you continually downplay the signifigance of the debt eradication??

Luke ball's injury riddled body!!! He hasn't missed a game since leaving. That was such a furphy, i never believed it. Just showed how useless the Aints really are!!

I think Clark was the best available KPF available during trade week. But i'm yet to be sold on whether he is actually a good KPF worth the Salary we've given him.

Hopefully he is!

You have just re iterated my post!! Both judd & ball went to carlton and collingwood for financial security. It was obvious to all. Not BS Rhino. If we had courted them last weekend it could have been very different. Why do you continually downplay the signifigance of the debt eradication??

Luke ball's injury riddled body!!! He hasn't missed a game since leaving. That was such a furphy, i never believed it. Just showed how useless the Aints really are!!

No I didnt at all. You made the comment that "But it was because of our financial state that both Judd & or Ball wanted nothing to do with this club." Judd and Ball chose other Clubs and had agreed deals with their respective Clubs before MFC came sniffing. They did not reject MFC due to the debt it had. MFC did not have a chance in hell of getting either player. They sort deals with other Clubs that made financially attractive deals for them and provided them with the best opportunity to snare a flag. Ball won a flag and Judd is pressing. I dont know why you need to dramatise and make things up. It only makes your naivety on these topics more amusing than before.

If we courted Judd and Ball under circumstances without the debt...... then guess what? They has already signed with other Clubs. We could never have come close to equally the $$$$$ Judd was able to extract from Visy and Ball would not have his premiership.

If Ball was so fit why did he have to submit a full medical check (including his managed OP disposition) to Collingwood as part of the negotiations?? The furphy is your melodrama by overstating the impact of a concept you have established on here that you dont understand

You have just re iterated my post!! Both judd & ball went to carlton and collingwood for financial security. It was obvious to all. Not BS Rhino. If we had courted them last weekend it could have been very different. Why do you continually downplay the signifigance of the debt eradication??

Luke ball's injury riddled body!!! He hasn't missed a game since leaving. That was such a furphy, i never believed it. Just showed how useless the Aints really are!!

Played in 3 GF's including the winning 2010 replay.

Yep injury riddled thats for sure.

I dont know why you need to dramatise and make things up. It only makes your naivety on these topics more amusing than before.

Perhaps he's being a little dramatic, but at least he doesn't insult other posters' intelligence.

If we courted Judd and Ball under circumstances without the debt...... then guess what? They has already signed with other Clubs. We could never have come close to equally the $$$$$ Judd was able to extract from Visy and Ball would not have his premiership.

But if we could have offered them more, they wouldn't have been so hasty to sign with other teams. The reason Judd was "already signed with another club" (as you put it) is because that team could offer him more money than we could (WYL's point). It seems to me that you are both making the same point, although you are doing it with a little less tact, as is common for you.

If Ball was so fit why did he have to submit a full medical check (including his managed OP disposition) to Collingwood as part of the negotiations?? The furphy is your melodrama by overstating the impact of a concept you have established on here that you dont understand

Because Collingwood aren't idiots. Ball had developed osteo pubis when he was younger, and the Pies wanted to make sure he was recovered from that. Any sane club would have done the same. Also, there you go insulting other posters' intelligence again. When debating, one can make their point (which on this occasion is quite similar to your "opponent's") without resorting to petty insults.

No I didnt at all. You made the comment that "But it was because of our financial state that both Judd & or Ball wanted nothing to do with this club." Judd and Ball chose other Clubs and had agreed deals with their respective Clubs before MFC came sniffing. They did not reject MFC due to the debt it had. MFC did not have a chance in hell of getting either player. They sort deals with other Clubs that made financially attractive deals for them and provided them with the best opportunity to snare a flag. Ball won a flag and Judd is pressing. I dont know why you need to dramatise and make things up. It only makes your naivety on these topics more amusing than before.

If we courted Judd and Ball under circumstances without the debt...... then guess what? They has already signed with other Clubs. We could never have come close to equally the $$$$$ Judd was able to extract from Visy and Ball would not have his premiership.

If Ball was so fit why did he have to submit a full medical check (including his managed OP disposition) to Collingwood as part of the negotiations?? The furphy is your melodrama by overstating the impact of a concept you have established on here that you dont understand

Ball & Ju$$ didn't come near the MFC because we were not cashed up. What is there to not understand?

Melodramatic is nowhere in my thinking. The october 2011 MFC model could have had a much better crack at both because of our infinitely better financial position.

As i said before why else would Dave Misson have been enticed here??

Sometimes i wonder if you actually want this club to have success Rhino??? What would you talk about & who would you get stuck into??

Ball & Ju$$ didn't come near the MFC because we were not cashed up. What is there to not understand?

Proof of that actually being the case?? Or is this just another rock solid comment made without being able to be substantiated beyond your opinion. We could not have matched Judd's salary package and premiership window and still cant. Ball only wanted to go to Collingwood. He rejected any overtures to talk with any other Club and did not give any reasons why against the other Clubs. You are taking two unconnected issues and trying to build a plausible cases without the facts.

Melodramatic is nowhere in my thinking. The october 2011 MFC model could have had a much better crack at both because of our infinitely better financial position.

As i said before why else would Dave Misson have been enticed here??

You are once again trying to build a plausible cases without any facts. And Dave Misson's decision is independent of the decisions made by Luke Ball. Different roles, different objectives.

Sometimes i wonder if you actually want this club to have success Rhino??? What would you talk about & who would you get stuck into??

Why because i dont put a blindfold and say gee WYL you havent any facts on the issue but you're right.

Like all supporters we all want success, I just dont substitute melodrama and make believe for actual truths.

But if we could have offered them more, they wouldn't have been so hasty to sign with other teams. The reason Judd was "already signed with another club" (as you put it) is because that team could offer him more money than we could (WYL's point). It seems to me that you are both making the same point, although you are doing it with a little less tact, as is common for you.

Well done. You missed the point. We couldn't offer him more money and we could not have matched the counter offer Judd agreed to Carlton's deal well before the DD period for other Clubs every started. Given the salary cap rules, how could we have ever topped the combined Carlton/ Visy package?? Its an outrageous package that would blow any Clubs salary cap sky high. We could not have gone close to that deal debt or no debt. How the AFL allowed that one through the net is another story. Nor could we offer the flag window the other Clubs were offering.

Because Collingwood aren't idiots. Ball had developed osteo pubis when he was younger, and the Pies wanted to make sure he was recovered from that. Any sane club would have done the same.

A better effort and agree. Good go tell the furphy hunter.

Well done. You missed the point. We couldn't offer him more money and we could not have matched the counter offer Judd agreed to Carlton's deal well before the DD period for other Clubs every started. Given the salary cap rules, how could we have ever topped the combined Carlton/ Visy package?? Its an outrageous package that would blow any Clubs salary cap sky high. We could not have gone close to that deal debt or no debt. How the AFL allowed that one through the net is another story. Nor could we offer the flag window the other Clubs were offering.

Perhaps we never could top Carlton's offer. But ifwe could have, he would have come to us. Ergo, our financial situation was one of the key reasons we didn't pick him up. I don't see that there is any basis for your claim that I have somehow "missed the point," when it seems clear that we are talking about the financial basis for Chris Judd's decision to go to Carlton. WYL and I have both said that our poor financial state (a team's over-inflated salary cap is obviously a huge aspect of this) contributed to our inability to attract Chris Judd to our club. You also have not taken into account the fact that if Judd thought there was any possiblity that we could have outbid Carlton, he would have been less hasty in his decision to sign with them. It was well-known that we were in no position to be making outlandish bids for any player, so Judd had no reason to go searching anywhere else for a higher offer.

I have said more than I meant to, but it comes down to this. Chris Judd agreed to go to Carlton because he knew no other club had the financial power to pick him up that Carlton did. If we had that power, he may have come to us. Therefore, our poor financial situation at the time led to our inability to attract him to our Club.

Correct..i don't know why there is any disagreement here. $$$ talk and back 2-3 years ago we didn't have any of our own. Now at least we are breathing unassisted. Ju$$ visited when we were in the rodent infested junction oval. AAMI park would be much better to sell. Sorry if you disagree Rhino....

You still miss it and you're wrong. We could not matched the Carl/Visy offer through the salary cap. And no I dont think he would have come to us even if we could have come close to the money. Carlton were ahead of us in so many areas and still are. His choices with Carlton would appear to have been a number of reasons including an outrageous package. You can also see them as stronger in facilities, list strength and having the Captaincy on table. We nor any Club could have matched that total package. Its a fantasy to claim that the debt burden was seperating us from Ball and Judd. Given what was on offer from Carlton he did not need to consider any other Clubs. MFC's debt positions was irrelevant to these outcomes. Judd went to Carlton because Carlton offered him a once in a lfetime deal. Judd was not worried about other Clubs given the DD farce he went through.

Correct..i don't know why there is any disagreement here. $$$ talk and back 2-3 years ago we didn't have any of our own. Now at least we are breathing unassisted. Ju$$ visited when we were in the rodent infested junction oval. AAMI park would be much better to sell. Sorry if you disagree Rhino....

How would we have matched the Carlton/Visy bid? We couldnt.

All player payments (except Judd's) go through the salary cap.

He had agreed to join Carlton four months prior to doing his DD tour.

We are in a better position than we were 4 years but that better position would not have been enought to snare Judd or Ball

Im glad we didnt get Ball or Judd. The team wasnt ready for them and we wouldve had one of the greats of the game chasing jumpers all day. Its delusional to think Judd wouldve made us a top 8 side. sure we may have one more games but in the end it wouldnt have put the dees in a finals winning position. A waste of a unique talent and a waste of dollars. Now the team is ready to bring in elite talent in preparation for a launch at a premiership

Is this topic still regarding our potential window?

If so, premiers 2013!