Threads merged.

Time. Remember Geelong in 2006.

Yes i do, and i am not reminded of Geelong 2006...we have no fight against sides who UNDERSTAND pressure.

This is what concerns me.

A good coach brings good assistants - not the reverse!

Good assistants go where the money is. Sean Wellman ring a bell??? Scott Burns ring a bell??? I could go on...

No need for poor attempts at insults 36DD - look at the big picture and see my earlier comment. Good to see you are recognising the need for change however.

It would be a sad day when only money motivated good operators in any business 36DD.

It would be a sad day when only money motivated good operators in any business 36DD.

The MFC has some Cash...We should be looking for the best.

From Monday morning.

It would be a sad day when only money motivated good operators in any business 36DD.

Idealistic view of the world, unfortunately what you say very rarely is reality.

I do not want to hammer Dean Bailey...But the facts are...We SMASH bottom teams...BUT get SMASHED by all the rest.

We have a major problem, so how do we fix it??

Major problem?

I think it's just a very accurate indication of how good we are at the moment.

We beat teams that are worse than us.

We lose to teams that are better than us.

That's not an indication of our ceiling though - we just need to keep developing the side and understand the natural progression of a football side in this game.

It's all very simple, but for some reason when we have a loss everyone seems to lose their [censored] and forget these basic principles.

...

We beat teams that are worse than us.

We lose to teams that are better than us.

That's not an indication of our ceiling though - we just need to keep developing the side and understand the natural progression of a football side in this game.

...

Or - when we're allowed to play our game, we do really well.

When we're not allowed to play our game, we get absolutely smashed because nothing whatsoever is ever done about it. Ever.

The teams that beat us beat us in exactly the same fashion. We learn nothing from one smashing to the next. We have no contingency plans for what to do if we are confronted by forward pressure; for how to get midfield drive if Scully is countered (all the top teams know that Scully is our most damaging mid and he's the one who needs their top tagger); what to do if we're getting outmuscled; what to do if bombing high to the square isn't working (we were bombing just as much in the last quarter as in the first); what to do if we're caught ut with a mismatch in defence (too small or too tall); what do to if a seriously damaging mid or two on the other team starts to dominate. All of these things were deliberately planned by Eade, and we did absolutely nothing.

We make no changes, just keep hammering away at the same old things & find that the harder we try, the worse it gets. Which is right when the opposition coach knows he's got us and ... voila! Last quarter blowout.

The problem is that every loss looks the same and nothing is ever done to stop it happening next time.

It needs more than hanging tough and just waiting for time. That's what poor clubs do; good clubs make their own future.

Guys I have said this before

I have a number of friends who tell me that our players are nowhere as good as we think.

They say no amount of waiting will change the fact that our playing stock are not good enough to get any higher than the centre of the ladder.

I am beginning to believe them.

How come we can beat Richmond but get smashed by Footscray?

Beat Adelaide but get smashed by West Coast?

The theme here is we are not good enough to beat the better sides i.e. 7 - 8 top teams.

It might be time to stop blaming the coaches, the age of the players, poor umpiring etc.

And consider the fact that we are not good enough.

END OF STORY

Guys I have said this before

I have a number of friends who tell me that our players are nowhere as good as we think.

They say no amount of waiting will change the fact that our playing stock are not good enough to get any higher than the centre of the ladder.

I am beginning to believe them.

How come we can beat Richmond but get smashed by Footscray?

Beat Adelaide but get smashed by West Coast?

The theme here is we are not good enough to beat the better sides i.e. 7 - 8 top teams.

It might be time to stop blaming the coaches, the age of the players, poor umpiring etc.

And consider the fact that we are not good enough.

END OF STORY

More the fool you for believing that.

Carry on.

More the fool you for believing that.

Carry on.

So what does your confidence flow from!

loyal supporter blindness!

Why is it we can beat the bottom teams but get killed by the top half teams not just lose killed?

Not all wisdom flows from Dees supporters

there are actually some people who can look at our players objectively.

and guess what AB we are far from the top 6 teams.

Cannot hold a candle to any of them.

God forbid I am saying this we cannot get close to an honourable loss against any of the better sides.

Why?

Our new crop including Frawley, Grimes, Trengove, Watts, McKenzie, Tapscott and Scully aren't poor at all, rather the opposite, but I think its unreasonable to expect to make the 8 if you can't win a game at Etihad. (Interestingly we have two more there for the season West Coast and Richmond TBC).

What would have most peoples expectations have been about our chances in these two games at the beginning of the year I wonder? I know what mine were.

We should be showing improvement now, with the playing roster we have and we should be winning games at Etihad.

To have not have won one game there under the current Stewardship does nothing at all to enhance their reputation.

Our new crop including Frawley, Grimes, Trengove, Watts, McKenzie, Tapscott and Scully aren't poor at all, rather the opposite, but I think its unreasonable to expect to make the 8 if you can't win a game at Etihad. (Interestingly we have two more there for the season West Coast and Richmond TBC).

What would have most peoples expectations have been about our chances in these two games at the beginning of the year I wonder? I know what mine were.

We should be showing improvement now, with the playing roster we have and we should be winning games at Etihad.

To have not have won one game there under the current Stewardship does nothing at all to enhance their reputation.

I don't disagree with most of what you say but it takes 22 players to be a good team.

6 - 7 is not enough.

IMO we do not have enough good players irrespective of their ages.

(Interestingly we have two more there for the season West Coast and Richmond TBC).

Richmond? Did I miss something?

Richmond? Did I miss something?

I think I missed it too

OD is right in that we were not as good as some thought.

But we still have some great talent all over the park.

The only problem is that the talent is young and can only do so much - their much older colleagues continue to let them down with their insipid or frontrunning footy.

I don't like using ratings but it does highlight where we are coming from.

Our leaders are in 2010:

Moloney - B player on the field (A+ in the centre I will say)

Jones - B (pushed up through consistent performances)

Green - C (B+ last year)

Rivers - C+ (B some weeks, C other weeks)

Sylvia - B (He's the ABC of the Dees, changes weekly)

Davey - D (solid B last few years)

Jamar - B (A last year, has been injured)

Grimes - D (B, but injured)

These are challenged footy players trying to lead a bunch of kids and they cannot do it.

OD is right when it comes to our senior players - we do overrate them (and their leadership capabilities).

Other teams have a stronger core of senior players, and we are finding out that those that lived in the shadows of McDonald, Neitz, White, Yze, et al. are finding it difficult out of the shadow.

OD is right in that we were not as good as some thought.

But we still have some great talent all over the park.

The only problem is that the talent is young and can only do so much - their much older colleagues continue to let them down with their insipid or frontrunning footy.

I don't like using ratings but it does highlight where we are coming from.

Our leaders are in 2010:

Moloney - B player on the field (A+ in the centre I will say)

Jones - B (pushed up through consistent performances)

Green - C (B+ last year)

Rivers - C+ (B some weeks, C other weeks)

Sylvia - B (He's the ABC of the Dees, changes weekly)

Davey - D (solid B last few years)

Jamar - B (A last year, has been injured)

Grimes - D (B, but injured)

These are challenged footy players trying to lead a bunch of kids and they cannot do it.

OD is right when it comes to our senior players - we do overrate them (and their leadership capabilities).

Other teams have a stronger core of senior players, and we are finding out that those that lived in the shadows of McDonald, Neitz, White, Yze, et al. are finding it difficult out of the shadow.

Thank you rpfc.

Why is it so hard for us to except that a number of our players are not as good as we thought this time last year.

Apologies my old aging eyes "without glasses" misread my KFC footy fixture which states (in print that gets smaller as time passes) Richmond play "Nth" Melbourne in the last round of the season, so hopefully we only have more game at that rotten joint.

Major problem?

I think it's just a very accurate indication of how good we are at the moment.

We beat teams that are worse than us.

We lose to teams that are better than us.

That's not an indication of our ceiling though - we just need to keep developing the side and understand the natural progression of a football side in this game.

It's all very simple, but for some reason when we have a loss everyone seems to lose their [censored] and forget these basic principles.

We don't just lose to teams better than us, we get thrashed - that is the issue. Further, as I have stated elsewhere, our record away from the MCG under DB's tenue is abysmal - 3 wins only in four years.

When things get tought, we play with no ticker. The facts are there for all to see. New approach needed.

We don't just lose to teams better than us, we get thrashed - that is the issue. Further, as I have stated elsewhere, our record away from the MCG under DB's tenue is abysmal - 3 wins only in four years.

When things get tought, we play with no ticker. The facts are there for all to see. New approach needed.

Surely the players have to take some of that blame?

Bailey will fall if this doesn't improve no doubt but what happens to the failed Green captaincy?

Or the failed Leadership Group?

Or the failure that is the performance of our senior players - the ones 'that play with no ticker when things get tough'?

Is it the approach or the players?

OD says it's the players - they are not as good as we thought.

This year he is dead right.

If you are over 24 and playing for Melbourne, you are mentally weak, you have poor leadership skills, and bad body language. You play with heart when the team is firing and lose your passion when it gets difficult.

Bailey may go, but him leaving doesn't remove the problem.

It just gives the senior players one less excuse for their pathetic displays.

We don't just lose to teams better than us, we get thrashed - that is the issue. Further, as I have stated elsewhere, our record away from the MCG under DB's tenue is abysmal - 3 wins only in four years.

When things get tought, we play with no ticker. The facts are there for all to see. New approach needed.

Jack Grimes said yesterday on TAC Future Stars that it was a mental thing. Sometimes we don't turn up to play to the level required.

What I think he really means is that SOME players let the team down on a continual basis with their mental application.

Given that when we play poorly we usually struggle with clearances and contested footy and have a low tackle count.

Who then in this team are the perennial culprits. Who in the team lets us down when the opposition puts their foot on the pedal and turns the screws. When the pressure is applied who are the turnover kings, who goes missing and doesn't take responsibility for the team effort. Who stops doing the one percenters.

These [censored] poor efforts have been going on for so long it's endemic in the group. Who then needs to be weeded out of this group to stop the disease.

It was happening when Davey,Bail,Tapscott,Spencer, Jetta and Grimes were in the team and it is now happening even with the inclusion of the new kids in Howe and Nicholson.

So who are the culprits.

It can't be Trengove, Scully or McKenzie in the midfield. Not Frawley down back or Howe up forward.

Is it Moloney, Gysberts, Sylvia and Greens lack of 2nd and 3rd efforts. Is it Bennell and Morton who skirt around the outside and don't provide enough pressure. Is Jones a culprit as he continually turns the ball over with errant handpassess or holding the ball.

Remember this has been happening for so long no matter what the makeup of the team has been. This says to me that their must be 1 or 2 or 3 players in this side that always let the team down when the blowtorch is applied by the opposition.

Do you think I am wrong when I name, Jones, Maloney, Sylvia and Green as possible suspects. The other obvious ones are Bennell, Morton and Jurrah however when these players weren't in the team it was still happening.

It has to be players that are always selected in the team. What about Garland and Rivers, they are easily outmuscled.

We have to isolate these players,send them to Casey or eradicate them from the team.

When we micro analyse this team who is contageuos and affecting the rest of the group and what is the antidote.

Your thoughts.

Now is the time to rid ourselves of the disease.

I have to trust the football clubs decision as to who coach’s and as such have to trust the coach. But to have only beaten two Victorian teams in four years that trust is stretched to the limit. It looks like we go out to win the game but not beat the opposition i.e. they tag us out of the game we don’t try and do the same. I don’t expect to beat the top team just yet “nice to beat one of them now and again”. but that middle rung of North, Dogs etc we just have to beat. But like I said at the start I just have to trust that the football club is going in the right direction. I don’t want to go though another five year building plan.

It's all midfiled based . I dont think the backs and forwards are doing a terrible job ( although the forwards were terrible in tackles earlier in the year ).The approach we have taken is to play our own game ,with the inherent risks of these all or nothing surges through the middle . I can forgive Jurrah for waiting outside the packs because I think he is a genuine forward who's judgement must be trusted on when to go into space .I would like to see him make more tackles per game but we will see .

JB is getting blamed for our losses but he is lightning quick and being played out of position - he know where the goals are . .

Morton is harder for me to be nice about just yet- walking on thin ice with supporters and probably the coaches also .

Getting back to the midfield-Most clubs have harder bodies around the ball whilst we have Scully ,Trengrove ,Gysberts and McKenzie making up a midfiled with Jamar/ Moloney .

Obviously a lot of talent on paper .

Scully Trengrove ,Grimes ,McKenzie ,Gysberts ,Jetta ,Bennell etc are still young and Must be persevered with until they grow into men .

Green needs a run on ball .

FORWARDS

Bennell with Flash and LJ .

Watts ,Maritn /Gawn ,Jetta /Bennell

Backs

Frawley ,Garland ,Rivers ,Grimes ,Tapscott ,Nicholson/Bate.

I'd play the three talls .

You cant blame Maloney-B+F for sure this year .

Against bigger bodies in the midfield I'd employ Tapscott ,Bate ,Maloney ,Green ,Sylvia etc because if we get pushed away at bounces we aint never gonna get it forward or run it out of the back .

Green to the midfield . I think it would work .

Unfortunately Gysberts is the weak link when we get thrashed , as is Greeny /Jurrah who go cold up front .

This thread started off as a discussion about coaches ......... and its finished up as a discussion about the use of sports science and the interchange bench.Funnily enough, I reckon its about right - because on field success is becoming more and more about the ability of a club to put super-fit - strong and fast - athletes on the field week in week out than it is about the coaching talent of one man.

Is Luke Ball( who couldn't kick more than 35 metres at St Kilda) now able to snap goals from 45 meters out on the boundary line because Malthouse is a better coach than Lyon? Is Simon Buckley now able to string games together because Malthouse is a better coach than Bailey?

Our young players - Watts, Howe, McKenzie, Trengove, Scully, Nicholson and etc - are all developing under Bailey. Why disrupt that process now?

If there is to be a change - then it should happen at the end of the season and not before...... and if there is to be a change it should take into account the ability to drive/coordinate the whole coaching team - including the player conditioning team.