Martin is getting his hand on the ball a lot but still needs to learn to direct to red and blue jumper. A bit of work there for the ruck coach.

I would like to see him up forward to take some marks and free up Jurrah.

I wonder if he might be gawn for next week.

Fair enough. As per previous discussions, the guy has an amazing leap, presence and pace. He is lacking in the footy 'smarts'. Whether he won't listen, the coaches can't coach him, or he refuses to listen to instructions, his progress has been lacklustre. I want him to become more intimidating and block more to protect his on-ballers. Learn to handball to a better user of the ball who is running next to him and run hard to get back in defence to fill a zone. At the moment, he's getting cheap games through necessity, rather than progression.

Ah, OK, that could come from a player who was considered elite as a baketballer so would have grest hands by necessity. So maybe he's trusting his athleticism and decision making too much, more than required by the coaches,,,,,Or, maybe he's been told by the coaches to take the game on and 'trust your instincts',,, but maybe he's making errors? either way this is an 'development' year for our players, and as such, you'ld be hoping they take risks and learn from their mistakes.

As a ruckman he is inexperienced and as an AFL footballer he is as well. So all in all, I feel pretty happy with him as long as he keeps this attitude of really having a crack. We don't have anyone more mature at present with Jamar out, and when the Russian comes back in I don't think we'll play both Gawn & Russian in the same side just yet.

Fair enough. As per previous discussions, the guy has an amazing leap, presence and pace. He is lacking in the footy 'smarts'. Whether he won't listen, the coaches can't coach him, or he refuses to listen to instructions, his progress has been lacklustre. I want him to become more intimidating and block more to protect his on-ballers. Learn to handball to a better user of the ball who is running next to him and run hard to get back in defence to fill a zone. At the moment, he's getting cheap games through necessity, rather than progression.

For the third week in a row, Martin was our second highest clearance winner, beaten only by Sylvia. He also had the third highest contested possession count behind Sylvia and Green.

So unless you have some actual hard evidence to support your rubbishing of someone who is developing rapidly, I suggest you stop before you find yourself further up sh*t creek without a paddle.

I think he is more effective at this age than what Jamar was at the same age.

Martin averages more marks, more kicks and more handballs than Jamar over his career.

Now I'm not saying Martin is anywhere near the level of Mark Jamar, but two years ago was the first time in his career Russian broke through the 5 kicks a match barrier!

For the third week in a row, Martin was our second highest clearance winner, beaten only by Sylvia. He also had the third highest contested possession count behind Sylvia and Green.

So unless you have some actual hard evidence to support your rubbishing of someone who is developing rapidly, I suggest you stop before you find yourself further up sh*t creek without a paddle.

So many players over the years have these stats bandied about them, but guess what? The opposition let them get their hands on the ball as it won't hurt them. When has Stef hit a moving forward with a pass? Or a leading player? Check the replays....

I could respond as rudely as you, that's so easy, but I chose not to.

Forwards...we have forwards ??? Would love a dollar for every time I glance to our forward arc and see no one home..

Are we reaaly sure we've got forwards ?? lol

In theory we do, they just don't seem to play in the actual forward line.....

Thus the goal kicking argument becomes a little more problematic !!!

Stef has had his issues and I didn't think he would survive past 2011 but you change your opinion as the facts change.

The sub rule means we must take in someone to help Jamar ruck who can also play another role - Stef is not there at the moment in the forward line but is solid in defence.

This month has been great for Martin to accelerate his ruckwork and he has done that. When Jamar comes back he can work on his forward displays.

If it gets even slightly better, he has got the second ruck position nailed.

Never underestimate ruck dominance - Jamar and Martin will give us that.

Well said rfpc.....

Martin has been a big plus for us this year. He is working very hard at a very difficult time and against quite a few odds and is doing the best he can do

and has obviously shown more than enough (you would think) to give us some hope and happiness. He should be commended.

As Rogue said earlier he needs that second string to his bow (forward line preferably) but given the work rate he has shown thus far there in the ruck there

is no reason that it won't happen in due course and this year is great to try and get that skill into (and out of) him.

The development is obvious and there for all to see and hopefully will keep going, and can only lead to good things.

So many players over the years have these stats bandied about them, but guess what? The opposition let them get their hands on the ball as it won't hurt them. When has Stef hit a moving forward with a pass? Or a leading player? Check the replays....

I could respond as rudely as you, that's so easy, but I chose not to.

Jamar couldn't hit the side of a barn door two years ago, and to be honest, his kicking is still very very suspect.

Martin's disposal isn't as bad as you seem to make out, and despite all the logic and statistical evidence that people are throwing at you, you continue to choose to rubbish him. That is your choice, but sadly nobody is buying what you're selling.

And rude? come on, harden up!

Jamar couldn't hit the side of a barn door two years ago, and to be honest, his kicking is still very very suspect.

Martin's disposal isn't as bad as you seem to make out, and despite all the logic and statistical evidence that people are throwing at you, you continue to choose to rubbish him. That is your choice, but sadly nobody is buying what you're selling.

And rude? come on, harden up!

It's surprising that I'm expected to accept all the 'evidence' that people are throwing at me, yet some posters refuse to acknowledge his lack of improvement. Watch the replays. Please don't tell me to harden up, I choose not to.

Yeh, he's been good this year but has anyone else noticed that he tries to kick the ball when a better option would be to handpass? He will try and kick the ball if he gains possession at a stoppage and inevitable the disposal is crap or he is tackled before his gets boots to ball. Would have thought given his bball background he would naturally opt for the handpass more times than not.

Yeh, he's been good this year but has anyone else noticed that he tries to kick the ball when a better option would be to handpass? He will try and kick the ball if he gains possession at a stoppage and inevitable the disposal is crap or he is tackled before his gets boots to ball. Would have thought given his bball background he would naturally opt for the handpass more times than not.

Yep, I have - he refuses to give it off.

Yeh, he's been good this year but has anyone else noticed that he tries to kick the ball when a better option would be to handpass? He will try and kick the ball if he gains possession at a stoppage and inevitable the disposal is crap or he is tackled before his gets boots to ball. Would have thought given his bball background he would naturally opt for the handpass more times than not.

Yep, I have - he refuses to give it off.

And I'm sure if he handballed too often for our liking we'd criticise him for that instead.....

....who then went to Collingwood and hardly played a game. Different era, hard to compare. I'm frustrated by Stef's lack of development. Look at Cox of West Coast - when he was drafted he could hardly bounce the ball and 3 or 4 years later he was the league's most dominant ruckman, culminating in a flag in '06. Someone coach the kid, or delist him. At the moment, he has no clue about AFL footy.

Your point of coaching may indeed be the major issue of the club at the moment. Loats is the ruck coach whom is just hopeless IMO.

It's surprising that I'm expected to accept all the 'evidence' that people are throwing at me, yet some posters refuse to acknowledge his lack of improvement. Watch the replays. Please don't tell me to harden up, I choose not to.

People refuse to acknowledge his lack of improvement because he has improved out of sight this year!

I know you don't like to believe stats, but Martin has almost doubled his disposal average this year, more than doubled his marks average, and doubled his tackle count.

Of course this makes sense when he is spending more time in the middle of the ground, but for someone who has been a ruckman for less than half a season, who has played footy for about 5 years and has never spent more than a year in any one position, to come out and compete against seasoned players, gain 40 hitouts in a match and contribute around the ground with excellent agility and passable disposal, is a huge improvement.

Is he a first ruck? No. Does he need to improve his kicking, decision making and overhead marking? Sure. But to deny him the opportunity to do so, by dropping him to Casey, when he has already improved so much in such a short period of time, is cruel, and it does nothing for the club. We need more agile big man, and Martin has proven to be a quick learner. I'm sure the club is very happy with his development this year and he will continue to get games and be part of our future.

I think Stef has come in leaps and bounds(lierally) since being thrown into the deep end. And your spin on Cox is a wonderful piece of fantsy. Cox was highly sought after by WCE after his break out season at East Perth. Never the let the facts get in the way..

Not as false or as meaningless as the spin you have given jumbo. And you will probably miss the irony in your question too.

I think this two lines are spot on.

This may be so at this current time. But when we release the reins on Gawn then you will see something special.Gawn could even take the mantle of our No1 ruckman in no time. Lastly your points on Cox is totally correct. I'd even say Cox has been thebest ruckman overall for the last decade.

jcb, how do you know how good a ruck coach David Loats is?

He seems to be doing a pretty damn good job with Jamar and Gawn in particular, and it could also be argued Martin and Spencer at least.

Your point of coaching may indeed be the major issue of the club at the moment. Loats is the ruck coach whom is just hopeless IMO.

Maybe....but isn't he coaching Jamar as well?

jcb, how do you know how good a ruck coach David Loats is?

He seems to be doing a pretty damn good job with Jamar and Gawn in particular, and it could also be argued Martin and Spencer at least.

Echo here.

How can we have a go at a ruck coach who has seen one gain AA status last season?

How can we have a go at a ruck coach who has seen one gain AA status last season?

Becuase I am pretty sure we will have a go at just about anyone !!!

This may be so at this current time. But when we release the reins on Gawn then you will see something special.Gawn could even take the mantle of our No1 ruckman in no time. Lastly your points on Cox is totally correct. I'd even say Cox has been thebest ruckman overall for the last decade.

I thought big Jeff White was up there.....no?

People refuse to acknowledge his lack of improvement because he has improved out of sight this year!

I know you don't like to believe stats, but Martin has almost doubled his disposal average this year, more than doubled his marks average, and doubled his tackle count.

Of course this makes sense when he is spending more time in the middle of the ground, but for someone who has been a ruckman for less than half a season, who has played footy for about 5 years and has never spent more than a year in any one position, to come out and compete against seasoned players, gain 40 hitouts in a match and contribute around the ground with excellent agility and passable disposal, is a huge improvement.

Is he a first ruck? No. Does he need to improve his kicking, decision making and overhead marking? Sure. But to deny him the opportunity to do so, by dropping him to Casey, when he has already improved so much in such a short period of time, is cruel, and it does nothing for the club. We need more agile big man, and Martin has proven to be a quick learner. I'm sure the club is very happy with his development this year and he will continue to get games and be part of our future.

Okay, fair call - are the coaches ruining his career? Will he always be just a stop-gapper? What's his future?

His future is as a second ruckman. He is capable as a key defender, so he can man the opposition ruckman when he isn't rucking.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if Gawn comes on and we play Jamar and Gawn in tandem.

Okay, fair call - are the coaches ruining his career? Will he always be just a stop-gapper? What's his future?

With the new sub rule all clubs are now using their second ruck as a player who can be just that, a stop gap. The second ruckman has to be able to play a number of roles, even if they don't really excel in any of those roles. Think Petrie, think Hawkins, etc.

Martin can play down back successfully, he can contribute in the middle and beat most of his rucking opponents at ground level due to his excellent agility, and in general he gives us a contest up forward. I would personally hope to see him improve as a forward, hope he can learn to lead and take contested marks, because honestly that is what we really need/want out of our secondary ruckman (see Newton getting 700 contract extensions). If Jamar comes back and Martin continues to improve, I would think that Jamar will spend at least 30% of game time up forward, which will give us a huge advantage and a much stronger forward set up, given how good Jamar is overhead.

I can see both Jamar and Martin playing together successfully in the future. Whereas I think Spencer is a pure first ruck and will struggle to fit into the team while Jamar is also playing, unless we decide to turn Jamar into a full time forward, but for that to happen we need Spencer/Gawn to be as good in the ruck as Jamar, and that could take a very long time to happen.

With the new sub rule all clubs are now using their second ruck as a player who can be just that, a stop gap. The second ruckman has to be able to play a number of roles, even if they don't really excel in any of those roles. Think Petrie, think Hawkins, etc.

Martin can play down back successfully, he can contribute in the middle and beat most of his rucking opponents at ground level due to his excellent agility, and in general he gives us a contest up forward. I would personally hope to see him improve as a forward, hope he can learn to lead and take contested marks, because honestly that is what we really need/want out of our secondary ruckman (see Newton getting 700 contract extensions). If Jamar comes back and Martin continues to improve, I would think that Jamar will spend at least 30% of game time up forward, which will give us a huge advantage and a much stronger forward set up, given how good Jamar is overhead.

I can see both Jamar and Martin playing together successfully in the future. Whereas I think Spencer is a pure first ruck and will struggle to fit into the team while Jamar is also playing, unless we decide to turn Jamar into a full time forward, but for that to happen we need Spencer/Gawn to be as good in the ruck as Jamar, and that could take a very long time to happen.

Thanks for the debate and footy talk. You know, I really, really want to be proven wrong on this one....

Thanks for the debate and footy talk. You know, I really, really want to be proven wrong on this one....

Be patient. The bloke is still a work in progress. He is playing at this level not just because Jamar is injured but because he needs to learn to competete at this level, not the level below It will fast track his progress longer term.

I can't comprehend why Stef would draw your heat when senior players are performing so badly week in, week out?