Actually, winning or losing becomes irrelevant, developing for the future is the key.

Having said that I [censored] hate losing and I through a girly tantrum everytime we do, but the reality is that with a young team decimated by injuries we're not at our best.

I know where you are coming from but your definition of developing is a bit to black and white or simplistic for me. It just comes across as being too apologetic for many failings. Development has to be a many faceted process and measured against many yardsticks. I wouldn't suggest games won is the only measurement, in fact it can sometimes be very misleading, but neither is just getting game counts up the only measurement.

Until our recent run of injuries I felt we had slipped backwards and the signs were not good (even though we had 3.5 wins). Now with the terrible run of injuries things are harder to judge. We now have no realistic chance of finals (IMO) so I am happy to accelerate the blooding of as much of the new talent as possible (howe, evans, nicholson, gawn, blease, strauss, cook) at the expense of the older marginal players (bate, newton, macdonald etc). Because of these changed circumstances the rest of this year becomes more of a development year than it would have been at the start of the year (if that makes sense).

Over the last few weeks I constantly here people critizing our club saying they are not where we should be, even Bailet said it today in the paper…Really? Is that true?

Over the last decade football has been hit with the phenomena know as rebuiding. Lets have a look at the history of the rebuild and where we are in comparision.

The first team to ever attempt to completely rebuild via low picks in the draft was St Kilda. Lets have a look at their draft history:

2000- - riewoldt (pick 1) kosi (pick 2)

2001- ball (pick 2) Clarke (pick 5) nick dal santo (13)

2002, goddard (pick 1)

• notice they had 5 picks in their first 2 years of rebuilding.

2002 marked the end of their early draft picks. In 2003 they finished 11th. In 2004 the finished a remarkable 3rd, that was 4 years after they started their rebuild(the same year we are currently in). However, they tapered off finishing 6th the following year and then 4th the year after. In 2007 they missed the finals, and since 2008 they have either made the prelim or better. 11 years after they started their rebuild- the dream seems to be over.

Despite failing to win a premiership, they have definitely had their opportunities. Obviously we are a bit behind their ladder position of 3rd in the 4th yr of the rebuild. However it is important to note, in our first year we picked up morton(pick 4) (we missed kruezer due to our loss against carlton round 22). In the equivalent year for St kilda they had pick 1 & 2 (rooey and Kozi) and in 2004 when the finished 3rd those guys were having a serious impact. In that same year Riewoldt kicked 67 goals. We definitely started the rebuild slower than them, hopefully we can have more success too.

With the early success of St Kilda’s rebuild Carlton took it to a new level and introduced the concept of “tanking” in order to rebuild. Their rebuild started in 2005 (6 years ago):

2005- Murphy kennedy

2006- gibbs

2007 kruezer + pick 3 which the on traded to WCE.

Again, carlton in their first year of rebuilding had pick 1 and an other pick in the top 5(we just had cale morton). Lets look at their progress since their rebuild. We have to factor in the fact they also had a bit of a push along by some guy call Chris Judd:

2008- 11th

2009 & 2010- 7th & 8th

2011- looking good for a top 4 spot.

4 years after beginning the rebuild, the position we are currently in. Carlton made the finals. We must remember, we haven’t traded for a Judd and in our first year we only drafted Morton vs their Kennedy and Murphy.

Lets now take a look at Melbourne:

2007- morton

2008- watts

2009- scully trenners gysberts

Last year we finished outside the 8 (the same as all the others). This year we look like we are going to finish outside the 8 as well, both St Kilda and Carlton made the finals in their equivalent year. (who knows what would have happened if we hadn’t been cursed with injuries.)

However, in St Kilda’s first 2 years of rebuilding they had 5 early picks. Carlton had 3 + judd. We had just 2- morton and watts, both skinny boys who were always going to take more time!

Okay, Morton hasn’t come along as expected. But he has had numerous long term injuries. That compounded with the fact he was going to take time anyway, is it a surprise we haven’t seen his best yet?

Watts, yr 12 commitments in yr 1, then had injuries- not allowing him to complete a preseason. Now that he has had his first full preseason, we are seeing some serious improvement.

Scully, injury interrupted preseason year one and this year hasn’t played a game due to injury.

Gysberts, missed most of last years preseason due to injury and the same goes for this year.

Trenners is the only one of the 5 who hasn’t really had an injury.

Now does it make a bit more sense why we are taking a bit longer than Carlton and St Kilda? Combine that with ditching TJ, Mclean, Bruce and Mcdonald it starts to make more sense. Combine that with grimes, scully, trenners, Jamar, Garland, Davey, Wona, Bail, not playing this week. It starts making sense, maybe we are even ahead of where we should be? Tonight, 6 years after Carlton started their rebuild we will get a look at where we should be in 2 years.

Dont lose patience, keep the faith.

DD

How about we look at the Hawks as well another team that has recently rebuilt.

Clarkson took over in 2005 Ladder position 14 Wins 5

2006 Ladder position 11 Wins 9

2007 Ladder Position 5 Wins 13

2008 Ladder POsition 2 Wins 17 ( Plus the Flag )

Bailey took Over in 2008 Ladder Position 16 Wins 3

2009 Ladder Position 16 Wins 4

2010 Ladder Position 12 Wins 8 and 1 Draw

2011 Ladder Position 9 - 14 Wins 10 at best

I would say by the end of the year we will be way behind where we should be. Yes injuries have smashed us of late but even before that we were playing crap footy and would have been a good chance to lose against North and the Saints.

I know where you are coming from but your definition of developing is a bit to black and white or simplistic for me. It just comes across as being too apologetic for many failings. Development has to be a many faceted process and measured against many yardsticks. I wouldn't suggest games won is the only measurement, in fact it can sometimes be very misleading, but neither is just getting game counts up the only measurement.

Until our recent run of injuries I felt we had slipped backwards and the signs were not good (even though we had 3.5 wins). Now with the terrible run of injuries things are harder to judge. We now have no realistic chance of finals (IMO) so I am happy to accelerate the blooding of as much of the new talent as possible (howe, evans, nicholson, gawn, blease, strauss, cook) at the expense of the older marginal players (bate, newton, macdonald etc). Because of these changed circumstances the rest of this year becomes more of a development year than it would have been at the start of the year (if that makes sense).

Yeah I completely agree, it's far more complicated than my throwaway 2 liner which I posted earlier. I'm at work and just visiting demonland inbetween work stuff and calls.

The reality is that the subject would take pages and pages if studied properly. It's not just what happens with the kids on the field which makes a great club, it's abotu everything that goes on. Things like how Junior was treated last year or how Moloney responded to his 'punishment' can have a big impact on a playing list.

At the start of the year I was really concerned about Watts, but fast forward 4 weeks and now I'm wondering what the fuss was about, the kid is going to be a star.

Your assessment is spot on btw.

How about we look at the Hawks as well another team that has recently rebuilt.

Clarkson took over in 2005 Ladder position 14 Wins 5

2006 Ladder position 11 Wins 9

2007 Ladder Position 5 Wins 13

2008 Ladder POsition 2 Wins 17 ( Plus the Flag )

Bailey took Over in 2008 Ladder Position 16 Wins 3

2009 Ladder Position 16 Wins 4

2010 Ladder Position 12 Wins 8 and 1 Draw

2011 Ladder Position 9 - 14 Wins 10 at best

I would say by the end of the year we will be way behind where we should be. Yes injuries have smashed us of late but even before that we were playing crap footy and would have been a good chance to lose against North and the Saints.

I am struggling to fault you Trout

Melbourne were playing rubbish football with almost a full list, now people are trying to re-write history and say that injuries are the problem. Who was missing from the West Coast, Sydney and Hawthorne games?

Scully and McKenzie.

How about we look at the Hawks as well another team that has recently rebuilt.

Clarkson took over in 2005 Ladder position 14 Wins 5

2006 Ladder position 11 Wins 9

2007 Ladder Position 5 Wins 13

2008 Ladder POsition 2 Wins 17 ( Plus the Flag )

Bailey took Over in 2008 Ladder Position 16 Wins 3

2009 Ladder Position 16 Wins 4

2010 Ladder Position 12 Wins 8 and 1 Draw

2011 Ladder Position 9 - 14 Wins 10 at best

I would say by the end of the year we will be way behind where we should be. Yes injuries have smashed us of late but even before that we were playing crap footy and would have been a good chance to lose against North and the Saints.

You don't win by 90+ points playing crap football. Yes we were very ordinary in some of the games, like parts of the Hawthorn game, but in others we were very good.

Actually, the astute tacticians of the game say that the way to beat the press is with good kicking.

We have elite kicking skills and are working on a gameplan to tear the press to shreds.

Just like the teething problems in the early stages when Clarkson developed the zone, we are bound to have the same difficulties as we master it.

Just because it's not working as planned just yet, does not mean it never.

Excellent. Based on Artie's game plan the opposition will never get the ball and our exquisite kicking skills will result in 200 point victories.

Don't worry about developing a defensive game plan, it only accounts for the majority of goals kicked in a game - and of late premierships.

Scully and McKenzie.

Frawley missed the first game and wasn't 100% when he first game back.

How about we look at the Hawks as well another team that has recently rebuilt.

Clarkson took over in 2005 Ladder position 14 Wins 5

2006 Ladder position 11 Wins 9

2007 Ladder Position 5 Wins 13

2008 Ladder POsition 2 Wins 17 ( Plus the Flag )

Bailey took Over in 2008 Ladder Position 16 Wins 3

2009 Ladder Position 16 Wins 4

2010 Ladder Position 12 Wins 8 and 1 Draw

2011 Ladder Position 9 - 14 Wins 10 at best

I would say by the end of the year we will be way behind where we should be. Yes injuries have smashed us of late but even before that we were playing crap footy and would have been a good chance to lose against North and the Saints.

Hawks won the flag because of the '01 and '04 drafts. The four other important players that year were Rioli, Dew, Croad and Crawford.

They completely f**ked up their drafting in the years you listed, apart from Rioli.

Hawks won the flag because of the '01 and '04 drafts. The four other important players that year were Rioli, Dew, Croad and Crawford.

They completely f**ked up their drafting in the years you listed, apart from Rioli.

GL for a team that made such a mess of drafting they seem to be still winning a few games more than us.

As well as belting us when we play.

We should be so seriously stuffed up.

They have written their success.

Ours is still very much written in pencil.

Time will tell how good we are but right now from my view point the Hawks are way in front.

If you're reading old-dee here is your chuckle for the day

Over at ology this would be a Friday Funny

*double facepalm*

I take it you both disagree.

Maybe I should have phrased it differently.

The key to beating the press is kicking.

We have drafted enough really good kicks to be able to build a side that will overcome the press through using their kicking skills.

They may not all be elite, but we have enough good kicks to make it work and work well.

Now we just need to develop the kids.

It's much like Geelong - they had the cattle to implement Thompson's gameplan and dominate.

They just had to grow, develop and learn the gameplan to the point where they could rely on it unflinchingly.

Pretty simple I'd have thought.

Honestly though Hannabal, I'm not surprised you disagree.

You seem to be bitter about something.

Melbourne were playing rubbish football with almost a full list, now people are trying to re-write history and say that injuries are the problem. Who was missing from the West Coast, Sydney and Hawthorne games? Melbourne were in the eight, but had wins over the two teams expected to finish last and second last, and a draw with a side that most believe is average at best.

No chance of finals with a full list. Bailey is two years behind every other coach in the league with tactics, and the players struggle to get motivated with him in charge.

Bingo, spot one and exactly right. Well done Thomo.

Suddenly there are a few injuries and now we have an excuse for our crap style of play. There are NO MORE EXCUSES. Time for talk is over. We need a coach who can consistently get the best out of the team week in week out, when that happens (which will hopfully be sooner rather than later) we will rise.

Hawks won the flag because of the '01 and '04 drafts. The four other important players that year were Rioli, Dew, Croad and Crawford.

They completely f**ked up their drafting in the years you listed, apart from Rioli.

I was not making a point about their drafting just the fact they won a flag four years into their rebuilding under Clarkson. Yet we have people on Demonland who think our rebuilding is on target, yet we are on track for missing the finals five years in a row.

I take it you both disagree.

Maybe I should have phrased it differently.

The key to beating the press is kicking.

We have drafted enough really good kicks to be able to build a side that will overcome the press through using their kicking skills.

They may not all be elite, but we have enough good kicks to make it work and work well.

Now we just need to develop the kids.

It's much like Geelong - they had the cattle to implement Thompson's gameplan and dominate.

They just had to grow, develop and learn the gameplan to the point where they could rely on it unflinchingly.

Pretty simple I'd have thought.

Honestly though Hannabal, I'm not surprised you disagree.

You seem to be bitter about something.

Whether you think kicking is a solution to the "fwd press" is another thing

But to suggest we have elite kicking skills (or even good or better) belies reality

If we take the backline (main place to beat the press) I struggle to come up with good kicks

Davey is elite if not erratic lately but is not winning the ball and too easily tagged (and probably will end up a fwd)

Tapscott is good for distance but not for pinpointing

The rest are pathetic to average.

QED

The term elite is used too flippantly. My mistake.

Morton, Davey, Tapscott, Strauss, Watts, Maric, Jurrah, Green are all very good kicks.

Blease, Trengove, Garland, Cook, Wona, Sylvia, Grimes, Gysberts, Scully are all maybe a step below, but still very capable.

Hmm...

Wonder how we'd be going with Robert Harvey added to our midfield... Fraser Gehrig was handy in 2004, too.

For that matter, Reiwoldt, Dal Santo, Ball and Goddard all played full seasons in 2004.

We have neither the star quality players in the key structural points, nor do we have the kids at full availability. In fact, our list of kids has been badly shaken by injury for this and last season.

The comparison isn't really fair.

Mind you, I still think that we ought to be doing a lot better than we are, particularly later in the year once we actually have those kids available.

Actually, the astute tacticians of the game say that the way to beat the press is with good kicking.

We have elite kicking skills and are working on a gameplan to tear the press to shreds.

Just like the teething problems in the early stages when Clarkson developed the zone, we are bound to have the same difficulties as we master it.

Just because it's not working as planned just yet, does not mean it never.

Are you serious?