I'm pretty settled here thanks WYL.

Your argument is that it is clearly written by someone else because you deem it as so.

My argument is that Aaron Davey is capable of writing it himself and that what you say is not necessarily so.

Your argument is that the players simplisticically "gave up."

My argument is that the player's did not consciously "give up" but don't have the required leadership, tactics and psyche to deal with some types of pressure. If the players had given up the margin would have been far greater than 41 points.

Your arguments are what I would consider to be extreme blanket statements. I don't believe in them.

So let's agree to disagree. I agree with what Chip said, You Don't.

He was TOLD to say those words....and he did. More a Follower is the Flash.

Stating it as fact

No i can't.....

Backward steps

It is exactly the way it would have happened. I didn't make anything up.

It's the way the Media works. Watch the Documentary "Labour in Power" that will tell you a lot about spin & media management...I spent 2 years working on that baby.

Stating it as fact again.

So let's agree to disagree. I agree with what Chip said, You Don't.

Backward steps.

You're unreal WYL. Pinnochio has nothing on you .

If a football team gives up for a half how much would they lose by?

200 points, 300 maybe 600 points.

If a football team gives up for a half how much would they lose by?

200 points, 300 maybe 600 points.

dare I say it your leaning towards the facetious...

There's turning it up..i.e just stopping.. and theres taking your foot off and not believing in the cause..i.,e. giving up the idea of really competing. Its like doing it without your heart being in something.. Youre not applying yourself to the max. Thats exactly what we saw..

Perhaps the idea that they gave up psychologically rather than physically is the best way to put it. They were still out on the field playing a game of football, but up stairs, they may have accepted defeat well before the final siren had sounded.

Perhaps the idea that they gave up psychologically rather than physically is the best way to put it. They were still out on the field playing a game of football, but up stairs, they may have accepted defeat well before the final siren had sounded.

Thats definitely a component of it. And this goes to my worry of a 'malaise of comfort' in that if they feel theres no dog chasing them they wont run quite so hard. Cruelled by injury this team stands to carry a few straglers if not careful.

You can be still running... but youve given up the chase. !!

Stating it as fact

Backward steps

Stating it as fact again.

Backward steps.

You're unreal WYL. Pinnochio has nothing on you.

There'd probably be no fuss if he had just said "He was probably TOLD to say those words"

In fact there would be a lot less heat on this forum if more posters qualified statements with "probably" or "IMHO" etc especially when this is really what they mean

Also a lot of posters like to burn someone who doesn't do this, when they already know he should have, just to get points in the BD comp.

If a football team gives up for a half how much would they lose by?

200 points, 300 maybe 600 points.

according to wikipedia, 213 points on average at ShytyHead Stadium

There'd probably be no fuss if he had just said "He was probably TOLD to say those words"

In fact there would be a lot less heat on this forum if more posters qualified statements with "probably" or "IMHO" etc especially when this is really what they mean

Also a lot of posters like to burn someone who doesn't do this, when they already know he should have, just to get points in the BD comp.

Good point. Maybe he should take your advice.

You must be the founding member of the BD comp seeing as you've made mention of it several times of late.

dare I say it your leaning towards the facetious...

There's turning it up..i.e just stopping.. and theres taking your foot off and not believing in the cause..i.,e. giving up the idea of really competing. Its like doing it without your heart being in something.. Youre not applying yourself to the max. Thats exactly what we saw..

Something like that, as I have said the club's psyche needs to change, when we are under attack we need a new plan and a new atttitude.

If all you are say is that we "gave up" and next week won't "give up" then you are selling the issue short and addressing nothing.

It is an extreme over- simplification to say that we gave up. Davey is actually spot on with what he says.

How would you like Bails to address the issue?

"OK boys last week we gave up, let's not give up this week ok..."

I would expect him to look at exactly why we were over-run, watch the video, speak to the players and address all of the deficiencies on their merit. The problems are not merely physical or mental, our failure was multi-dimensional not withstanding the improved effort from the Roos and the confidence that we allowed them to gain.

Death by dsegrees is still death.. If you catch my drift.

We give up by degrees...its still giving up.. To release the strain is to give them the game.

were probably arguing a similar view here.

In dealing with it at the coal face then I agree ..The root of the cause need sidentifying..and either eradicating or modifying..which ever is appropriate..

However..standing on the outside... its a duck.. A duck that gave up the game.

Davey might not see it that way and if so is playing words far too cute. The result is one team turned it on...the other turned it up He might not like that and hes now got the perfect opportunity to do sdomething about it. But its a bit rich for him to go 'cliche' when at least one of his team mates knows a Mallard when he sees it !!

Stating it as fact

Backward steps

Stating it as fact again.

Backward steps.

You're unreal WYL. Pinnochio has nothing on you .

YAWN.....i was waiting for this predictable retort..

I understand Chip coming out as he did and wanting to fire a rocket up the a$% of a few of his team-mates, some deserved it others didn't.

I understand Davey coming out the way he did, and his reason's for it.

There are players who kept trying to attack and run against the tide, they didn't deserve the "give up" tag. Players such as Jones don't deserve it when they are actively working hard to try and change the flow out there in the battle.

The fact is that both players are leaders of the club and are trying to do something positive, just going about it in different ways.

Dunstall said it best on the "insider" show on Fox. 'There comes a point in a teams time, when they need to stop TALKING about doing it... and just GO AND DO IT!!

Good point. Maybe he should take your advice.

You must be the founding member of the BD comp seeing as you've made mention of it several times of late.

No not at all, but I am the benchmark

Don't think DO! Do something!

No not at all, but I am the benchmark

You must have a lot of points.

I understand Chip coming out as he did and wanting to fire a rocket up the a$% of a few of his team-mates, some deserved it others didn't.

I understand Davey coming out the way he did, and his reason's for it.

There are players who kept trying to attack and run against the tide, they didn't deserve the "give up" tag. Players such as Jones don't deserve it when they are actively working hard to try and change the flow out there in the battle.

The fact is that both players are leaders of the club and are trying to do something positive, just going about it in different ways.

It's a team game...One in All in & Chip was right. Sadly.

I have to walk away from this in disbelief. If you think that 22 players were completely bereft of effort after half time then there is nothing more to be said.

I have to walk away from this in disbelief. If you think that 22 players were completely bereft of effort after half time then there is nothing more to be said.

Sorry Yodes but we were playing North, it is just not acceptable. There was effort of course, but not nearly enough.

Sorry Yodes but we were playing North, it is just not acceptable. There was effort of course, but not nearly enough.

So there was effort now, so they didn't give up?

I have to walk away from this in disbelief. If you think that 22 players were completely bereft of effort after half time then there is nothing more to be said.

This where its misconstrued. Its a team game..If all are not pulling there weight itslike driving with your hand brake on..

It doesnt require 22 to take their feet off teh pedals.. just some...and then by any number of degrees. Doesnt require efforts completely bereft as you put it. If some ease up by 3-5 % a further 5-6 by 5-10% its all compounds. Then frustration sets in as some think ...wtf ?? why bother if no one else will..

Anyone whos played sport with some degree of real comptetiveness can vouch they can tell when team mates drop off !!

This where its misconstrued. Its a team game..If all are not pulling there weight itslike driving with your hand brake on..

It doesnt require 22 to take their feet off teh pedals.. just some...and then by any number of degrees. Doesnt require efforts completely bereft as you put it. If some ease up by 3-5 % a further 5-6 by 5-10% its all compounds. Then frustration sets in as some think ...wtf ?? why bother if no one else will..

Anyone whos played sport with some degree of real comptetiveness can vouch they can tell when team mates drop off !!

I have said similar to this earlier, and agree completely, but afl teams don't give up consciously, surely you will concede that.

You would certainly say that the Roos applied themselves much better, ran harder and contested better.

It was unnaceptable as we all agree. It seems that WYL has argued with me (Yodes) vigorously in an effort to agree with me...

I'm pretty settled here thanks WYL.

Your argument is that it is clearly written by someone else because you deem it as so.

My argument is that Aaron Davey is capable of writing it himself and that what you say is not necessarily so.

Your argument is that the players simplisticically "gave up."

My argument is that the player's did not consciously "give up" but don't have the required leadership, tactics and psyche to deal with some types of pressure. If the players had given up the margin would have been far greater than 41 points.

Your arguments are what I would consider to be extreme blanket statements. I don't believe in them.

Surely you can see the difference between literally giving up i.e. refusing to even exert any effort and figuratively giving up, i.e. dropping their collective heads and subconsciously refusing to push themselves to the limit of their abilities to get the result. Surely you can see that without having to dabble in semantics?

And to say the margin would have been far greater than 41 points? Well over the course of 3 quarters the margin was 72 points, so it was far greater than just the 41.

I have said similar to this earlier, and agree completely, but afl teams don't give up consciously, surely you will concede that.

You would certainly say that the Roos applied themselves much better, ran harder and contested better.

It was unnaceptable as we all agree. It seems that WYL has argued with me (Yodes) vigorously in an effort to agree with me...

No i agree with James Frawley...(But Yoda is a serious Hero of mine!!)

Chip was out there he could sense it.