Watts v Hurley

[H_T 2,941]

Secondly, what kind of a slap in the face would it be to the current coaching group & support staff at the club? It would be an admission that our own coaching staff arent good enough to extract the talent from a number #1 draft pick?

Thirdly, if Watts needed such a level of coaching/mentoring where the team of coaches, support staff and past players are not enough then he either doesnt have the talent we think he does, or he doesnt give a crap about footy. I think the club would be better served getting the Ox, Neita or another one of our great forwards to "mentor" him, if infact it is even requried.

On these points. Firstly, it's arguable that the current coaching group & staff haven't extracted the talent enough out of Watts for him to put a stamp on the game at the early stage of his career. Hence why Gerard suggested it on his program.

Secondly, David King on AFL360 last night said that in Hurley he sees the hunger in him, and that he loves his footy and wants to be a part of the contest and hunts the ball. He doesn't get the same feeling with Watts and isn't sure he loves his footy as much as what Hurley does. I agree with him in this instance to date. Watts seems to do something special on the odd occassion, like take a pack mark against Hawthorn. Then yet, float around and goes missing because he may feel comfortable within himself. When Watts goes to tackle he corales or guards the opponent for a short time, before stepping in, but by then the ball has moved on, Hurley hunts them and goes for the hips. Hurley appears to want to have the ball in his hands and having a shot. He really wants the ball and when he has it he moves it on quickly. Watts may mark it and hesitate, he rarely uses it first time and it allows the opposition to man up. Seems to go against the grain sometimes. I'm hopeful he can brush up on some of these aspects to make him a better footballer.

[Roost It 1,434]

ok then since you clearly know the ins and outs of this discussion tell me exactly what is involved in a mentoring role, does Dermie put on the boots or what, do they have a few rounds in the ring?

load of shyte

Watts is the only one who can make Watts work

What are the coaches for then?

[Roost It 1,434]

the whole Dermie discussion is pretty far fetched IMO, so i can see why C&B is shrugging it off.

Firstly, for it to work Dermie would have to have some sort of reason to want to be Jack Watt's mentor and IMO it would need to be more than just cash (which Im guessing he has enough of to keep him happy). For dermie to really be the mentor that people are talking about he'd need to spend alot of time with Watts, and would need to persist with him for a couple of years id say. Cant see why Dermie would bother with all that effort? He'd be asked about the process and JW's progress on every pannel that he sat on in the various TV programs, and what if Watts showed no improvement? Plus Dermie being a natural footballer doesnt equate to him being able to teach it to others

Secondly, what kind of a slap in the face would it be to the current coaching group & support staff at the club? It would be an admission that our own coaching staff arent good enough to extract the talent from a number #1 draft pick?

Thirdly, if Watts needed such a level of coaching/mentoring where the team of coaches, support staff and past players are not enough then he either doesnt have the talent we think he does, or he doesnt give a crap about footy. I think the club would be better served getting the Ox, Neita or another one of our great forwards to "mentor" him, if infact it is even requried.

How about we ask someone who's won a [censored] Premiership.

The whole Let's ask Neita thing is [censored]. He went to water in the only grand Final he played in. We can't keep drawing rom past losers, we need to look outside to find some winners.

[nutbean 8,837]

the whole Dermie discussion is pretty far fetched IMO, so i can see why C&B is shrugging it off.

Firstly, for it to work Dermie would have to have some sort of reason to want to be Jack Watt's mentor and IMO it would need to be more than just cash (which Im guessing he has enough of to keep him happy). For dermie to really be the mentor that people are talking about he'd need to spend alot of time with Watts, and would need to persist with him for a couple of years id say. Cant see why Dermie would bother with all that effort? He'd be asked about the process and JW's progress on every pannel that he sat on in the various TV programs, and what if Watts showed no improvement? Plus Dermie being a natural footballer doesnt equate to him being able to teach it to others

Secondly, what kind of a slap in the face would it be to the current coaching group & support staff at the club? It would be an admission that our own coaching staff arent good enough to extract the talent from a number #1 draft pick?

Thirdly, if Watts needed such a level of coaching/mentoring where the team of coaches, support staff and past players are not enough then he either doesnt have the talent we think he does, or he doesnt give a crap about footy. I think the club would be better served getting the Ox, Neita or another one of our great forwards to "mentor" him, if infact it is even requried.

Your point three - You will note that I also put my hand up for the Ox ( past player ) so that fits in nicely to point three. I really query why you would suggest Ox and Neita over Dermie - just because they played for our club ? Then Bailey shouldnt be coaching our club - we should have gone with Connolly - a Melbourne past player - keep everything in house. I suggested Ox as he was a really good CHF and a clever one.

Your point one - Whether we like nob head or not I think he was a natural footballer but by his comments you can see why his name was brought up - he does think about the game and whilst i dont agree with all he says( and he is fond of himself) I can see that he studies the game. This is why his name was brought up in the first place ( and not by people on this board) - I note that his name was brought up rather than the best CHF ever to play - Carey. I think Carey was a natural footballer who would struggle to impart his knowledge - I dont feel the same about Dermott.

Your point two - nonsense - Having an assistant coach is a slap in the face to the head coach, having a development coach is a slap in the face to head coach and assistant coaches, having a ruck coach is a slap in the face to all the coaches and having any sort of motivator speak to the players is a slap to everyone at the club that they can't motivate the players themselves. Never be afraid to own up to the fact that someone may know more than you. To get one of the great CHF's of the game to impart knowledge on his defined area of expertise to a younger player aspiring to play that position is not a slap in the face to anyone.

If we accept that we need a ruck coach to specifically educate on one position on the ground, if we accept that most clubs get a tackling coach ( usually ex rugby) to educate on one specific skill then why is it difficult to accept that a player can receive further education regarding playing centre half forward.

If we perceive that a player has some weaknesses and in Jack's case that is getting lost out on the ground why wouldnt he accept education from someone who was a great ( I acknowledge the game has changed but Dermie is still a keen student of the game and would be able to adapt what he knows about forward play to the current game.)

Can I ask - was it a slap in face to Mick Malthouse that Brian Taylor was brought in to help Travis Cloke with his kicking ?

[DemonWA 3,579]

A well made point that is very wrong.(in your opinion)

If you've read recently at all you may have noticed the Jobe Watson/Greg Williams story. Forgive me for not having read anything on this; being based outside of my native Victoria I dont get the privilege of reading a news article every time a player farts...

But no, lets just continue to look within and only employ those that have worn red & blue. Surely your not serious with that comment? my point is that the guys who have played for us have a vested interest in seeing Watts become great. Guys from other clubs may not have the patience or perseverance to stick it out with him for cash alone?

Comments above in red. Apologies for not sharing your opinion in this instance

[DemonWA 3,579]

How about we ask someone who's won a [censored] Premiership.

The whole Let's ask Neita thing is [censored]. He went to water in the only grand Final he played in. We can't keep drawing rom past losers, we need to look outside to find some winners.

righto, every great CHF that has ever won a flag is linign up to be Watts' mentor?

[DemonWA 3,579]

Your point three - You will note that I also put my hand up for the Ox ( past player ) so that fits in nicely to point three. I really query why you would suggest Ox and Neita over Dermie - just because they played for our club ? Then Bailey shouldnt be coaching our club - we should have gone with Connolly - a Melbourne past player - keep everything in house. I suggested Ox as he was a really good CHF and a clever one.

All valid points, but i still believe talking about Dermie being Jack Watts' mentor is not the most productive excercise because IMO to take someone under your wing and mentor them requries some sort of vested interest or desire (on the mentor's behalf) for the mentoree to succeed, which we could only speculate about in dermotts case?

[nutbean 8,837]

All valid points, but i still believe talking about Dermie being Jack Watts' mentor is not the most productive excercise because IMO to take someone under your wing and mentor them requries some sort of vested interest or desire (on the mentor's behalf) for the mentoree to succeed, which we could only speculate about in dermotts case?

The vested interest is of course payment (nobody does nothing for nothing) and success ( which would also appeal to Dermies ego). The same vested interest of Ex Essendon Bailey, ex Port Mahoney, ex Bulldog West and Royal. - crave success and get paid.

You wouldnt be suggesting that Greg Williams did a half-assed job with Jobe Watson because he was a Carlton man ? You wouldnt suggest the David Schwarz who helped the Bullies forwards also fudged it ?

Edited April 14, 2011 by nutbean

[Roost It 1,434]

righto, every great CHF that has ever won a flag is linign up to be Watts' mentor?

No one's lining up because no one's been asked. He has talent to be very, very good, maybe even, dare I say it elite. He needs alot of really good coaching to reach that level. Having someone talk to him and show him what it takes to be that player can only help the process. Dermot wasn't as talented as Watts but who would you prefer?

[Red Sox 2]

Comments above in red. Apologies for not sharing your opinion in this instance

Fair enough, it is opinion only.

But if your going to make a suggestion and someone shows you evidence to the contrary you don't need to be defensive. Counter argue it with another example perhaps?

It's not grade 5 here, I'm fairly certain Dermie or anyone other passionate football person is not sitting back awaiting the moment to infiltrate another club when they seek him out for advice.

Mmmm, wonder what he is up to in his evil lair right now!!

Plotting the demise of Jack Watts no doubt.

[DemonWA 3,579]

The vested interest is of course payment (nobody does nothing for nothing) and success ( which would also appeal to Dermies ego). The same vested interest of Ex Essendon Bailey, ex Port Mahoney, ex Bulldog West and Royal. - crave success and get paid.

You wouldnt be suggesting that Greg Williams did a half-assed job with Jobe Watson because he was a Carlton man ? You wouldnt suggest the David Schwarz who helped the Bullies forwards also fudged it ?

No. all those names you mentioned chose to have careers in coaching. Dermie seems pretty happy in the media IMO. Therefore to entice him to come and be a worthwhile mentor for Watts i think we'd be talking some pretty decent coin. IMO that money would be better spent keeping our players who are delivering the goods, on our list for life!

[Sir Why You Little 35,264]

The Answer to the Above Dermott Brereton Question is quite simple and Very straight forward.

Dermott Brereton 5 Winning Day Grand Finals.

5 Winning Night Grand Finals ALL PLAYED AS A CHF.

Nieta and the Ox combined.....0 Grand Finals.

No disrespects to our boys at all, but this is a list of players we have to get right....From Now.

So a few quiet phone calls to Dermott i am all in favour of.

Remember Free Agency is around the corner, which will make the Big Clubs more attractive....to compete on a level with them, we do need on field success.

Say what you like about Essendon, but right now they have overtaken us big time...The MFC has got to get that hard edge.

[DemonWA 3,579]

I'm fairly certain Dermie or anyone other passionate football person is not sitting back awaiting the moment to infiltrate another club when they seek him out for advice.

Mmmm, wonder what he is up to in his evil lair right now!!

Plotting the demise of Jack Watts no doubt.

Never said that he was plotting, ratehr that i'm sure he's not lying awake at night worrying about Jack Watts' untapped potential

[Roost It 1,434]

The Answer to the Above Dermott Brereton Question is quite simple and Very straight forward.

Dermott Brereton 5 Winning Day Grand Finals.

5 Winning Night Grand Finals ALL PLAYED AS A CHF.

Nieta and the Ox combined.....0 Grand Finals.

No disrespects to our boys at all, but this is a list of players we have to get right....From Now.

So a few quiet phone calls to Dermott i am all in favour of.

Remember Free Agency is around the corner, which will make the Big Clubs more attractive....to compete on a level with them, we do need on field success.

Say what you like about Essendon, but right now they have overtaken us big time...The MFC has got to get that hard edge.

Very calmly put

[Sir Why You Little 35,264]

Very calmly put

Facts are easy when they make sense.

[Roost It 1,434]

Facts are easy when they make sense.

Of course but at the moment I'm enjoying throwing some capitals around

Hell I even used an emoticom which I never do

[Red Sox 2]

Never said that he was plotting, ratehr that i'm sure he's not lying awake at night worrying about Jack Watts' untapped potential

I'm going to give him some more credit than that.

He is passionate about the game as a whole. Anyone sought for this role would be.

Custodians of the game WA.

[Sir Why You Little 35,264]

This is exactly what the Debt Demolition is all about.

Paying Top Dollar to all the coaches we have in our Football Dept.

CHF is still the hardest position on the ground to play...our number 1 draft pick deserves to learn from a true champion of that position.

[Nasher 33,187]

How about we ask someone who's won a farking Premiership.

The whole Let's ask Neita thing is bullshit. He went to water in the only grand Final he played in. We can't keep drawing rom past losers, we need to look outside to find some winners.

That's extremely harsh on a club champion, but I agree with the general premise of calling on the best, not the best of whatever we've got lying around.

[Roost It 1,434]

That's extremely harsh on a club champion, but I agree with the general premise of calling on the best, not the best of whatever we've got lying around.

Probably a tad harsh, I'll retract that but you get but you get the drift

[old dee 23,171]

On these points. Firstly, it's arguable that the current coaching group & staff haven't extracted the talent enough out of Watts for him to put a stamp on the game at the early stage of his career. Hence why Gerard suggested it on his program.

Secondly, David King on AFL360 last night said that in Hurley he sees the hunger in him, and that he loves his footy and wants to be a part of the contest and hunts the ball. He doesn't get the same feeling with Watts and isn't sure he loves his footy as much as what Hurley does. I agree with him in this instance to date. Watts seems to do something special on the odd occassion, like take a pack mark against Hawthorn. Then yet, float around and goes missing because he may feel comfortable within himself. When Watts goes to tackle he corales or guards the opponent for a short time, before stepping in, but by then the ball has moved on, Hurley hunts them and goes for the hips. Hurley appears to want to have the ball in his hands and having a shot. He really wants the ball and when he has it he moves it on quickly. Watts may mark it and hesitate, he rarely uses it first time and it allows the opposition to man up. Seems to go against the grain sometimes. I'm hopeful he can brush up on some of these aspects to make him a better footballer.

I Think this is the same "David King" that said two months ago on 3AW said that Scully had definately signed that week with GWS.

Only to have Scully say at a press conference a week later that this had not happened.

If he told me it was dark outside I would go out and have a look.

Edited April 14, 2011 by old dee

[Guest bonjohn]

Who would you pick? Hurley or Watts ...

Would you pick Michael Hurley ahead of Jack Watts?

Dermie is surprisingly supportive of Jack but saying he is "less comfortable (with body contact) than Hurley" is a concern.

Jason Akermanis made a great point in the same H/sun edition,he believes Collingwoods strength was in there legs and named the obvious examples.Ive been a little concerned with some of the tests the A.I.S does,or more to the point the credence given them.

Who cares how high a guy can jump.Watch a high jumper ,he will move to the bar like a drifting petal ,sure he can leap but a stiff breeze will knock him over.It is how high you can jump through opponents,how fast you can run through them,how you can stand in a tackle that matters in our game .

i would take Watts at the moment, he has nous and superior ability,but he better build that rump,build that leg core.Upper body strength is over rated,biceps look good,but holding your ground in a marking contest comes from your legs.A good pre season for Jack next year should be about holding his ground and power,not speed, off the mark.

[Guest bonjohn]

And that would be what? Maybe Watts has a bigger tank; that would be about it.

IMO, no. You are born with toughness/hardness/desire for a contest, or you are not. Hurley has it, Watts doesn't.

I agree with you to a certain extent though a change in physical development can challenge your argument.Jack just needs stronger legs so when he hits those packs he is doing it with a conviction he never knew he had.

ive seen many a junior look supremely harder,tougher etc than the rest of the group ,but his physical development is man like.

Every person i know says the first time they saw James Hird they knew he was going to be a champ.Thats crap,more like the first time i NOTICED Hird i knew he was a champ in the making.

Hird was taken at 80 odd in the draft and developed under the radar.Jack just build that bottom core,like James did,and one day you will have plenty of pride and will not need the apologies of critics.

[leehow 285]

are all the pro-hurley people watching todays game? while i admit hurley has shown more to date than watts, he has done next to nothing today. kicked one goal early from the boundary line, but since then has barely had a touch. i am not bagging hurley, because i think he is a very good player, but it just shows that young players will have quiet games. you cannot expect them to dominate or be in the best every week. jack has really only shown glimpses so far, but we all know the talent is there. we all just need to be patient with him, because one day soon it will all click, and we will see the reason he went at number one.

[dee-luded 2,958]

I would like to know on what basis you know he will be a good player

Have you seen something great that other supporters

have missed or are you just hoping wishing and wondering like all of us

in my opinion he has showed nothing yet to justify No 1 draft pick

As I said elsewhere Jackie boy has to show something, it is up to him to quiet the negative comments. It is up to him to perform

It isnt being negative to question his ability HE HAS TO SHOW US or he will just be another player with potential

I hope this weekend he has the opportunity and does just that

Ohhh, So your just trying to motivate him into playing.