THEY SAID THEY WERE COMING ...

[Jerry Lundergard 420]

After watching the Blues today, I have no doubt in my mind that we have much better depth than them. I would back our bottom 6 players against theirs any day of the week. Here is quick comparison form this weeks teams.

Carlton

Armfield

Austin

Browne

Joseph

Robinson

Wiggins

Melbourne (obviously open to debate, and I had a hard time deciding on a bottom 6)

Bate

Maric

Petterd

Johnson

Martin

Bennell

Am I on the money here?

Did the Blues just have a bad day?

Or do i overrate our list?

[Chelly 827]

When they said they were coming it was a case of premature ...

elation !

[rodent killer 0]

After watching the Blues today, I have no doubt in my mind that we have much better depth than them. I would back our bottom 6 players against theirs any day of the week. Here is quick comparison form this weeks teams.

Carlton

Armfield

Austin

Browne

Joseph

Robinson

Wiggins

Melbourne (obviously open to debate, and I had a hard time deciding on a bottom 6)

Bate

Maric

Petterd

Johnson

Martin

Bennell

Am I on the money here?

Did the Blues just have a bad day?

Or do i overrate our list?

They are but unfortunately its in their pants

[rpfc 28,779]

Bate

Maric

Petterd

Johnson

Martin

Bennell

Am I on the money here?

Did the Blues just have a bad day?

Or do i overrate our list?

I'd swap Bate with Grimes but you are pretty much on the money. You must be a fan of Robert Walls as he loves doing this when comparing teams.

They were awful Carlton, and Judd has made them competitive in the middle but if Fev is off, and he was, the are going to lose more games than they win.

They better win a flag in the next 3 or 4 years, before Fev calls it quits, or they won't win one in Judd's career.

They could really use Josh Kennedy...

[Ryan Dee 140]

After watching the Blues today, I have no doubt in my mind that we have much better depth than them. I would back our bottom 6 players against theirs any day of the week. Here is quick comparison form this weeks teams.

Carlton

Armfield

Austin

Browne

Joseph

Robinson

Wiggins

Melbourne (obviously open to debate, and I had a hard time deciding on a bottom 6)

Bate

Maric

Petterd

Johnson

Martin

Bennell

Am I on the money here?

Did the Blues just have a bad day?

Or do i overrate our list?

Biased. Stupid comparision,

[Jerry Lundergard 420]

Biased. Stupid comparision,

Nice input. Did you forget to add something after that comma?

[pantaloons 2,019]

Biased. Stupid comparision,

Care to elaborate?

Carlton have invited scorn with their arrogant advertising campaign. They should be making finals in the next couple of years, but with no spine oustide of Fev, are no chance for a Grand Final appearance unless that changes.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Care to elaborate?

Carlton have invited scorn with their arrogant advertising campaign. They should be making finals in the next couple of years, but with no spine oustide of Fev, are no chance for a Grand Final appearance unless that changes.

You really think that Fev has a spine?

They said they were coming, but coming from where and going to.....?

[DeeMfc 621]

Biased. Stupid comparision,

The question is rather simple........

Do we have more depth than Carlton ?

My answer is YES we do !

BUT our problem is at the other end of the list. We don't have an elite player like an "Ablett" or a "Judd". Yet.....

[Ryan Dee 140]

Some of those players are not in our bottom 6

And is your bottom 6 based on listed players or who played this week or who plays in general?

You have chosen 6 players on each list to help support your view not to show a fair comparison.

Dont get me wrong i think we have great depth atm.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,809]

Biased. Stupid comparision,

I thought it was an astute and interesting observation.

But even if I disagreed, I wouldn't make such a terse and spiteful rejection.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

After watching the Blues today, I have no doubt in my mind that we have much better depth than them. I would back our bottom 6 players against theirs any day of the week. Here is quick comparison form this weeks teams.

You're probably right that our worst 6 are not too bad. But that's not necessarily a good thing. Our list is chock full of players that, on their best days, be 2nd or 3rd tier players. On their worst they'll be list cloggers. I'm thinking here of players like Bartram, Valenti... The Blues go along the route of recruiting 6-8 stars of different shapes and sizes, and thinking the rest of the list will take care of itself.

I prefer our method, but at the same time I'm certain that our "worst six" in our 22 won't be able to offset the fact we don't have a Judd, Fev, Murphy etc etc...

[MadAsHell 4,215]

As far as an overal list goes we certainly have much more depth and a lot more talent coming through. Their top dozen to 15 players are very good, but after that they don't have anything else coming through where as any of the players on our list apart from maybe hald a dozen could still have a big impact on our club in either the immediate or long term future. Only way Carlton can win a flag in the coming years is if they stay injury free and all their starts fire in all finals matches.

[Jarka 767]

The only issue I have is that alot of our depth is based on potential, and as we've seen over the last decade we've had alot of potential come through the club but for various reasons it hasn't materialized. I'm am hoping though that things will be different under Bailey.

Carlton's top players are way ahead of ours

[Tolstoys Nudge 1,734]

A great topic, and I totally agree!

Bottom 6 pretty close, except Bate prob top 15, but whoever said swap with Grimes, shame on you Grimes is already rated as one of our 10-12 most importnat players, thtas from the club.

But yes, our depth is looking great, add in Mcnamara, , Netwon, Cheney, The injuries, of which we have as many as most, then things really do look positive. Having to rop Cheney after a good game proves it.

Still Watts, Strauss, Blease, Jurrah, Bail to come..

Hmmmm..

[two sheds jackson 3]

The medias excitement over Carlton is premature at this stage. They should make the 8 this year and might push top 4 in a few years time, but their forwardline rests completely on an erratic forward who will be in his 30s when their wave of first round picks hit their peak, they have a sub-par backline and, agreed, their bottom six or so players are barely AFL standard if it all. They have some major issues to work out before they can a seriously challenge for a flag.

[Ho Chi Dee 0]

After watching the Blues today, I have no doubt in my mind that we have much better depth than them. I would back our bottom 6 players against theirs any day of the week. Here is quick comparison form this weeks teams.

If football were a battle of team's bottom ranked players, Melbourne would currently be sitting comfortably indeed.

Depth is only really useful if you've enough very good players to guide a team. And I would mark depth differently. Rather than seeing depth as "bottom" ranked players, I'd argue that true depth is in having a wide range of middle tiered players. This is were Carlton fall down - there is far too much gap between their best and worst.

Teams will always have players that just struggle along. You need a good smattering of excellent players backed by an even spread of good middle tiered ones. Strugglers will always be there.

Melbourne certainly have a number of younger types that could become very good - however even if they do become so, we'll need a much better average when it comes to good players aged in the 23-28 bracket if we're to do more than make up the numbers.

[rpfc 28,779]

Some of those players are not in our bottom 6

And is your bottom 6 based on listed players or who played this week or who plays in general?

You have chosen 6 players on each list to help support your view not to show a fair comparison.

Dont get me wrong i think we have great depth atm.

It would be the 16th to 22nd players on a list, an exercise, admittedly flawed, that is easiest to do with the 22 that plays that week.

It's not biased, if their team is higher than ours, surely they should come out ahead but it is arguable. And I would argue they don't.

We can't compete with Judd, Stevens, Murphy, Gibbs, and Fevola. Davey would be in their league but we may have a few more enter their league soon, and that is when our better 16th-22nd players will be valuable.

And why should they have depth? Judd is on $800k, Fevola $700k, Stevens $500k, Warnock $400k, etc

They should have no money left to spend on the rest of their list...

[JP_ 60]

I think Carlton is a pretty good argument against the Tank -> Draft -> Profit model of list management that many see as the most efficient path to a premiership. Knowing how to win a game is as important a skill as knowing how to kick, and I'm not sure there's any evidence that long-term failure has ever resulted in success in this league. Success isn't something that just "happens", it's something that has to be trained for and I think it's to the benefit of everyone if this training starts to take place as soon as someone sets foot into a football club. Throwing a bunch of kids to the wolves week after week without any concern for the result may have its benefits, but all the talent in the world counts for nought if they don't know what to do with it. The expectation that Murphy / Gibbs et al. would just sort of pick up that match-winning instinct in the absense of any on-field or off-field guidence was always going to be hopelessly optimistic and I think we're seeing that with Carlton now, and with Fremantle, St. Kilda (until this year at least - let's see how long it lasts) and Richmond previously.

The most recent premiers (Hawthorn, Geelong, West Coast, Sydney, Brisbane) never spent extended periods in obscurity, at least not to the same degree that St. Kilda, Fremantle, Carlton and Richmond have (could probably include Melbourne in that too, though I think under Bailey there are indications that a losing culture - not even one of "honorable losses" - will be tolerated). High draft-picks for these successful clubs (to the extent they were necessary to begin with) were always put in their proper place as a means to an end rather than an end in itself. To use Geelong as an example, they missed the finals in 2005 and were 2-3 after 5 rounds in 2006. Beyond that point, the playing group were sufficiently disciplined (no accident - such discipline must be drilled into players over a long period and does not just arise from nowhere) to confront players like Johnson and Scarlett of their own volition and demand a universal commitment to the team cause. The rest, as they say, is history. They had some luck with father-son picks along the way, but other than that won a premiership with a team full of mid-range draft picks. It didn't take an influx of high picks or a new coach to turn that team's fortunes around, it took the players themselves to commit to a winning culture. Such commitment, as I have said, doesn't just turn up serendipitously at the doorstep: it has to be trained from the time the players arrive at the club with the expectation that - as with all other skills - it may take some time to learn.

That's why I'm concerned that some people see it as being in our best interests to collapse in a screaming heap this season. I'd rather see us win 7 games - with an unmistakable upward trajectory - than to sacrifice competitiveness and team morale for the sake of a priority draft pick. Butcher and Scully won't the difference between winning a premiership and not, the other 20 blokes they'll be taking the field with will be. I'd rather have Butcher or Scully and a team full of players who have been instilled with the desire and knowledge of how to win than both of them in a team full of players that have been taught that losing is the quickest way to success.

I know it sounds easy enough in the abstract, but I think that the continuing uselessness of Carlton (and other teams that have found themselves in similar positions) would tend to bear me out: even in the long term, there is little benefit to losing. For that reason, I'll be hoping that we win 5+ games this year, and I hope the rest of you will too.

[SJX 6]

I dug this article up this morning for a Tigers mate as well:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,2...2-19742,00.html

[Jaded No More 68,974]

Here is the problem; Carlton's best 6, are as good as any, outside of their top 6, they have a whole collection of absolute crap. They have no backline, and no forwardline outside of Fev.

Our top 6 would struggle to get a game at most clubs, and are not A graders (with the possible exception of Davey/Green), but we are a lot more even across the board and have a great developing backline and some nice forward prospects.

That's why, I believe, we will win a flag before Carlton (I have a huge bet going with my best friend, so I truly hope I'm right on this!)

[titan_uranus 25,043]

Some of those players are not in our bottom 6

And is your bottom 6 based on listed players or who played this week or who plays in general?

You have chosen 6 players on each list to help support your view not to show a fair comparison.

Dont get me wrong i think we have great depth atm.

Well why didn't you say this in your first reply?

As it is, I'd say Jerry got the bottom 6 pretty right.

Here is the problem; Carlton's best 6, are as good as any, outside of their top 6, they have a whole collection of absolute crap. They have no backline, and no forwardline outside of Fev.

Our top 6 would struggle to get a game at most clubs, and are not A graders (with the possible exception of Davey/Green), but we are a lot more even across the board and have a great developing backline and some nice forward prospects.

Quite right. Carlton has a lot of star players (Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, Stevens, Fevola) but when they are down (Judd was basically ineffectual yesterday, Gibbs too, Fevola's had his worst 3-week period in 5 years), the other Carlton players can't stand up. Robinson's a good example. When the team's up and firing (e.g. vs Richmond and Collingwood), he plays well. When the better players are down and the team's losing, he looks completely lost and doesn't play anywhere near as well.

Carlton still relies too heavily on its best players. Which makes Jerry's argument completely valid. Melbourne doesn't have to rely on our stars, because we don't have any. But our bottom 6 beats Carlton's.

[heartbeatstrue 57]

We better watch out or we'll have Carltank tanking on us again this year!

(I wouldn't have Stefan Martin in my bottom six - nice article on him by Andrea Petrie in today's Sports Age incidentally. The problem with your choice of those 6 players is their different stages of development, a few have potential to develop into absolute champions. But like you i'm happier with our list and its potential, except for missing a couple of top-class champions)

[montasaurus 0]

I've never been one to kick somebody while they are down, but I'll make an exception for those cheats!

K I C K

All they need now is for Ju$$ to go down with a knee!

[Hobbits's 17]

They could really use Josh Kennedy...

I will use this next time I'm talking with a carlton supporter mate of mine. Thanks.

Here is the problem; Carlton's best 6, are as good as any, outside of their top 6, they have a whole collection of absolute crap. They have no backline, and no forwardline outside of Fev.

Our top 6 would struggle to get a game at most clubs, and are not A graders (with the possible exception of Davey/Green), but we are a lot more even across the board and have a great developing backline and some nice forward prospects.

That's why, I believe, we will win a flag before Carlton (I have a huge bet going with my best friend, so I truly hope I'm right on this!)

Can you let us know what the bet is? I am curious. I think you're a good chance.

All they need now is for Ju$$ to go down with a knee!

Cruel.