Interesting conversation with two strands happening over at ology about what is a better outcome for this club's future

A) Bottoming out again in 09 with 4 wins or less and securing picks 1+2 and in the draft (or 1+3 or 2+4 if the Eagles are down there too) This does not necessarily mean we get flogged every week like 08. More like in 07 when we were ordinary but largely competitive and lost some close ones. But we get those picks in the last untampered draft. NOTE: This does not mean we lose on purpose ('tank')

VS

B ) Getting some game plan going, some further individual improvement, win 6-10 games, finish outside the 8 and get a pick 6-8 ish. Some confidence and momentum grows amongst the whole MFC community and the side supposedly starts to steadily climb the ladder.

The other (long-term) factor is whether or not we should be:

C) looking to secure prolific opposition players to lead and mentor the younger players, and to hopefully gain some immediate on-field improvement, even at the expense of big salaries and/or draft picks and even if these players only have a few years left

VS

D) sticking with a youth policy, keeping our picks and building the side up by developing our own kids into stars and leaders

Hope that makes sense - would love to know the general consensus around here... choose carefully! :D

I have deliberately discluded the option for winning the flag, before anyone points that out!!!

The best thing that can happen for this club is to win 4 games next year whilst by and large still being competitive throughout the year. To win a premiship you need an extremely solid core of players but more importantly you need around 3 super stars (players considered to be in the top 10 of the AFL given that particular year).

At the moment obviously we don't have any stars however what we do have is an extremly strong core of players. If we can add Watts, Butcher and Scully to this we basically gain a Matthew Pavlich, a Nick Riewaldt and a Chris Judd.

After 2009 we can start worrying about winning games.

i disagree

players need to know how to win

cale morton for instance has only played in 2 wins

players get used to losing

i would rather 22 players (or more) be full of confidence thinking that we are competitive and have some good wins under their belt than get one or 2 more young players

i think those young players could be superstars but if the 22 players do not know how to win, they will join the culture

i want success next year at the expense of draft picks

22 players with winning experiance > 1 (possibly 2) players at the draft

Joel Selwood was pretty good at winning, didn't help win them this GF.

Hodge, Mitchell, Roughead etc. all started in a battling team. It's pretty narrow-minded to say players need to "learn to win." I'd rather they learnt to hate losing

I would like to see mfc build their own side, preferably building through draft picks and youth & development. Of course I want improvement from the side next year, I want them to be competitive. With the return of injured players to the line-up, an early start to pre-season and new sponsors, new board, new president, new CEO, new direction and better cohesion on-field through better planning and more game time for our younger players, I'd expect nothing less than a significant improvement.

Whether or not that correlates to a certain amount of wins remains to be seen. Of course I wouldn't mind some fantastic picks in next years draft, however I don't want to see a deja' vu '08 season next year either.

however I don't want to see a deja' vu '08 season next year either.

well I did specify that exact thing as there is obviously a big difference... the question is for a better year but still winning 4 or less more like 07 (exc. r22!)

have I phrased the question incorrectly? Anyone that wanted/wants us to pick up O'Keefe or Cousins or whoever should have voted for a 'C'

i disagree

players need to know how to win

cale morton for instance has only played in 2 wins

players get used to losing

i would rather 22 players (or more) be full of confidence thinking that we are competitive and have some good wins under their belt than get one or 2 more young players

i think those young players could be superstars but if the 22 players do not know how to win, they will join the culture

i want success next year at the expense of draft picks

22 players with winning experiance > 1 (possibly 2) players at the draft

On the contrary, i think its maybe even more important for them to lose and lose badly.

To taste that feeling of being maltreated, disrespected and disregarded by the footballing community.

I think being embarrassed like this gives teams that killer instinct that makes them keep punishing a team no matter how far ahead they are. That refusal to lose a contest no matter what stage of the game because they remember and loathe that feeling of losing.

Hawthorn did it for a few years. Even Geelong had it for at least a season a couple of years back.

And there is nothing WORSE than a team that has all the potential but blows it by not finishing off teams like they should.

Winning games is something they'll learn on their own. And if not, that's what coaches are for. Guys like Voss, Buckley & Hird don't need to be on the field with you, for you to learn from them, nor any coach for that matter.

Joel Selwood was pretty good at winning, didn't help win them this GF.

Hodge, Mitchell, Roughead etc. all started in a battling team. It's pretty narrow-minded to say players need to "learn to win." I'd rather they learnt to hate losing

carlton have been on the bottom for years and i honestly dont see them as a real force

You will

You will

I'll second that

If we ever get up there they will be our biggest obstacle

For starters they will smash us in the ruck... now

I would like to see mfc build their own side, preferably building through draft picks and youth & development. Of course I want improvement from the side next year, I want them to be competitive. With the return of injured players to the line-up, an early start to pre-season and new sponsors, new board, new president, new CEO, new direction and better cohesion on-field through better planning and more game time for our younger players, I'd expect nothing less than a significant improvement.

Whether or not that correlates to a certain amount of wins remains to be seen. Of course I wouldn't mind some fantastic picks in next years draft, however I don't want to see a deja' vu '08 season next year either.

well I did specify that exact thing as there is obviously a big difference... the question is for a better year but still winning 4 or less more like 07 (exc. r22!)

have I phrased the question incorrectly? Anyone that wanted/wants us to pick up O'Keefe or Cousins or whoever should have voted for a 'C'

I understood the question. As my bold responses indicate.

With respect to O'Keefe & Cousins, I don't think they will be considered for the PSD, IMO. Besides their age counts against what Melbourne are planning for. O'Keefe would be a handy acquisition for 3-4 years, maybe 5 years. But, he comes at a hefty price of $500-$600K per year. I just think its the wrong time to go after such a player in the position we are in.

We've got to go through the draft and improve our players from within.

I understood the question. As my bold responses indicate.

With respect to O'Keefe & Cousins, I don't think they will be considered for the PSD, IMO. Besides their age counts against what Melbourne are planning for. O'Keefe would be a handy acquisition for 3-4 years, maybe 5 years. But, he comes at a hefty price of $500-$600K per year. I just think its the wrong time to go after such a player in the position we are in.

We've got to go through the draft and improve our players from within.

yeah I didn't mean you specifically with that bit... no love for option C yet plenty have been arguing it of late....

yeah I didn't mean you specifically with that bit... no love for option C yet plenty have been arguing it of late....

Yes, a thread I started regarding O'Keefe in the Trading forum contains many of these arguments for O'Keefe, after I asked whether is he worth pursuing in the PSD: -

HERE

Winning 5-9 games next year would be absolute suicide for the club. We could potentially blow the opportunity of having pick 1 and 2 in next years draft. We can't have a repeat of 2007 we're we won 1 too many games.

We're so far off the pace at the moment, and we must gain as much talent as we can before Gold Coast steal the draft picks.

If there is one year to have a poor year, it's next year.

Therefore I vote for a total re-build. The aquasition of Cousins or O'Keefe would probably net only 1 or 2 extra wins next year, but would be very handy in 2010.

I'd rather they go out and win a s much as they can, where we end up we end up but I would hate for the club to try and lose games from the start, if we have won 4 with a few weeks to go, I'd be sending players off for surgery.

I'd rather they go out and win as much as they can, where we end up we end up but I would hate for the club to try and lose games from the start, if we have won 4 with a few weeks to go, I'd be sending players off for surgery.

Here, here.

This is ridiculous.

We must & we will be preparing for 2009 with the intention of winning as many games as possible. If you think the MFC will be thinking any other way you are deluded.

'Bottoming out' can only be considered part way through a season when it is clear finals are not an option and blooding youngsters and experimenting takes precedence of fielding our best 22.

The concept that a club will be aiming to 'bottom out' before a season has even begun is just plain idiotic and contrary to popular opinion was never the intention of Hawthorn or Geelong or any other club we are supposedly modelling ourselves on.

I would also rather go out and try win every game!

Every game i watch i want us to win.

Build with dignity and gain respect.

People rate picks 1 very high dont they. There is no doubt we will get a top 5 pick next year and that is a good enough pick.

I think i saw somewhere, no number 1 pick has ever been part of a premiership winning team

But to answer the question no i think we would be better off rebuilding naturally.

Here, here.

This is ridiculous.

We must & we will be preparing for 2009 with the intention of winning as many games as possible. If you think the MFC will be thinking any other way you are deluded.

'Bottoming out' can only be considered part way through a season when it is clear finals are not an option and blooding youngsters and experimenting takes precedence of fielding our best 22.

The concept that a club will be aiming to 'bottom out' before a season has even begun is just plain idiotic and contrary to popular opinion was never the intention of Hawthorn or Geelong or any other club we are supposedly modelling ourselves on.

I imagine a lot of people around here did quite poorly at school because they failed to read the exam questions properly

Where does it say we should be AIMING to lose? The question is about your personal opinion about if you think we would be BETTER OFF IF IT HAPPENED THAT WAY

because whether we are aiming for it or not it's very likely to happen anyway cos we absolutely stink

fcs I thought i had every angle covered but there's always a dunce or two that misses it!

It's pretty narrow-minded to say players need to "learn to win." I'd rather they learnt to hate losing

Totally agree. The players should be storing these thrashings in their heads and when the wheel does eventually turn, i want these boys to be ruthless and go for opposition throats. If you're strong enough mentally, losing pushes you to harden the fark up.

I think i saw somewhere, no number 1 pick has ever been part of a premiership winning team

Made untrue this year by the Hawks with Luke Hodge.

I imagine a lot of people around here did quite poorly at school because they failed to read the exam questions properly

Where does it say we should be AIMING to lose? The question is about your personal opinion about if you think we would be BETTER OFF IF IT HAPPENED THAT WAY

because whether we are aiming for it or not it's very likely to happen anyway cos we absolutely stink

fcs I thought i had every angle covered but there's always a dunce or two that misses it!

No, I understood your post and the subsequent responses fully and choose to respond to it as I did. Its a forum not an exam paper.

In my opinion BARRACKING FOR YOUR TEAM TO LOSE, sorry, how did you put, thinking we would be better off we lose, 6 months before the start of the season, is just plain wrong.

Tanking discussions after a poor start to a season is one thing, this is just ridiculous. People are taking this 'bottoming out' approach to a whole new level now, I think its sucks and aside from all that is based on the flawed logic that 2 years of Priority Picks = Premierships, which it does not.

Made untrue in 2002 by Des Headland

I would also rather go out and try win every game!

Every game i watch i want us to win.

Build with dignity and gain respect.

People rate picks 1 very high dont they. There is no doubt we will get a top 5 pick next year and that is a good enough pick.

I think i saw somewhere, no number 1 pick has ever been part of a premiership winning team

But to answer the question no i think we would be better off rebuilding naturally.

Cooney

Hodge

Judd

Franklin

McLean

Morton, Cotchin umm last year's whole top 5

There's a good chance you get a star in the top 5. The top picks are getting better each year. Having 2 picks doubles that chance. Not rocket science

Made untrue this year by the Hawks with Luke Hodge.

Wasn't Desy Headland No.1 - 2001.

edit: - 45hg...thanks...you got me...but wasnt it 2001?

No, I understood your post and the subsequent responses fully and choose to respond to it as I did. Its a forum not an exam paper.

In my opinion BARRACKING FOR YOUR TEAM TO LOSE, sorry, how did you put, thinking we would be better off we lose, 6 months before the start of the season, is just plain wrong.

Tanking discussions after a poor start to a season is one thing, this is just ridiculous. People are taking this 'bottoming out' approach to a whole new level now, I think its sucks and aside from all that is based on the flawed logic that 2 years of Priority Picks = Premierships, which it does not.

well that's what you reckon and it's a valid viewpoint

there is nothing in the OP about tanking (well now i've edited it there is) so why take the discussion there?

i will barrack for whatever is best for the club - if that is finishing last or trading Brad Green or whatever I will support it