I can't see them bottoming out like us though. They've already got games into kids who are competitive who impress.

I thought that in 2006 about MFC.

Be careful as WCE and Port have shown you can fall from grace pretty quickly in this game. North dont have an abundance of A grade players. They need to work out consistently. Its been a bit up and down this year. They need to be careful. However, I think Laidley is a little more ruthless than the previous footy administration.

To all those that believe that we started our "bottoming out" process after 2007, then answer this:

Why did the current football administration (not Daniher) pursue Chris Judd at a cost in real terms of 3 high draft picks (Morton, Grimes, Maric)?

I can just imagine our sales pitch to Judd, "Well Chris, we'll be bottoming out for the next 3 years and we wan't you to be part of our exciting future".

Bottoming out, my arse!!!!!

and in the end that probably is a good reason why he didnt come to us isnt it?

Bottoming out = coming to the realisation that the older players aren't going to take the club to the next level or aren't going to sustain competitive football of what is required. Hence playing alot of first gamers, trying various positions and fast tracking new developing players. In addition, the retirement of stalwarts and veterans, a large turnover of the list in successive years.

That's what has happened mo.

To all those that believe that we started our "bottoming out" process after 2007, then answer this:

Why did the current football administration (not Daniher) pursue Chris Judd at a cost in real terms of 3 high draft picks (Morton, Grimes, Maric)?

I can just imagine our sales pitch to Judd, "Well Chris, we'll be bottoming out for the next 3 years and we wan't you to be part of our exciting future".

Bottoming out, my arse!!!!!

Actually Mo, you should answer that question. Because you are the one that has tried to fabricate that exact pitch with your juvenile re casting of history.

The inescapable fact was that by about round 5 2007, any hope of continuing your exalted glory days of 2004 to 2006, the side was shot and scope to improve let alone maintain our standing from 2006 had disappeared like a shadow in the sun.

The problems started emerging then and continued into this year.

Well done Mo. Another serve of big talking bluster from someone without any credible basis or fact. Bravo.

Actually Mo, you should answer that question. Because you are the one that has tried to fabricate that exact pitch with your juvenile re casting of history.

The inescapable fact was that by about round 5 2007, any hope of continuing your exalted glory days of 2004 to 2006, the side was shot and scope to improve let alone maintain our standing from 2006 had disappeared like a shadow in the sun.

The problems started emerging then and continued into this year.

Well done Mo. Another serve of big talking bluster from someone without any credible basis or fact. Bravo.

Ha, ha You can't answer the question, can you? Why pursue Chris Judd?

Why pursue Chris Judd?

Even with your limited outlook, you could work out a case why you would chase him as a extremely talented footballer, leader of younger players, crowd pulling footballer. Have a look at Carlton and how they are building a side around him.

Dim.

Ha, ha You can't answer the question, can you? Why pursue Chris Judd?

You pursue Judd because he's a gun player, a born leader, a once in a decade midfielder, a marketer's dream. Everything that this club lacks all rolled into one. Do you understand now?

You pursue Judd because he's a gun player, a born leader, a once in a decade midfielder, a marketer's dream. Everything that this club lacks all rolled into one. Do you understand now?

I agree, but if our list was such a train wreck after 2007 as many espouse, why would you forego 3 high draft choices, if you believe that success was 3 years down the track? That's not the actions of a side that's bottoming out. Would our list be any better in your eyes with Judd minus Morton, Grimes and Maric?

I don't believe that the current football dept. deemed that our list was a train wreck, simple as that.

I agree, but if our list was such a train wreck after 2007 as many espouse, why would you forego 3 high draft choices, if you believe that success was 3 years down the track? That's not the actions of a side that's bottoming out. Would our list be any better in your eyes with Judd minus Morton, Grimes and Maric?

With Judd your period to success would indeed be shorter as his impact would have been immediate in a number of areas that we can only hope the three players we have now can aspire to.

I don't believe that the current football dept. deemed that our list was a train wreck, simple as that.

You clearly would not and do not know and it clearly suits your unfounded angst to cling to such nonsense for whatever reason you carry on with it.

I think everyone needs to take a big deep breath.

We all have been watching footy for a long time & should have realised a few things;

i) There a heap of trades etc that are spoken about at this time of year - many of them dont come off for a variety of reasons.

ii) Nothing in football is a "done deal" until the contract has been lodged with the afl (even then, they have to ok it).

Yes, we can speculate (and some of us have informed opions, some dont) - but trade week is still a few weeks away.

The footy club does have some short commings on the playing list - but the coaching dept are working to get it right. Might not happen straight away - but it will eventually.

Why pursue Chris Judd?

Because he is what he is...that is, Chris Judd. If you have a chance to secure the best, when he even admitted a short list of his choice - including Melbourne, you explore avenues. It didn't work out, he chose VISY. End of Story.

I agree, but if our list was such a train wreck after 2007 as many espouse, why would you forego 3 high draft choices, if you believe that success was 3 years down the track? That's not the actions of a side that's bottoming out. Would our list be any better in your eyes with Judd minus Morton, Grimes and Maric?

I don't believe that the current football dept. deemed that our list was a train wreck, simple as that.

I think the biggest mistake you've made here is assuming the current coaching staff and administration WANTED TO 'bottom out'...

To me it doesn't look like a conscious decision, rather an inevitability.

With the list in the state it was when Baily & co inherited it, do you think they really had a choice?

Experienced players either at their peak or well past it... very few quality middle-age players... and many young inexperienced players with potential, but underperforming.

The key to winning a premiership, as I see it, is developing & managing your list and timing it right so that as many players as possible are at or around their peak at the one time. Then pray that injuries don't spoil your party.

Clearly this list development & management was done or just timed poorly, and it became evident early in 2007.

Just how poor a shape we'd been put in has started to really show as the last of the older players retire and leave us with precious little else.

THAT is the situation.

I think.

I think the biggest mistake you've made here is assuming the current coaching staff and administration WANTED TO 'bottom out'...

To me it doesn't look like a conscious decision, rather an inevitability.

With the list in the state it was when Baily & co inherited it, do you think they really had a choice?

Experienced players either at their peak or well past it... very few quality middle-age players... and many young inexperienced players with potential, but underperforming.

The key to winning a premiership, as I see it, is developing & managing your list and timing it right so that as many players as possible are at or around their peak at the one time. Then pray that injuries don't spoil your party.

Clearly this list development & management was done or just timed poorly, and it became evident early in 2007.

Just how poor a shape we'd been put in has started to really show as the last of the older players retire and leave us with precious little else.

THAT is the situation.

I think.

Correct. Well summed up. It was rather an inevitablity as you say.

Good Post The Shaft.

Correct. Well summed up. It was rather an inevitablity as you say.

Good Post The Shaft.

Cheers mate. Its nice to know i managed to get the point across in at least one of my posts... now what was this thread supposed to be about again?

I think the biggest mistake you've made here is assuming the current coaching staff and administration WANTED TO 'bottom out'...

To me it doesn't look like a conscious decision, rather an inevitability.

With the list in the state it was when Baily & co inherited it, do you think they really had a choice?

Experienced players either at their peak or well past it... very few quality middle-age players... and many young inexperienced players with potential, but underperforming.

The key to winning a premiership, as I see it, is developing & managing your list and timing it right so that as many players as possible are at or around their peak at the one time. Then pray that injuries don't spoil your party.

Clearly this list development & management was done or just timed poorly, and it became evident early in 2007.

Just how poor a shape we'd been put in has started to really show as the last of the older players retire and leave us with precious little else.

THAT is the situation.

I think.

I actually agree that the current football administration didn't want to bottom out, that's why they pursued Judd. And I agree with your sentiments regarding the keys to winning a premiership, except that you forgot to include "luck", which is a big factor.

Our downward spiral occurred when Daniher adopted a "run and carry" game plan in 2007. It was obvious to all and sundry that it didn't work with the list we had, so Daniher was duly dumped.

Bailey comes in and adopts the same game plan with the same list, and we played a brand of football that was as excruciating to watch as I've ever seen, and without fight.

That's the issue I have with the current football dept, and I won't accept the "bottoming out" argument as a crutch for our inept displays.

I actually agree that the current football administration didn't want to bottom out, that's why they pursued Judd. And I agree with your sentiments regarding the keys to winning a premiership, except that you forgot to include "luck", which is a big factor.

Our downward spiral occurred when Daniher adopted a "run and carry" game plan in 2007. It was obvious to all and sundry that it didn't work with the list we had, so Daniher was duly dumped.

Bailey comes in and adopts the same game plan with the same list, and we played a brand of football that was as excruciating to watch as I've ever seen, and without fight.

That's the issue I have with the current football dept, and I won't accept the "bottoming out" argument as a crutch for our inept displays.

Daniher adopted the run and carry game plan in '07 because the previous plan which suited the players at the time in '04-'06 was identified not to be enough for that next step and opposition sides were awake to this. Once he adopted the '07 plan, which mind you- is a good game plan if you have the quality players to make it effective- but it failed. And it has never been more evident again earlier this year.

Now, when it was evident this year that the side was still coming to grips with the game plan (and they still are), then key injuries took its toll, more young players were introduced and key senior players were approaching the end of their tether. Compounded by huge losses, and just 3 wins - all these factors are what is best described as Bottoming Out.

I actually agree that the current football administration didn't want to bottom out, that's why they pursued Judd. And I agree with your sentiments regarding the keys to winning a premiership, except that you forgot to include "luck", which is a big factor.

Our downward spiral occurred when Daniher adopted a "run and carry" game plan in 2007. It was obvious to all and sundry that it didn't work with the list we had, so Daniher was duly dumped.

Bailey comes in and adopts the same game plan with the same list, and we played a brand of football that was as excruciating to watch as I've ever seen, and without fight.

That's the issue I have with the current football dept, and I won't accept the "bottoming out" argument as a crutch for our inept displays.

I kinda inferred the luck thing with the 'pray for no injuries', but i guess you had to read between the lines on that one...

I saw Daniher's attempt at 'run & carry' as the efforts of a desperate man. The game evolved too fast and it was like one day he woke up and didn't understand the game anymore, so tried to copy the gameplan of the best teams out there.

FWIW i think Bailey's game plan is vastly different.

I think the main thing with Bailey is he has been true to his word and is trying to develop a team that will compete for a flag in the future, rather than trying to build a team to compete for 10th spot in the short-term.

I know this is a bit foreign as many coaches pledge to do this, but cave to pressure and do the opposite.

I have a lot of faith in Bailey, and so far I've not seen or heard him put a foot wrong.

I just wish others would recognize his efforts & have a bit more faith.

Honestly, after last season, and THEN losing Neitz, Yze & White, what the hell did ppl expect?

Have any of you paid attention to the tigers resurgence and how maligned Terry Wallace has been up until very recently??

Moves have to be made, and there is a strong chance Bruce or Green will be moved. I doubt both will be moved, as it would leave a hole in the already massive cavity that is our leadership.

If you want to make an omelet, you have to break some eggs.

......

Have any of you paid attention to the tigers resurgence and how maligned Terry Wallace has been up until very recently??

Took him 5 years. You might be happy to wait that long to finish 9th; not me.

Has Jeff White officially been cut yet?

Carlton did express interest and although no one else is likely to pick him up in the PSD, it would let Carlton keep their pick if he was included.

Might be able to use him as a sweetner

Highly doubtful they would ever trade away their number 6 draft pick for 2 aging players though, especially due to the apparent depth of this draft...

(not that they ever talk about how amazingly shallow a draft is, they're always touted as being deep)

Sydney want him.