So you address one point out of that, and one in which i even used quotation marks to underline how i didn't even believe it, I don't see this conversation going anywhere.

The priority pick has been a part of these great club cultures you speak of, the same Carlton team who cheated to win Premierships in the past. All teams have good and bad years, you have made it an impossible task for the MFC to be seen as having a good culture as you've outlined no criteria and no course of action to get there.

Other than that you're only sprouting rhetoric about a mythical "good culture"

So you address one point out of that, and one in which i even used quotation marks to underline how i didn't even believe it, I don't see this conversation going anywhere.

The priority pick has been a part of these great club cultures you speak of, the same Carlton team who cheated to win Premierships in the past. All teams have good and bad years, you have made it an impossible task for the MFC to be seen as having a good culture as you've outlined no criteria and no course of action to get there.

Other than that you're only sprouting rhetoric about a mythical "good culture"

The Afl set up the Draft in its present form so clubs would be winning flags around every 12-15 years. Thats the basic theory. In that time we have been belted senseless twice. We were not competitive in the 88 or 2000 on the day, North Melbourne who survive in a siiliar fashion to us have won 4 flags (2 under the Current Draft Rules) and are again challenging. When Carey Stuffed up and got the Arse I honestly thought that was it for North, they wouldn't beat this one, but they have sofar proved me wrong. There is a very strong bond at North, & i don't think its been at melbourne for a long time (Losing twice to Carlton in 2006 was a perfect example.....

Until you can use hindsight, there is no reason to suggest the Roos team is different to Melbourne of '02, 04-6.

North have so far lost to an inept Freo and an out of sorts St Kilda. Even Carlton in their last premiership team of '95 had lost to Sydney and St. Kilda, who hadn't won nearly as many games as Carlton did that year between them. So chosing 2 games in any given year is a rubbish way to "prove" the culture of a club.

I ask yet again, how do you think Melbourne can establish this "good culture" you speak of.

North had a great list of players and coaches throughout the 90's, and if we'd have converted 2 Premierships (one lucky that Essendon choked) out of 9 attemps you'd probably claim it as have a "bad culture"

We've won 12 of 17 Grand Finals (not including the tie), and 12 of our first 15, I could claim our Grand Final culture is the best in the AFL of the original teams, but I don't beause i realise it's not that simple.

Will you this time address what you would like to change and how, or will you simply state that we lose games we shouldn't on occassion and other teams have awesome "club culture" without attempting to address the MFC?

Until you can use hindsight, there is no reason to suggest the Roos team is different to Melbourne of '02, 04-6.

North have so far lost to an inept Freo and an out of sorts St Kilda. Even Carlton in their last premiership team of '95 had lost to Sydney and St. Kilda, who hadn't won nearly as many games as Carlton did that year between them. So chosing 2 games in any given year is a rubbish way to "prove" the culture of a club.

I ask yet again, how do you think Melbourne can establish this "good culture" you speak of.

North had a great list of players and coaches throughout the 90's, and if we'd have converted 2 Premierships (one lucky that Essendon choked) out of 9 attemps you'd probably claim it as have a "bad culture"

We've won 12 of 17 Grand Finals (not including the tie), and 12 of our first 15, I could claim our Grand Final culture is the best in the AFL of the original teams, but I don't beause i realise it's not that simple.

Will you this time address what you would like to change and how, or will you simply state that we lose games we shouldn't on occassion and other teams have awesome "club culture" without attempting to address the MFC?

I think losing games to weak opposition is exactly the problem. Yes we did have a great "Grand Final" Culture and that is exactly what i want to get back. Being thrown out of the MCC & losing the 'G as a training venue was a Major Stuff Up that should never have Happened. I Believe The MFC has been Pushed an pulled by everyone else since larger $$ Came into the game. By Being Passive we lost our Identity. That is the culture i am talking of. The Kangaroos have made the most of their opportunities even tho i hate them. We have not.

Until you can use hindsight, there is no reason to suggest the Roos team is different to Melbourne of '02, 04-6.

North have so far lost to an inept Freo and an out of sorts St Kilda. Even Carlton in their last premiership team of '95 had lost to Sydney and St. Kilda, who hadn't won nearly as many games as Carlton did that year between them. So chosing 2 games in any given year is a rubbish way to "prove" the culture of a club.

I ask yet again, how do you think Melbourne can establish this "good culture" you speak of.

North had a great list of players and coaches throughout the 90's, and if we'd have converted 2 Premierships (one lucky that Essendon choked) out of 9 attemps you'd probably claim it as have a "bad culture"

We've won 12 of 17 Grand Finals (not including the tie), and 12 of our first 15, I could claim our Grand Final culture is the best in the AFL of the original teams, but I don't beause i realise it's not that simple.

Will you this time address what you would like to change and how, or will you simply state that we lose games we shouldn't on occassion and other teams have awesome "club culture" without attempting to address the MFC?

45HG - a winning culture does not mean that a club is successful all the time. It will take its turn and run through the cycle as all clubs do. However, a club with a winning culture will always clearly understand where they are and make tough decisions to ensure that they get back to give them every opportunity to have another crack at a premiership. We have made the finals many times since 1987 and got smashed in two grand finals. Instead of coming back bigger, stronger, tougher and more determined we have faded away. A winning culture is uncompromising and only premiership success is real success. At the MFC making finals has been considered success. Half the competition make the finals - what a joke!

Take two interstate clubs - Port Adelaide and Adelaide. PA have a culture of success - no question. Their coach has said its what we do at Port Adelaide - we win grand finals. Sure they graciously took our grand final defeat record off us but they have already one won premiership after only a few years in the competition.

Adelaide on the other hand have hardly ever bottomed out during their time in the AFL and they again do not accept mediocrity.

Carlton have a winning culture. They cheated the salary cap, they tanked to get good draft picks and lied about all of it. They are the LCT's! They have bottomed out but they do all of these things because they have an unrelenting passion to be the best.

WYL referred to the Hawthorn culture. They bottomed out and relentlessly pursued a youth policy and now it is paying dividends.

The North culture is an interesting one. They have the shinboner/working man/tough as nails/backs to the wall/underdog culture. They give full value for money at that club.

Essendon is obviously a very powerful club that again demands success.

All of those clubs referred to above have won 25 of the last 37 premierships.

45HG you ask how can Melbourne establish a good culture. It can't start from the supporters. We are a bunch of un-cordinated unrepresented individuals who love the club. It must start from the president down. Every external communication that comes from the club must be passionate, direct and unrelenting in its theme that we are proud, we hate our current situation and we WILL change it. The club must repeatedly send out that message. They must show leadership in making tough decisions (eg Jeff White sacking etc). They must no longer tolerate on field "lame" performances. We can get killed on the field but every single player must fight hard and be proud in defeat. They must have a huge work ethic to compensate for lack of ability. All of this comes from the top down.

As supporters we certainly can do our bit. We need to show our passion by turning up, financially assisting the club and supporting social events. And as we start to improve lets get ugly and lets get arrogant. We need to change the Range Rover, off to the snow image. We want other supporters to hate us because we are arrogant and have no time for anyone other than our team.

45HG - a winning culture does not mean that a club is successful all the time. It will take its turn and run through the cycle as all clubs do. However, a club with a winning culture will always clearly understand where they are and make tough decisions to ensure that they get back to give them every opportunity to have another crack at a premiership. We have made the finals many times since 1987 and got smashed in two grand finals. Instead of coming back bigger, stronger, tougher and more determined we have faded away. A winning culture is uncompromising and only premiership success is real success. At the MFC making finals has been considered success. Half the competition make the finals - what a joke!

Take two interstate clubs - Port Adelaide and Adelaide. PA have a culture of success - no question. Their coach has said its what we do at Port Adelaide - we win grand finals. Sure they graciously took our grand final defeat record off us but they have already one won premiership after only a few years in the competition.

Adelaide on the other hand have hardly ever bottomed out during their time in the AFL and they again do not accept mediocrity.

Carlton have a winning culture. They cheated the salary cap, they tanked to get good draft picks and lied about all of it. They are the LCT's! They have bottomed out but they do all of these things because they have an unrelenting passion to be the best.

WYL referred to the Hawthorn culture. They bottomed out and relentlessly pursued a youth policy and now it is paying dividends.

The North culture is an interesting one. They have the shinboner/working man/tough as nails/backs to the wall/underdog culture. They give full value for money at that club.

Essendon is obviously a very powerful club that again demands success.

All of those clubs referred to above have won 25 of the last 37 premierships.

45HG you ask how can Melbourne establish a good culture. It can't start from the supporters. We are a bunch of un-cordinated unrepresented individuals who love the club. It must start from the president down. Every external communication that comes from the club must be passionate, direct and unrelenting in its theme that we are proud, we hate our current situation and we WILL change it. The club must repeatedly send out that message. They must show leadership in making tough decisions (eg Jeff White sacking etc). They must no longer tolerate on field "lame" performances. We can get killed on the field but every single player must fight hard and be proud in defeat. They must have a huge work ethic to compensate for lack of ability. All of this comes from the top down.

As supporters we certainly can do our bit. We need to show our passion by turning up, financially assisting the club and supporting social events. And as we start to improve lets get ugly and lets get arrogant. We need to change the Range Rover, off to the snow image. We want other supporters to hate us because we are arrogant and have no time for anyone other than our team.

Thanks Pello what you have written is EXACTLY what i mean-i was at work last night & didn't have time to write such a long answer! Cheers

I disagree. Clubs with good coaches and good players and good facilities make finals. Clubs where more than one of these are bad don't make finals often. Clubs where more than one of these are great win Premierships. To me, it's that simple.

I disagree. Clubs with good coaches and good players and good facilities make finals. Clubs where more than one of these are bad don't make finals often. Clubs where more than one of these are great win Premierships. To me, it's that simple.

Well, based on that we're way off at present. We may have the "good coaches" but that could be debatable , the players and facilities part we'll have to fix.

Last Saturdays game totally summed up our lack of culture at present. How Much work Stynes Shwabb and all of us have in front of us. I didnt expect to win, but i did expect a bit of a fight. Yes we had half a side in, the rest being young Raw Players-but so did Port Power. And we as a club should have been on more equal terms on that oval. I was embarrassed & had to go for a walk.

That said yesterday I paid my MCC?MFC Membership for next year. I am optimistic but it truly is now or never. The days of the MFC being percieved as soft must Cease. I am very Happy to Have Cameron S back as CEO, what he has done to the Shockers off field is Remarkable.

Last Saturdays game totally summed up our lack of culture at present. How Much work Stynes Shwabb and all of us have in front of us. I didnt expect to win, but i did expect a bit of a fight. Yes we had half a side in, the rest being young Raw Players-but so did Port Power. And we as a club should have been on more equal terms on that oval. I was embarrassed & had to go for a walk.

You're not the only one. I had to turn over to the Olympics....then turn back to see if it was just a nightmare....it was.

Can we clone a Burgoyne or two? <_<

We should ask not only to play in Adelaide, but also never play in Adelaide!!

I read Bell (?) saying that he felt in the first ten minutes it was like the game was over

Really, not good enough. It feels like that watching us interstate, we jut never look like we're a show. Can never put my finger on it, maybe it's the Foxtel camera angle that always makes everything looks so hard, but it just feels every time i watch us at Adelaide it's over straight away, and that Crows/Power goals will be inevitable.

We need a playing/leadership group that can lift itself and turn around poor onfield performances. We need Green and a fit Mclean IMO for the leaders, surrounded by a group of players determined to put forward consistent onfield performance and application

I feel the offield wheel is finally starting to turn, and hopefully in a few years when their mechanisms are in place we can have onfield success to build again.

I believe that the Culture of the Melbourne Football Club CAN change!

It's just about instilling a sense of PRIDE, PASSION and RUTHLESSNESS in the jumper! Having the view that near enough is NOT good enough!

Make losing NOT acceptable under any circumstances!

Going hard at the ball and never, ever giving up!

I hope all the players read the book "The Red Fox" which is about Norm Smith's life.

They may learn a bit about how Norm Smith instilled a winning culture into the MFC that unfortunately left when he left as well.

We have seen glimpses of it coming back over the years. But it will take a hell of a lot more effort from not just the playing group but the entire club (including us as supporters) to create a NEW winning culture.

I have my faith in Jimmy Stynes and Co. in finally rectifying this problem.

Let's hope we also create a NEW generation of Demon heroes and champion players that can lead us to Premiership glory.

WYL,

if you're that keen to help change the MFC culture, as i believe you are, may i suggest writing to the club about our new clash design strip.

I'm not sure what you think about it, but personally i cannot see how our club can establish itself as a powerful and proud club if we so easily give into AFL requests and turn against our proud history.

Perhaps we would not win the fight, but i feel it would be worth fighting for. To help establish ourselves again as a club that stands for something and will not only respect it's own past, but be strong enough to determine our own future

I'm not sure what you think about it, but personally i cannot see how our club can establish itself as a powerful and proud club if we so easily give into AFL requests and turn against our proud history.

You can still establish a club as a powerful and proud club regardless of whether they have an alternative clash jumper or not.

Not if you don't stand for anything you won't.

As I have said earlier on in this thread every external communication that comes from the club must be passionate, direct and unrelenting in its theme that we are a proud club. So here presents Jimmy and the board an opportunity to show supporters, members and the general football public that we aren't going to be pushed around any longer. We are proud of our club, our history and our jumper and our colours are RED AND BLUE! We have no white in our strip and I don't care what parameters the AFL put around alternative strips a Red jumper with the MFC or demon logo will not clash with any other team.

They bloody well let Essendon simply widen their sash so they can let us wear a red jumper with a blue logo!

Time to stand up and begin the culture change!

Not if you don't stand for anything you won't.

Rubbish. Look at Geelong.

Make losing NOT acceptable under any circumstances!

So what's your views on a club "Bottoming out" or "playing the kids"?

IMO, these phrases are a cop-out for coaches.

because the cats aren't a unified group who still play at their traditional home ground...

This is a perfect chance for the club to stand up and make itself, and the club, counted. Seems we've missed the boat though. I hope future matters when the afl tries to push our club around they present themselves in a professional and upright manner pushing our own agenda, not yielding to other people's designs

So what's your views on a club "Bottoming out" or "playing the kids"?

IMO, these phrases are a cop-out for coaches.

They may be considered by some to be a cop-out for coaches, including your opinion. However, how else is a club meant to get kids experience. It's by playing them, throwing them in the deep end and seeing if they'll swim..so they do "play the kids", as has DB with Martin, Garland, Maric, Wonaeamirri, etc.

Bottoming out is just a phrase that can be used to describe exactly what the Mfc is going through. Alot of senior players are finishing up, alot of new kids are coming in and learning the game plan and are not able to compete with stronger clubs. Hence "Bottoming Out!"

Football followers understand the phrases. It's not a cop out, more often than not its just reality.

WYL,

if you're that keen to help change the MFC culture, as i believe you are, may i suggest writing to the club about our new clash design strip.

I'm not sure what you think about it, but personally i cannot see how our club can establish itself as a powerful and proud club if we so easily give into AFL requests and turn against our proud history.

Perhaps we would not win the fight, but i feel it would be worth fighting for. To help establish ourselves again as a club that stands for something and will not only respect it's own past, but be strong enough to determine our own future

You are right 45 My opinion of both those "away" strips is utter contempt! Both of them are predominantly WHITE. We are not Footscray. We as a clubmust become financially stable so as The AFL cannot just push us around. At present we are on the AFL Drip feed-It must stop. I shall be ringing the club tonight!!! ..........Grrrr

I shall be ringing the club tonight!!! ..........Grrrr

Why don't you do it today, whilst their still manning the phones? You will get message service tonight.