Anyone for cricket?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

What are your grounds for claiming that? He had a lengthy time out, but for the latter half of the Shield season he was a regular feature. His form isn't much at the moment, but there's not much doubt about his fitness. I expect that within the next 12 months he'll be pressing for Test selection once again.

It's a hot air claim at best. Despite a couple of glitches I think Haddin has been good this series. Keeping has not been the problem here.

Agreed with analogies of the batting with MFCs midfield.

And enough has been said about the meccano Watson. Arrogant selfish and deluded. Surely but surely he might have learnt something when he had Cook LBW and Cook considered but did not challenge. Watson decision was a text book fault that has been repeated time and time again. There was no basis beyond ego referring the decision. His dismissal and referral sowed the seeds.

And Clarke's captaincy has been inspired. I find it difficult to hold him responsible for wing nuts like Warner and Watson. At 32, this could be Watsons last series in a baggy green. I guess he has a chance to make amends when England set us 500+ to chase. You would have to think his cards must be heavily marked already.

Unbelievable that we have effectively snuffed our Ashes quest in one session and one ball of total stupidity and incompetence.

But we'll done Peter Siddle on the start of a fight back. But hell we are so far behind and England have not played that well.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I reckon Australian cricket suffered a near death experience overnight. Our batting line up is like Melbourne's midfield - third world. We wasted the last couple of summers and failed to bring in a proper succession plan to replace the likes of Ponting and Hussey. Send Warner home, call up Doolan and (I'm doing a Caro here) sack Inverarity.

IMO Jack, the direction is now forward, off the field. but what we're witnessing is the results of the last few years of Off field efforts & poor judgement from the administrators.. be careful who you wish for.

the previous Australian cricket culture,,, of many greats included, Warne, Mcgrath, Taylor, Gilchrist etc, didn't need a culture shift...

but I think the ACB administrators decided a shake up was in order, at a time of a changing world...

they got it wrong for a group where a combative nature is required... IMO this is where the similarity to the MFC is... they were in danger of becoming what we've been for 45 years.

.... fancy having a south african, plus a suit & tie, telling us how we should be culturally, out on the cricket battlefield.... to me This, is where the conflicts began. & with the changing of the leadership guard, leaving behind a vacuum of onfield generals that leaves the teams nature up for grabs.

... create the wrong nature/environs & the newcomers won't know where they fit in, & the results can be a mess.

I think the winning old guard have returned to rebalance the good ship Australia... I trust the works now being done. although I don't think they have the batting lineup right, IMO.

...

I don't think Khawaja is ready yet, for the top order, & certainly Not hughes. to me both middle order. Hughes should never bat ahead of Clarke except as a run-dash.

I'd bat Smith ahead of both of them atmo, in the lineup. I just think smith is more composed at the minute for a 3 or 4 berth. I wonder if one day, Smith & Agar could both bat before No5 ?

this would steady our middle order imo. & we could slowly rejig our top order.

[jazza 1,323]

smith at this stage doesn't have the temperament to play long innings at any ground and situation, this will come with patience

aussie selctors spoke to doctors about paines hand, the result was he could probably get away with playing shield cricket, but to keep to 3 fast bowlers for 100 overs and back it up a day later , and then in the next test match which is usually 3 days away , would be doubtful.

if you follow cricket you will realise its not as bad at shield level as being overseas and lasting 2 tests and your hand wont allow you to play the 3rd. also the level of bowlers is at a higher continuos standard for longer than shield cricket

questions about clarkes leadership not batsmanship go back several years to the katich , ponting lara, symonds incident, it was said to be the break up of the aussie team which gilly also made comment about.

whilst not my favourite, Clarke just doesn't know how to lead and the selectors now have a burden of nobody to step into the leadership role and they are stuck with him

at least we know the bowling will stand us in good stead for the next 10 years , so that's a bonus

almost forgot, the marsh boys were in a bit of ben cousins trouble that has hindered their aca contracts

Edited July 20, 2013 by jazza

[titan_uranus 25,020]

But we'll done Peter Siddle on the start of a fight back. But hell we are so far behind and England have not played that well.

I think that's the damning point - I don't think England are playing that well at all. Cook and Pietersen are struggling, Trott's had two ducks already, Root's not firing like he was going into the series, and Prior's struggling too. All they've had with the bat is Bell (outstanding so far) and helpful but not huge contributions from others (e.g. Trott, Broad in the first Test, Bairstow in the second). Bowling-wise, Anderson obviously has stood out, but even though Swann took a 5-for, he didn't really bowl as well has he has in the past.

We are just awful. Our shot selection essentially killed off our whole innings (Watson, Rogers, Khawaja, Hughes, Smith, Haddin all got out to poor shots, and Clarke didn't deal well with the bouncer-yorker combo).

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I think that's the damning point - I don't think England are playing that well at all. Cook and Pietersen are struggling, Trott's had two ducks already, Root's not firing like he was going into the series, and Prior's struggling too. All they've had with the bat is Bell (outstanding so far) and helpful but not huge contributions from others (e.g. Trott, Broad in the first Test, Bairstow in the second). Bowling-wise, Anderson obviously has stood out, but even though Swann took a 5-for, he didn't really bowl as well has he has in the past.

We are just awful. Our shot selection essentially killed off our whole innings (Watson, Rogers, Khawaja, Hughes, Smith, Haddin all got out to poor shots, and Clarke didn't deal well with the bouncer-yorker combo).

I think thats right. And you could possibly add Australia's diabolical handling of the DRS.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

questions about clarkes leadership not batsmanship go back several years to the katich , ponting lara, symonds incident, it was said to be the break up of the aussie team which gilly also made comment about.

whilst not my favourite, Clarke just doesn't know how to lead and the selectors now have a burden of nobody to step into the leadership role and they are stuck with him

Clarke left a post match function early to be with that ditz Lara Bingle. That says nothing about leadership. If thats the beef with Michael Clarke then its small beer indeed.

The Symond incident was actually an issue about Pontings leadership and judgement.

But lets not undermine a shallow piece of muckraking.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

almost forgot, the marsh boys were in a bit of ben cousins trouble that has hindered their aca contracts

Its now endemic in Australian cricket that talented players cant control themselves in public.....

Watson

Warner

Pomersbach

Marsh brothers

But its Clarkes leadership ......

[MadAsHell 4,212]

This article sums it up well, I think.

Well you've pretty much thrown out the entire side. A bit OTT, maybe?

The players who, IMO, need to be replaced are Watson, Khawaja, Hughes and Smith. Problem is, we don't have enough batsmen in Australia to fill four spots at once.

Warner shouldn't play Test cricket again (not because of behaviour, but because he's simply not good enough). Cowan probably isn't good enough. Shaun Marsh I still rate, but he can't make the Australia A side at the moment. Maxwell and Henriques are those classic players Australia's been attempting to find for a while now - all-rounders who aren't good enough at either trade. Doolan made a 50 in the Australia A side and has made some runs, but he seems a limited batsman and hasn't done a whole lot to warrant selection.

Matthew Wade could be a left-field selection, as a batsman only. His batting is better than the four I mentioned above. Probably not the best move, but we're that short on batsmen it's not completely out of the question.

Half the side, not the entire side, and sadly I don't think it's over the top if we were to loose 5-0 after loosing 4-0 in India.

Cowan I agree isn't good enough

Watson despite his talent has had such an extended run and only has 2 test hundreds and an average in the mid 30's. If on top of that he does cause friction within the team well then he should be let go.

Warner has that x factor about him, but one has to question whether he'll ever have the ability to be a consistent test player. It may be worth cutting our losses and letting him concerntrate on the shorter forms.

Rogers & Haddin as I mentioned would be stiff to be moved on but it would simply be part of a bigger picture.

Hughes & Khawaja as I said because of their age I'd be willing to give them a go as first pair to have a crack as the opening combo but the likes of Maddinson, Silk & Doolan should also be considered there.

I'm amazed you rate Shaun Marsh TU. This is a guy in his late 20's who only average around 37 at first class level. If he can't establish himself as a top batsman in Shield cricket I can't see him doing it at international level. As you said Henriques & Maxwell are both project players and will probably be in competition with Mitch Marsh for the long term all rounder role. Reckon Marsh & Maxwell have the inside track due to their younger age but we'll see. Doolan, like Shaun Marsh only averages about 38, however at least he's seems to have averaged over 40 for the last two years, so he seems to be coming into his best. And as has been mentioned, George Bailey shouldn't be discounted as he brings a lot to the table.

But for some good news, Australia A knocked off Zimbabwe by 80 runs in their 3 day match.

Australia A 1st Innings 226

M. Henriques 71

K. Jarvis 4/54 (16)

Zimbabwe 1st Innings 142

M. Waller 25

F. Ahmed 4/54 (11.5)

Australia A 2nd Innings 156

A. Doolan 52

E. Chigumbura 4/26 (10)

Zimbabwe 2nd Innings 160 (Target 241)

H. Masakadza 69

F. Ahmed 4/23 (11)

Well done also to Fawad Ahmed who ended with match figures of 8/77 off 22.5 overs. and Pat Cummins who took 4/43 off 19 overs in his comeback.

[MadAsHell 4,212]

Matthew Wade could be a left-field selection, as a batsman only. His batting is better than the four I mentioned above. Probably not the best move, but we're that short on batsmen it's not completely out of the question.

Forgot to comment on this bit. You may be onto something there. Wade's first class batting average is better then the likes of Marsh, Doolan, Ferguson, Bailey etc and we've already seen that he can make centuries at this level and knuckle down and bat time when required also, but can explode when need be at the same time.

Brendon McCullum's now a specialist batsman with New Zealand, so maybe Wade could become that for Australia. We've got a tour match against Hove I think after this test. If Wade plays and makes runs maybe they'll consider bringing him into the middle order somewhere?

[MadAsHell 4,212]

Tea on Day 3

England 1st Innings 361

I. Bell 109
J. Bairstow 67

R. Harris 5/72 (26)
S. Smith 3/18 (6)

Australia 1st Innings 128

S. Watson 30
M. Clarke 28

G. Swann 5/44 (21.3)
T. Bresnan 2/28 (7)

England 2nd Innings 4/171

J. Root 97*
T. Bresnan 38

P. Siddle 3/51 (19)
J. Pattinson 1/24 (18)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we've had no luck at all since the tea break on Day 2 of the first test. How the third umpire gave Bell not out for Smith catch off Harris is nothing short of a farce!

Can't see us bowling them out within another 15 runs unfortunatly, and the way it's going I can see them looking to set us 550-600 odd to win and we'll need to bat the best part of two days to save the test. Maybe at some point over those two days we can get some luck. And maybe all our players should refuse to walk, even when it's caught down at long on!

[MadAsHell 4,212]

Continuing on our theme of our terrible batting line up and potential changes that can be made going forward, below is a list of what I reckon would be the leading contenders from the selectors of batsmen that could be brought in if need be. Some of them have played test cricket already, but to try and compare across an even playing field I've just put up everyones first class averages. I've put in 11 batsmen and 4 all rounders and sadly the stats show how little we have in reserves. Hopefully the list comes up ok?

PLAYER AGE MATCHES 50's 100's AVG WKTS AVG

(BATSMEN)

George Bailey 30 96 30 14 38.29 N/A N/A

Jo Burns 23 32 9 5 39.52 N/A N/A

Tom Cooper 26 29 10 2 33.47 8 61.00

Mark Cosgrove 29 120 49 22 43.22 40 42.07

Alex Doolan 27 45 16 5 38.66 N/A N/A

Callum Ferguson 28 72 25 8 36.05 N/A N/A

Nic Maddinson 21 26 6 5 38.29 2 30.00

Shaun Marsh 30 77 25 7 35.77 2 65.50

Jordan Silk 21 5 1 2 42.30 N/A N/A

Adam Voges 33 133 45 16 40.61 42 34.64

Matthew Wade 25 67 22 6 39.68 N/A N/A

(ALLROUNDERS)

James Faulkner 23 36 8 0 29.90 131 22.63

Moises Henriques 26 45 15 1 31.80 85 27.49

Mitch Marsh 21 25 5 1 21.27 36 25.88

Glenn Maxwell 24 18 9 1 37.46 34 33.38

Going through that list of players I reckon the most credentialed player would have to be Mark Cosgrove. Still only 29 and has over 20 first class 100's and nearly 50 50's! We all know about some of his fitness issues, but I tell you what with the state our batting's in, as long as he fits in and helps provide a happy dressing room then surely he'd have to be close to getting a gig on the return leg if we loose 5-0 here!?

[MadAsHell 4,212]

Stumps on Day 3

England 1st Innings 361

I. Bell 109
J. Bairstow 67

R. Harris 5/72 (26)
S. Smith 3/18 (6)

Australia 1st Innings 128

S. Watson 30
M. Clarke 28

G. Swann 5/44 (21.3)
T. Bresnan 2/28 (7)

England 2nd Innings 5/333

J. Root 178*
I. Bell 74

P. Siddle 3/65 (21)
J. Pattinson 1/42 (20)

Disaster! That is all.

[jazza 1,323]

Clarke left a post match function early to be with that ditz Lara Bingle. That says nothing about leadership. If thats the beef with Michael Clarke then its small beer indeed.

The Symond incident was actually an issue about Pontings leadership and judgement.

But lets not undermine a shallow piece of muckraking.

forgot about that incident that was meaningless

was talking about LEADERSHIP

the symonds lara katich ,CLARKE incident was in change rooms at brizzy, nothing to do with ponting leadership maybe

we all may like Clarke , we may enjoy his sometimes skillfull batting ,but your getting all of that mixed up with LEADERSHIP

as I said , its not his fault , but put quite simply he is not a leader

I will leave the MUCKRAKING for Robbie f

Edited July 21, 2013 by jazza

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

forgot about that incident that was meaningless

was talking about LEADERSHIP

the symonds lara katich ,CLARKE incident was in change rooms at brizzy, nothing to do with ponting leadership maybe

we all may like Clarke , we may enjoy his sometimes skillfull batting ,but your getting all of that mixed up with LEADERSHIP

as I said , its not his fault , but put quite simply he is not a leader

I will leave the MUCKRAKING for Robbie f

And you have given nothing on LEADERSHIP except innuendo.

And FWIW I would discount any issue of leadership when Symonds and Lara are involved.

[jazza 1,323]

And you have given nothing on LEADERSHIP except innuendo.

And FWIW I would discount any issue of leadership when Symonds and Lara are involved.

well he couldn't pull Watson and warner into line for starters

mitch johnson was another one the acb had to drop because MC couldn't handle his outbursts on the last ashes tour

katich was regarded as the most proficient batsmen in the world for 2 years and all of a sudden was dropped , it WAS the lara symonds Clarke blue that katich stepped in and tried to be open and clear the air , Clarke made the comment either I play IPL for a million dollars or I stay in the aussie team, he goes or I go

the aussie selectors chose Clarke, big error they thought he was a leader and have found out hes just a batsmen at best

btw rhino, don't want to argue with or upset you

just seeing where we are at and why,

as usual very depressing, its gonna take 4/6 years to rebuild

Edited July 21, 2013 by jazza

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Continuing on our theme of our terrible batting line up and potential changes that can be made going forward, below is a list of what I reckon would be the leading contenders from the selectors of batsmen that could be brought in if need be. Some of them have played test cricket already, but to try and compare across an even playing field I've just put up everyones first class averages. I've put in 11 batsmen and 4 all rounders and sadly the stats show how little we have in reserves. Hopefully the list comes up ok?

PLAYER AGE MATCHES 50's 100's AVG WKTS AVG

(BATSMEN)

George Bailey 30 96 30 14 38.29 N/A N/A

Jo Burns 23 32 9 5 39.52 N/A N/A

Tom Cooper 26 29 10 2 33.47 8 61.00

Mark Cosgrove 29 120 49 22 43.22 40 42.07

Alex Doolan 27 45 16 5 38.66 N/A N/A

Callum Ferguson 28 72 25 8 36.05 N/A N/A

Nic Maddinson 21 26 6 5 38.29 2 30.00

Shaun Marsh 30 77 25 7 35.77 2 65.50

Jordan Silk 21 5 1 2 42.30 N/A N/A

Adam Voges 33 133 45 16 40.61 42 34.64

Matthew Wade 25 67 22 6 39.68 N/A N/A

(ALLROUNDERS)

James Faulkner 23 36 8 0 29.90 131 22.63

Moises Henriques 26 45 15 1 31.80 85 27.49

Mitch Marsh 21 25 5 1 21.27 36 25.88

Glenn Maxwell 24 18 9 1 37.46 34 33.38

Going through that list of players I reckon the most credentialed player would have to be Mark Cosgrove. Still only 29 and has over 20 first class 100's and nearly 50 50's! We all know about some of his fitness issues, but I tell you what with the state our batting's in, as long as he fits in and helps provide a happy dressing room then surely he'd have to be close to getting a gig on the return leg if we loose 5-0 here!?

This information should temper those that have Warner is a "never" for Test. We don't have the luxury.

Yes, he's been a goose and a big head in recent months but hopefully he has room to change his ways.

But IMO, repeat offenders like Watson, Hughes are in the gun.

There was a batting lesson given by a 22yo today but I doubt whether the egos in the Australian batting will learn it.

England will probably bat for most of the 1st session and set Australia 600+ to win. England will have 5 sessions to bowl us out.

The pressure will be right off the Australian bats. They can't win. So go out there and build an innings. And heaven help those batsman that repeat the stupidity of day 2.

[jazza 1,323]

This information should temper those that have Warner is a "never" for Test. We don't have the luxury.

Yes, he's been a goose and a big head in recent months but hopefully he has room to change his ways.

But IMO, repeat offenders like Watson, Hughes are in the gun.

There was a batting lesson given by a 22yo today but I doubt whether the egos in the Australian batting will learn it.

England will probably bat for most of the 1st session and set Australia 600+ to win. England will have 5 sessions to bowl us out.

The pressure will be right off the Australian bats. They can't win. So go out there and build an innings. And heaven help those batsman that repeat the stupidity of day 2.

reckon your right

also not sure about cowan, I think as an opener at least he made the seeing off the new ball his priority

whilst the cupboard is bare we will have to put up with some average rubbish players and that's the nature of our shield atm

one major problem has been the big bash, local players are now willing to hang around into old age because playing shield also gives them a chance at a BB contract which pays a lot of bills for 30 yo average cricketers, hence stopping them from getting out of shield to be replaced by youngsters

also wondering will warner or the leg spinner be on plane back from sth Africa?

Edited July 21, 2013 by jazza

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

well he couldn't pull Watson and warner into line for starters

mitch johnson was another one the acb had to drop because MC couldn't handle his outbursts on the last ashes tour

katich was regarded as the most proficient batsmen in the world for 2 years and all of a sudden was dropped , it WAS the lara symonds Clarke blue that katich stepped in and tried to be open and clear the air , Clarke made the comment either I play IPL for a million dollars or I stay in the aussie team, he goes or I go

the aussie selectors chose Clarke, big error they thought he was a leader and have found out hes just a batsmen at best

btw rhino, don't want to argue with or upset you

just seeing where we are at and why,

as usual very depressing, its gonna take 4/6 years to rebuild

Warners issues are Warners and Clarke should not have to be his wet nurse the same goes for Watson.

Mitch Johnson is a perennial head case that has been countless opportunities to perform at Test level and failed. He was dropped from the Ashes Tests because he repeatedly bowled poorly.

All you have done is tried to smear Clarke with innuendo and hearsay and dressed it up as "LEADERSHIP" yet given no plausible or informed argument as to why Clarke has failed.

I agree on the long rebuild.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

That catch that was turned down by the third umpire was disgraceful. Far too many poor umpiring decisions for what is supposed to be the most important Test series of the year.

Doesn't make much difference to our ineptitude, though. The pitch is a road, but the bowling wasn't very good. Pattinson's having an absolute shocker, might not hold his spot for the next match.

Agar's also not good enough. His 98 makes it hard to drop him, but his bowling isn't close to Test quality. Again, that 98 makes this sound unfair, but he shouldn't have been picked in the first place.

[Biffen 12,943]

Warners issues are Warners and Clarke should not have to be his wet nurse the same goes for Watson.

Mitch Johnson is a perennial head case that has been countless opportunities to perform at Test level and failed. He was dropped from the Ashes Tests because he repeatedly bowled poorly.

All you have done is tried to smear Clarke with innuendo and hearsay and dressed it up as "LEADERSHIP" yet given no plausible or informed argument as to why Clarke has failed.

I agree on the long rebuild.

Clarke smears himself.

Cannot take a joke or handle different personalities.

He is a great batsman on a flat track under no pressure but he is no skipper.

How can you leave a tour just because you have found out Fev was rooting your Fiance?

His countless issues with other players shows he is a little sook .

Clarke has failed so many times to step up to the leadership role(which involves more than saying the right things to James Sutherland)that he should be sacked .

We will be 2-0 after tonight.

He lost the first test due to the DRS in which Cook out-thought him.

He is not making runs.He has a dodgy back and a weak personality.

[45HG 1,539]

Watson - what a hack.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

Watson - what a hack.

He's a one-dimensional fail of a Test player.

Another useless, standard Watson innings. 20 off 23, out LBW.

Get him out.

[Nasher 33,616]

He's a one-dimensional fail of a Test player.

Another useless, standard Watson innings. 20 off 23, out LBW.

Get him out.

Quick, rush Ed Cowan back!

We're gone. The cupboard is completely bare. It's the Aussie equivalent of out: Pedersen in: Dunn.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

It's actually worrying. We have one Test quality batsman in the entire country (Clarke).

There are 0 players not in this squad who are threatening to become a Test player, whilst the current side is made up of barely first class talent.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Agar's also not good enough. His 98 makes it hard to drop him, but his bowling isn't close to Test quality. Again, that 98 makes this sound unfair, but he shouldn't have been picked in the first place.

His selection was a reflection of what he was up against. There are reasonable and valid doubts about Lyon at Test level.

His bowling in the 1st test was good when there was some ability to put some pressure on. He has been hung out to dry by the batting clowns in this Test.

He is only 19 and has a future in Test cricket. Watson and Hughes don't.