Dees2014

Where do they get this nonsense from? WADA has full authority to override ASADA whenever they choose via CAS. I can tell you McDevitt has absolutely no intention of apologising to WADA or anyone else. ASADA has been impeccable in both its integrity and thoroughness in the whole affair, and WADA regard them as a shining light for the world to follow. It is a pity the local critics do not recognise what an excellent organisation we have here, in spite of the government trying to starve them of funds and joining in the Hird campaign of denigration.

On the face of it what you say is reasonable. Even WADA said after the Cronulla decision that they may have been lenient. But you have to remember that WADA see Australia as beacon of sporting excellence and that includes good governance. At the time of the Cronulla settlement they were prepared to wave it through because they met much of what was sought which Essendon refused, and still refuses to do ie admit guilt, and recognise publicly the major perpetrators. It was also soon after Evans got rolled when ASADA and WADA had been heavily involved in negotiating a settlement with Esendon which would have resulted in this whole thing being over in late 2013. I can tell you they were gob smacked by the intransigence if Little and Hird, and feel as though they have been left with no choice but impose the letter of the law. In fact, because it has become such a public issue, in no small part to Hird's incessant PR campaign, much of it directed at ASADA their Australia affiliate, they feel it is now a matter of principle not only in Australia, but also in the rest of the world. Basically they figure if someone like Hird is seen to get off because he has the local press on side, and devotes endless millions to the campaign and then gets off, it will render WADA and all their international,affiliates useless in the fight against drugs in sport. It is that important to them, and thank god it is. We are extremely lucky we have people of such integrity in the governance of drug taking in sport. It could easily be different (think soccer, athletics, cycling, cricket) where there is nothing like that level of integrity. I think we should be applauding them rather than questioning their motives.

Well we will see I guess. Cronulla was bad yes, but nothing like ESSENDON. I have said all along that Evans and his advisers (PR and legal, with the support of the AFL) were moving towards a negotiated settlement which ASADA and WADA would have allowed in 2013. Hird and Little's coup scarpered all of that and then made it into a contest in the civil courts. This is just about the worst way to deal with WADA/ASADA because it makes it into a legal contest and there is no room for negotiation ( not unlike many legal cases).It has left the official bodies responsible for enforcing penalties for drug taking no choice but to enforce the letter of the law (or at least the WADA code). You can call what I am saying nonsense if you like - let's see what happens, I am very confident I am right and what I say is very firmly based from very reliable.sources.

Cronulla is totally different on a number of fronts. First, the doping was not systematic and was not team based. Secondly, it lasted a matter of weeks rather than the whole season and more. Thirdly, when found out they did not contest, but rather admitted guilt and by doing so gave themselves permission to negotiate a settlement. Hird and Little have consistently said they will never admit guilt nor will they allow any of their players to do so. Whilst this maybe breaking down, particularly of ex ESSENDON players now in other clubs, the core EFC group will stick I think to the Hird line and take the consequences which will come from ASADA and WADA. It is a measure of the selfishness and sociopathic tendencies of Hird that this is allowed to happen. It need not, but it seems there is no way that our God like delusion that is James Hird will see the approaching reality. It is just this sort of delusional behaviour that WADA wants to stamp out. And all power to them I say.

But it is not a win for the AFL as Sue suggests. I would have thought it is in the interests of the AFL, and Australian football in general to get this over as soon as possible. All this carry on just delays it, and delays the day when the competition will return to normal. There is no advantage to ESSENDON in delaying this, in spite of what some on here argue. They get no advantage in so called "developing their list" because they will start from a hell of a way back once this is completed, a situation they will take e decade or more to recover from.

I'm sorry, but nonsense. The longer this goes on in limbo the longer ultimately will be the penalty. Let's say that the final findings from WADA and CAS aren't confirmed until mid year , say July. This means that the players with infraction notices will not be able to play until then. Let's also assume the CAS penalties are two years. This means the penalties will most likely be dated from July 2015, meaning none of the players will be eligible to play until July 2017, by which time a number of them will be due for retirement. It is ironic,all this stuffing around by ESSENDON, Hird, and the AFL just adds to the pain of ESSENDON. The Hirds and Little are hugely culpable in this. WADA is very much aware of this and are constantly amazed how self interested and selfish all the parties are who are involved in this. It will not stop them from imposing the harshest penalties possible though. For them it is a test case for the rest of the world, one they simply HAVE to win.

At the end of the day it makes no difference what the AFL does. Any penalties are ultimately in the hands of WADA even though local sporting judicial tribunals hand out the initial finding. Any playing dead by the AFL is therefore ultimately superfluous.

I agree with you they will (or at least should) want to keep WADA out. The problem is that both the AFL and Essendon seem to have zero understanding of what WADA regards as internationally accepted norms. You have to remember that WADA people neither know nor care about our interesting little sub-culture in southern Australia called the AFL. We care hugely about it, no one more so than me, particularly about the MFC, but they neither care nor understand it. What they do do though is look at the facts about drug taking in sport and they are incredibly thorough and care not a jot about local sensibilities no matter what the sport. On objective evidence, and based on international precedence, Essendon and the AFL are cooked. There is no escape and they are beginning too realise it. That is why they are turning, Tony Abbott like, to ways of breaking all rules to get out of their previously committed to obligations. It won't wash, but it is a measure of their desperation that they appear to be trying.

ASADA doesn't have to leak or mount expensive PR programmes because their case is so strong. There has been very little grandstanding from them and have let the case speak for itself. And you know what, it is slowly dawning on the hird/essendon camp that they are doomed. The propaganda from the pro essendon press is now more along the lines of the injustice of it all now, rather than their previous approach "they will all get off with backdated sentence and will miss no matches ( they won't), and ASADA has no case (they do, a very strong one). It doesn't stop the vested interests in this though trying to operate on a political level to get thrm off. Fortunately, they are captives of international arrangements which will not allow the usual political interference to over turn just decisions. It won't stop them from trying though....

More WADA than ASADA

Fair point. I will amend accordingly, but i don''t think it alter the thrust of what i was saying. I still think Hird will ultimately be prosecuted. i suspect ASADA's lack of action on that front has a lot to do with them waiting for all legal action between the parties to cease, just the same as Workcover is waiting.

I think the important thing to understand here is that neither ASADA nor WADA feel they owe Essendon and the AFL any favours. In fact quite the opposite. At the top of both organisations it is fair to say they are ropable as to the arrogance of this major Australian sport, and they are determined to ensure they get their just deserts. That means full penalties. ASADA stopped talking to Essendon around the time Hird took them to court . No communication about discounted sentences has occurred since then basically because ASADA says "they have done their dash and if they won't co-operate with us neither will we do them any favours".Basically I believe they will stick to the letter of the law and date any penalties from the days of the handing down of sentences without any discounts. This i believe will be followed by a case mounted against Hird. He will get life. I hasten to add though this will not come from the AFL Tribunal. Under intense pressure from a variety of vested interests, not least the ABBOTT government desperately trying to make itself popular, they will hand down backdated 6 month penalties to the end of last season, and all Essendon and their tame lackies in the media will say is "I told you so". Within weeks WADA will have taken them to CAS and the above penalties will come out. Then there is Worksafe......it has years to run. It is a measure of the desperation of these people that their acolytes in the Press have just started to float the idea that the AFL should renounce their signing up for the WADA charter. This is about the only way they will get out of this mess. Given the proclivities of the powerful vested interests involved in this, it would not surprise me if they are seriously looking at if this is possible, but it would be about as stupid as Abbott's knighting of Prince Phillip but be 100 times more damaging and would make us not only the laughing stock of the Commonwealth, but of the entire sporting world. Interesting to note, the new State Governor is an AFL Commissioner, a senior judge, AND an Essendon fanatic, and was appointed by the Victorian Premier, also an Essendon tragic as is the global head of News Limited. The EFC have some very powerful people backing them on both sides of politics, and will be examining every angle to try and wiggle their way out of this. Fortunately, WADA has ultimate say, no matter how much the Anglo-Australian establishment might wish otherwise.

I think there is a perfectly logical explanation as to why there are supposedly no records as to what was given to players at Essendon, it is simple - cheating! If you deliberately set about to gain an advantage in a team sport by making your players bigger and stronger by giving them illegal drugs, wouldn't you try and cover it up? Isn't the easiest way of covering it up to simply not record its content? And isn't this likely to have come from the person who sought to gain this advantage in the first place - the coach?As I understand it a crucial part of ASADA's case is that it has carefully followed the illegal drugs trail, all the way through the local suppliers, the pharmacists and then eventually to ESSENDON. And in quantities which would indicate there was a major program in place over many months and a number of recipients. What it does not have are the records to say what drugs were specifically given to players. This is a total breach of good clinical practice and negligent in itself I would have thought, I suspect enough to have Doc Reid rubbed out by itself. However, as I understand WADA rules this, together with the evidence from the players involved, is more than enough to convict them for very long sentences, and to put away the perpetrators ie the coaches, for life. Indeed, in a number of the cases WADA have appealed and won, the circumstantial evidence was a lot weaker than it is here, and most of those people received the harshest penalties after WADA appealed them through CAS. The reasons the local sporting tribunals give light sentences I suspect are because these rules are based on the very least circumstantial evidence, whereas in a court of law you would expect much harder evidence to obtain a conviction. Whilst this may seem harsh to us, being used to British Law as we are, it sometimes takes the power of WADA and CAS to ensure that the WADA rules are enforced in the way they were intended. This is the reason why I believe the AFL Tribunal will probably give the EFC players backdated 6 months sentences, and this is what the propaganda being peddled recently by Hird's acolytes in the media is based on. They (ESSENDON and Hird) are as usual fooling themselves. It won't wash with WADA, and their obstructionism and obfuscation will result in harsher penalties than they would otherwise have been.

I said it was his Toorak house, not his family home. It is his Toorak house, but also happens to be an investment which he is selling which was revealed to be helping him fund his folly.

I do not mean necessarily broke in the financial sense, although I think both with Essendon and Hird I think this is a possibility. For the first time in this episode, Hird when discussing going to the High Court, he has said "I need to raise the $100,000 to do it first". He has also recently sold his Toorak house, allegedly to pay for his fight. If he is found guilty by ASADA, in my view likely (I know some on here question this as he hasn't been issued with infraction notices currently - well all I will say is that neither were Armstrong's coaches initially but after he was rubbed out, they also received penalties ranging from 10 years to life), and even rubbed out for 5 years, his ability to earn an income will be severely reduced and my guess is that Essendon will use this as a reason not to pay out his contract, particularly if a new regime takes over there. Then there is Workcover, which is more likely to impose heavy fines (than for instance send directors to jail, although that also is a possibility) both on Essendon and Hird. Confirmation of penalties either by the AFL Tribunal or CAS will almost certainly be followed by legal action by the players rubbed out (and any coaches and officials affected) against the AFL, Essendon and Hird. These will not only be extremely costly to mount (and Essendon have said they will cover any legal cost of the players, although it is unclear whether this includes legal action against the Club itself), will probably take years to resolve, and could result in overall damages in the tens of millions of dollars. Even Hird and Essendon would struggle with that. At best it would severely weaken the club for decades. In this I have absolutely no sympathy for either Hird or Essendon. I do have some for the players, even though they all have extensive education about drug taking, but you could imagine a sociopath like Hird making it a "my way or the highway" type stance in this which would make it very difficult to resist. The downside for the rest of us is that this whole episode will severely damage Aussie Rule football in general, and the AFL in particular, when the challenge coming from Soccer is greater than ever, and lifestyle and technological changes give the young so much more choices than playing and watching sport. We don't need the Hirds of this world, and the sooner we are rid of them the better.

ESSENDON have also been sold a "pup" by their PR and legal advisors. All their advice, and the advice to the Hirds, which has seemingly been devised to appeal to James and Tania's sociopathic egos, has been extremely self serving. What surprises me is Little's behaviour in all this, particularly given his extremely successful business career. Anyone who has delt with senior advisors of this sort in corporate life, as I have, always treats this sort of advice with some degree of scepticism, especially when it is so obviously self serving. There seemingly is no nuanced response in this case, and his love for the EFC seems to have has got in the way of his previously ruthless business judgement.WJ, I'm sure you are as aware as I am, that the PR and Legal communities in Victoria just view ESSENDON and particularly the Hirds as a gift which just keeps on giving. I was in a discussion the other night with a number of barristers who are friends of my lawyer children, and most of the topic discussed was how could they get in on the Hird/ESSENDON millions. There was no discussion on the rights and wrongs of the case: simply the naivety of the "players" and how this might make them rich. This looks very much what has been motivating their current advisors and seems to be reemerging in the discussions about a High Court challenge, one they have no hope of winning, except how it will make the advisors themselves financial winners - again! One wonders when this will ever end. The problem is that the consequences of this behaviour is that it will almost certainly break Hird, morally and financially, and possibly also send an extremely wealthy club like essendon to the wall. It need not have been so. If they had stuck to the advicers employed under Evans with the AFL's strong support, this would have been over long ago, with Hird removed from the AFL richer, and ESSENDON now preparing for an optimistic 2015 campaign. Instead a cloud now hangs over the AFL and Essendon, and is likely to erupt into Armageddon during the course of this year - all because of the huge egos and distorted personalities of three very flawed people.

I think the test is whether the leadership group stand up in tough games, and get us across the line. Jones has shown this a number of times. Grimes was outstanding in the last quarter in Adelaide last year with some truly inspirational play. Likewise with Dunn several years ago when we won by three points in Brisbane when he kicked a couple of goals in the last quarter, one on the run from about 60 meters out. Dawes has been great in some wins although in my eyes not quite consistent enough, but a very fine character. Lumumba I'm not sure about, although I seem to remember he has played a couple of outstanding Grand Finals. Cross is the one I don't agree with. I think he is yesterday's man. A fine character no doubt, a great trainer, but has come from a middle ranking club albeit with a few finals appearances. I would have thought someone like Dom Tyson would have been a much better choice, won us two games last year off his own boot in close finishes, and he IS the future of the Dees.

Thanks Tony..

They still do not get it do they. They can get the AFL to agree, but they can't deliver. Only ASADA/WADA can deliver, and they are not negotiating. All it will do is to get WADA and CAS even more offside and eventually lead to higher penalties. In any case, I'm pretty sure I am right in saying the normal practice is to date penalties from the last time they played, and if they play in the NAB cup, that will be from pretty much now on. How stupid can you get???

No surprise here. Tracy Holmes always has been a fanatical bombers fan. She also left mysteriously they ABC some years ago after questions about her competence. Nothing much has changed!

I think there is an element of marketing in this - have both points of view (as the Age does) but Murdoch is different. The person who runs the new demerged newspaper business globally is an ESSENDON frantic as WJ pointed out not long ago. I think that is instructive as to why the most powerful news organisation in the country is so ridiculously biased towards Essendon with the very honourable exception of Patrick Smith. Basically it is an indulgence by News - one of the few issues in which Murdoch will have no personal interest.

Not yet. Doesn't stop then in the future....have a look at the fate of some of the people who surrounded Armstrong, and a number of coaches associated with European cycling. The initial concentration is nearly always on the athlete - those who actually take the substances. Those who arranged and administered the doses, or oversee them get caught up later.

My understanding is that Hird argued to the EFC board when they were about to sack him last year and they were trying to persuade him not to appeal to the court for this case that he was innocent and he would prove it in court. He hasn't and he isn't. His position is now untenable, and in the past as much as admitted it when he said in his affidavit to the Federal Court: "I believe that if show-cause notices are issued to current or former Essendon players by ASADA, this would give rise to immeasurable and irremediable damage to my reputation, my earning capacity as an AFL coach and my business interests external to Essendon and the AFL". (thanks Patrick Smith) After that, logically he should resign, or be sacked. Think of this situation logically. How many CEO's would survive in such circumstances. By Hird's action, he has put the health of the key employees at risk to the extent that the organisation itself is in danger of extinction and the government regulator (Workcover) is hovering. Further, the business has been investigated by an internationally sanctioned body (ASADA) the result of which 34 of their key employees are now in front of an anti-doping panel and likely to be formally suspended from employment as a direct result of his negligence. Most businesses would fire the CEO if one of his employees was sanctioned in such a way as a result of the work practices coming from the top.. I do not see how Hird could possibly survive this, and I suspect the AFL will now put huge pressure on Little to act, if he does not have the inclination to do so. Any further legal action in the High Court will only be designed to get a further stay of execution. Time to act is now to put us all out of our misery.

I think this is potentially a great idea. If North Melbourne and Footscray can get first class facilities off the back of a heavy state government subsidy why not us? There are a number of advantages not least tapping into the university's state of the art research facilities and its renowned academic excellence. It is after all the only Australian university which is consistently rated in the top 50 universities in the world. There are of course a few practical difficulties which would need addressing like parking, but the idea has a great deal of merit.,I wrote a detailed paper 5 years ago putting forward a number of ideas about improving the clubs performance off the field particularly building the membership base amoungst other things how we should tap into the overseas student market to build our supporter base. I sent this to Cameron Schwab and of course got no reply, but this move to UOM would be a great start in that journey. There are also a number of other things we can do in this direction (which I outlined in the paper). If we were smart I see no reason why we could not have a supporter base approaching 100,000 within five years. It would require though some innovative thinking. Certainly our previous administration was not up to it. Maybe this one is. Let's hope so!

That would be right. The Hirds keep on giving!!!