Dees2014

I don't think we should get upset about this at all. It merely means when the sentences are finally handed out by CAS that they will be all the more severe, with no backdating whatsoever. We should be pleased about that!

Spot on CHF. You have nailed it. Essendon are living in cookoo land.

I actually agree with most of what you say. Amazing isn't it!

Fair point. My case was that it is one thing to have the title "Judge" in a court of law, an entirely other thing to be a judge in a non legal environment. Granted, you would expect them to show the integrity of a Judge's position, but there are many judges of various political hues, but they generally moderate their political biases in the formal processes of the Law (with a few notorious exceptions). Outside the judicial processes, they are subject to the normal emotions and prejudices like the rest of us. And there is no greater public scrutiny like the emotion charged AFL Tribunal.

Well let's see who is right. I am more than happy to be judged on the reality of what happens - are you?

That does not bring it under the judicial system with all the checks and balances that implies. Just because you appoint an ex judge does not mean he will act as though he would in a court of law. It might, but it does not guarantee the scrutiny that Judges normally expect. His job is at the beck and call of the AFL. Enough said I would have thought.

Thank goodness for WADA. All this local Australian politics will become irrelevant , something the EFC and Hird have never understood, or more likely have wanted to forget for their own purposes.

As I have said many times on here, the AFL Tribunal is not a court of law. It operates under its own rules and is heavily influenced by the AFL, the local media, and PR campaigns by the likes of James Hird. It does not have the discipline of hundreds of years of precedent, nor the knowedge of learned and extremely intelligent judges. They run on the AFL agenda, as they will here, and they will squib it.Fortunately, it will be taken out of the juristriction of the Australian sporting establishment and justice will be done. Vale J & T Hird. And good riddance. You should never be forgiven for the damage done to the AFL, ESSENDON and australian sport in general.

Nonsense...

Have you heard of the "gravy train". I know a number of lawyers in Melbourne including a number of my relatives that whenever Hird's name is mentioned in their company they salivate as to the revenue opportunities, and his nievity in accepting their advice. To the legal profession, he and Tania are simply the gift which keeps on giving. Of course their lawyers are going to recommend they keep going with this nonsense, why wouldn't you when you are on $5000+ a day and this could go on for months more if the appeals, WADA and CAS happen.The fact is that four judges have rejected the case. Personally, the sooner we get through this facade, and go to the real decision court CAS, the better. At least it will send the EFC establishment into a frenzy of recrimination and chaos. Oh, what a site to see!

No chance. ASADA's evidence was initially examined in detail by their new head, a former senior inspector of the AFP. He gave it a big tick. Then the new Abbott Government, in an atmosphere where they said in opposition they would try to bring the case to a quick close (read "close it down") appointed a Federal Judge to examine the evidence, and he strongly endorsed ASADA's evidence and encouraged that it be brought to Trial. Both these gentlemen are strongly credentialed and I venture to suggest they would not put their reputations on the line unless ASADA has a very strong case. I know from my contacts that WADA thinks this is one of the strongest cases they have seem, particularly for a major team sport. Then there is CAS which operates under European Law which in this case favors a WADA appeal should it come to that.. No, Essendon are as cooked as Tony Abbott. For all the fear mongers on here, justice will be served, and if the AFL tribunal squibs the sentence then WADA will ensure ensure through CAS that the guilty parties are adequately punished.

I agree this is so now, but once the penalties are handed out, the court appeals are exhausted, and ESSENDON start destroying itself in a quagmire of litigation and recrimination, I think supporters, or many of them, will turn on Hird and Little. Of course, there will still be the hardcore, just as there were for many of the outdated ideologies of the 20th century, This will be facilitated by endless histories of the saga, in books, newspaper exposes, and dare I say it television mini series. Slowly, Hird and Little will be seen to be the villains of the peace, the EFC will recover from Ashes, and Hird's name will be seen in very much the same way as Armstong's is today ie a golden boy who cheated and got found out and justly got punished with the full force of the law.

After the AFL Tribunal hands down their initial decision, either party (I.e. Essendon or ASADA) can lodge an appeal to the AFL Appeals Tribunal who will in turn either amend the original decision or confirm it. If WADA decides this second verdict is inadequate then they can take the appeal to CAS. Their record is when they do this they usually win, and have exercised this right often internationally,Ultimately, it may well be taken out of the AFL's hands, and the poisonous and partisan australian sporting atmosphere, which can only be good for a fair result.

ASADA/WADA may get him, but if they don't, Workcover certainly will, and the criminal penalties from them will be so much more severe. And appropriately so too.

This is a possibility, but I suggest any verdict which results in significant playing time lost by the players will result in civil court action by them against Hird, Essendon and the AFL, which could go on for years. Given Hird's past behaviour, he would almost certainly vigoursly defend this which would further delay it. Then there is Workcover which will come to a head after ASADA is finished, and will result in significant penalties for the Essendon hierarchy and Hird himself, ultimately also ending up in the appeals court. This has a long way to go, but will result in the ultimate penalty being the same. ASADA knows it, WADA knows it, and no doubt the AFL knows it as well. Whether Essendon does or not is debatable. I have no doubt at all that the Hirds know it - that is why they are fighting it every inch of the way, and using every delaying tactic in the book, just as Armstrong did - but sadly for them, a very similar fate awaits the Golden Boy J. Hird.

I have always said on here that the judgement from the AFL Tribunal will not be the end of it. Hird and Little clearly seem to think they can intimidate the local tribunal through their network of press, political (State and Federal) and sporting contacts - and they are probably right. The initial findings in April I am predicting will be grossly inadequate, will be appealed initially to the Appeals tribunal of the AFL, will be still inadequate, and will then be taken to CAS by WADA. McDevitt was merely reflecting this reality. I wonder how many of the Senators were ESSENDON supporters. I bet a few were. They seem to be everywhere in the political establishment!

Oh I don't agree at all. The AFL tribunal is just the first step, possibly followed by appeals then maybe a WADA appeal to CAS. I think it is only after this is complete will the real VWC investigation get to a full steam. This still has a long way to go, and I dont expect the AFL tribunal finding to go nearly far enough for either ASADA or WADA. Then there will be the inevitable legal actions by al the "wounded" parties....

I find it impossible to understand how your contact, if he is indeed a legal one, could say it is still 50/50 whether ESSENDON will get off, when he says there is no dispute about whether they took "bad" thymosin and that Hirds reputation has been totally trashed including incriminating emails. I must say this information is in line with mine from people inside the case. The difference is that mine, principally from inside WADA, see Essendon and Hird as being doomed. For them, it is a question of what the sentence will be, rather than if they will be convicted.

I didn't arrive until late so only saw the last half. First impression was there was more intensity than there has been for three or four years. By putting Toumpas and Salem in the backline, we have SIGNIFICANTLY improved kicking out of the backline and speed. Toumpas very much impressed, and Salem's accurate kicking is a phenomenon, particularly kicking in from the square - now that will be a change. The Red Team had Hogan, Dawes and Gawn up forward, and out musled the opposition impressively responding to accurate kicks forward, but we do need to improve overhead marking in our talls: Dawes contested gamely but seems only to have two or three grabs or none at all; hogan, gee he is a strong mark when it is sent directly to him (is another Neitz I reckon) but he too dropped relatively easy contested marks; and Maxy Gawn, I am his biggest fan, but he is very frustrating to watch sometimes. Today his positioning was perfect, contested very strongly, but he too dropped three overhad marks he should have taken, particularly with his height, and the fact he got both hands to the ball all three times. I think Maxy will be a huge star but he does need to use his natural advantages ( his height and his speed) to greater advantage. Hopefully our great coaches will get him there. Overall really impressive for the first hit out which was very encouraging.

Certainly I am not saying Bernie Vince has no potential. What I was trying to do here is look at our list and to try and identify which players have the potential over the next 3-5 years to turn themselves into A graders. One of the accusations leveled at the MFC is they have some good players, but no Agraders and the one thing we need to go deep into the finals is to find some Agraders. Given our high proportion of high draft picks I thought it was logical to identify, given our A grade coaching staff assembled by Paul Roos, which of our current players have that potential. Bernie I think is 28, he is a terrific player, but no one says he is an Agrader, and given his age I think it is unlikely he ever will be. The others on the list I identify with that potential ( with the exception of Nathan Jones who I reckon already is an Agrader) are all in their early 20s and given the right guidance and coaching I beiieve have the potential to become Agraders. If all that happens, we will be consistently deep into the finals.

Good post. The question for is for me is how many of our B graders, with great coaches and first class leadership, will step up to A graders. These are the ones I think have the potential, and then whether they will or not in the next 5 years: Petracca - yes Brayshaw - yes Viney - yes Gawn - yes Hogan - yes Toumpas - no Watts - yes Tyson - yes Grimes - no JKH - no Jones - yes Vince - no Lumumba - no Garland - no Stretch - yes Trengove - yes Howe - no Salem - yes That's enough to make us a contender in the next 5 years. Whether it is enough to win a premiership is another matter.

The local code judicial body, in this case the AFL Tribunal are charged with hearing drug taking cases and handing out penalties. If WADA, the global body responsible for drawing up the global anti drugs code, for which all major sporting bodies throughout the world, including the AFL, are signatories, have responsibility to oversee enforcement of those rules throughout the world and have the power to intervene in any country should the local sporting body's judicial tribunal in their view not sufficiently enforce the code. In these cases they can and do take the issues to the international Court of Arbitration in Sport (CAS) and appeal against the local decisions, and they usually win. In my view this is likely to happen in the Essendon case because of the severe local interference in the process from both a sporting and political perspective. WADA will take it to CAS and win yet again because ASADA's (WADA's local offshoot) has overriding evidence about the justice of it cause.

Fine, let's agree to disagree. I think you and I would agree that by far the most important issue is that the more serious transgression at Essendon is properly dealt with and the guilty parties are appropriately punished. What is done is done with Cronulla. Hird and his crew are far more serious, and should be treated accordingly, which I believe they will be. Let's see what happens....

Read my last post where this is explained. It is not a case of being to close to it, it is a case of the two issues not only being very different but were handled very differently both by the sporting bodies and the clubs, let alone the litigious, sociopathic essendon coach. I might also add just because WADA criticises their local affiliate, it does not make the whole process null and void. There are various versions of intervention by WADA, including criticising decisions, but not taking them to CAS, criticising them and taking them to CAS, and waving them through without comment. Oh and by the way, WADA cannot get rolled by a local branch. They have ultimate power, it is just in the Cronulla case they chose not to use it, for reasons I explained in my previous post.

Haven't you noticed, public officials of integrity almost never sue journalists - they would spent all their time in court otherwise. They let their actions do the talking, and there will be no bigger action than what is coming for Esendon, the AFL and Hird..