Macca

I don't think so nifty ... 'group-think' rules on the internet. So most who have a minority view are not often apt to speak up. You reckon this thread is a good sample size? I don't. i see it as a chance for most to just vent away. Pound of flesh just happens to be the current whipping boy - Frost

So true ... but without robust debate, it would be a dull old place

Player-speak May was out of line and needs to pull his own head in End of story

So May berates Frost for 'apparently' breaking team rules (an errant spoil that went in the wrong direction) but one could mount an argument that May broke an even bigger team rule. And in the process quite possibly motivated the opposition "Have a look at this rabble, arguing amongst themselves. Let's run all over them fellas" You never give a sucker an even break.

And there you go again with the scapegoating It is now the fault of Jones & Viney. Weeks ago ir was Goidwin and prior to that it was all Cameron Schwab's fault. The reasons why we're 4 & 10 are many. It isn't one thing and never would be one thing And if you had more experience in these matters you'd know that.

No I am not having an off day at all You're scapegoating Frost for starters. What about all the numerous errors made by all the other players Did you see May's almighty clanger for instance? How about you call May out on that one. May's outburst is probably a symptom of a much greater problem (player or club or both) But you can't see that because you are too interested in your pound of flesh. Put on your cool head and you'll see it my way.

So it's Frost's fault again for not immediately admitting fault? Maybe Frost was thinking about May's errant short pass at the time. Again, who the hell does May think he is. Did you at any stage of the May outburst want him to stop? I'm betting you did and if so, why excuse the behavior?

Well if he's going to dish it out he has to expect some pushback. How else do you think it works? It just ends with the May dummy-spit?

I just reckon it's a bad look and no good comes from it. Not sure we've heard the end of it either. I wouldn't be assuming that May is seen as the worlds best teammate either He's played 5 games and has a lot to prove.

I have seen what you've seen as well ... in case you weren't aware I'm also a demon supporter. You make too many excuses and are the scapegoat king around here. May's outbirst serves no good at all. There are better ways to go about it. And embarrassing a fellow player isn't it May lost his rag and shouldn't have.

But we can't be selective with these things. What if was Gawn berating Jones (for 10 minutes) Is that ok too? Your argument has no weight.

I'm not denying that Frost didn't make an error but so did every other player during the game (including May) They are called clangers. Should May have run down the field and berated T-Mac for dropping an easy mark? You can't have players berating other players during the game - it's not on. And May continued on for what seened like an eternity . . Frost had every right right to tell May to shove it and that's what he possibly did Who the hell does May think he is anyway? In the aftemath Frost mentioned that it is 'All gpod' but he's just smoothing over the waters. As I said, any error that May now makes should therefore be highlighted. So go to it folks

In how things actually work at clubs

Read my post directly above You lack consistsncy and experience Wyl ... love your passion but you are wrong in this instance You have to be consistent with these sorts of things. So be consistent May therefore deserves a spray hinself if we are being consistent but where does is stop? Put aside your anger about the clubs current fortunes and keep a cool head.

And if you lot want to have a consistent argument you should be calling out Frost for not giving May a spray when he (May) needlessly turned the ball over with an errant short pass earlier in the game. So how about it?

You don't fix it by making things worse. Do you even know how these things work? You sound like you're just angry at another loss and you want your pound of flesh. In a crisis it's best to keep a cool head. So hopefully May gets called out for his stupid outburst. He looked more like a juvenile than captaincy material.

To prove my point I might just come back to this thread every time May makes an error. And he does make errors. I've seen him mistime his spoils and turn the ball over and he has only played a handful of games. He's not exactly squeaky clean himself. And I don't have May in the gun either ... it's more about the principle of giving players a spray out on the field. He copped a spray from the coach for rolling up to pre-season training in poor condition and then another spray from the leadership group for getting on the grog during rehab. Perhaps he thinks it's his turn to dish it out. And some of you want him as captain? Astonishing.

This has got nothing to do with Frost (in principle) ... if we were to see players giving other players a spray for making an error (an error not meant by the way) then all the players would be giving all the other players a spray all game long. Taking it even further does a player who makes an error deserve to cop a spray from every other player in the team (including those who have made errors themselves) May himself made a colossal error during the game when he short passed the ball straight to the opposition in their forward 50. So if we're being consistent Frost would have been within his rights to give May a spray for his needless turnover. Yeah, let's do that hey ... spray city. Great for club culture. Not.

Jones isn't the problem even though he is in his twilight years. The most obvious problem is that we have any number of C & D graders who haven't given any real service to the club in terms of standout performances. And to my eyes they probably never will. So 12-15 players could go before Jones and I wouldn't bat an eyelid. Keep the good players and get rid of the rest - it isn't rocket science. We've got about 12-15 decent players along with about 5-8 up and comers and that's about it. And many of those 12-15 decent players have struggled this year (for one reason or another) thus the poor W/L record. It isn't just the coach or the coaching staff. We are falling short in a number of areas. So I would definitely keep Jones around as we are a long long way from having a decent replacement for him. He is doing ok across half back anyway which is a lot more than can be said about numerous others.

Not a good look and that sort of thing doesn't need to be aired in public. Leave it up to the captain or the coach. May has let himself down badly. No captain should ever carry on like that and he's not captain of this club anyway. An embarrassing moment and no justification for the outburst. Rolls up to pre-season training unfit and now this. He makes plenty of errors himself including short passing the ball straight to the opposition within their own scoring range (2nd qtr?) Did he cop a spray for that? Future captain? No chance. What he showed wasn't leadership ... more like coming across as being a law unto himself.

Better still would be to have 5 or 6 blokes who can deliver the ball well into the forward line. But we still need our forwards to play in front and to lead to the right spots as well as having leading patterns that confuses the opposition. The sport is now an extremely complicated version of keepings-off and we're just not very good at it. For fleeting moments we look good but from.an overall perspective, we're lacking. Personnel changes is the real answer but a lot of our issues have to do with not working hard enough at the basics. And there is a connection to the coaching as well so we need an across-the-board lift from all concerned. But above all else an injection of talent. And lots of sprint training as we're too slow. Today I saw a player jog to pick up a loose ball on the wing and then kept jogging after he picked the ball up. At no stage did the player get into sprint mode. His kick was rushed as a consequence A goal scoring opportunity was lost but that happens all too often. We don't accelerate enough from the contest and too often we are jogging to the contest. There is nowhere near enough urgency.

Correct ... the perennial problem of having poor depth and too many C & D graders on the list (and in the senior side) is the real issue. We just aren't good enough talent-wise so the turning over of the list continues on. We need to add in 6 to 8 good players to be a real contender but it's difficult to even add in 2 good players in any given year. Add in 3 good players in one season and you're doing very well. In the meantime, the number of good players that we do have can start dissipating due to age or loss of form. The good news is that most of our good players aren't veterans. But the reality is that you can't really have 1 year in this league where you don't recruit well. And because of our poor recruiting (previously) we don't have anywhere enough good players on the list who are 26 years old or older. That age demographic can be compensated if we had an abundance of talent aged 26 or younger but that just isn't the case. There was a reason why we've had to recruit seasoned veterans. Most of them came cheap so that wasn't a problem but the chasm still remains If Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Salem, Harmes, Viney and a few others were 2 or 3 years older it's a different conversation. So we're playing catch-up with the usual obstacles in the way. It's hard work building a great list. And you need top coaching and great admin to go with it. And as most are now quite aware, there is a luck factor with drafting so nailing picks is easier said than done. And to acquire decent free agents a club has to go hard really early with lots of dollars on offer. The good news is that it isn't 2012 or 2013. We are in a much better position even though this years W/L record is abysmal.

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But we are not heading in that direction BM although I do agree with how you'd do it Where we are heading is a fingernail on the ball ... that will be how things are judged We can rally, stomp our feet and do whatever but like nearly every other large sporting organisation, the AFL are a law unto themselves and won't use common sense. And their pattern of behavior is easy to see. So the fingernail on the ball with state of the art technology involved is the future. My way of making the best of the situation is to turn away from the sport and at the same time have a greater interest in the MFC.

So am I disagreeing with you? No I just prefer to look at things from a different angle ... adding to the conversation without repeating what numerous others have already said. I'm also a realist, a practical thinker and my first port of call is logic. And logic tells me that the AFL are going to do whatever they like and are pathetic custodians. And I don't expect anything to change. To a point where I now barely watch the sport ... I've got better things to do. AFL isn't even on my radar and I'm only here because of the MFC. That's it. I go to our games (or watch on the telly) and sometimes the last 10 minutes of a few other games. So I'm probably ahead of you with my cynicism Rack-'Em. Years ahead in fact. And that is no knock on you either. You'll catch up with me eventually. Broaden your horizons and embrace some other sports is a good start. But you can do whatever you like.