Jaded No More

I never advocated trading Rivers or Davey. I was just asking those who believe it will take us 7 years to be a realistic chance at a flag, why we should keep Davey and trade Rivers (both around the same age, both extremely important to our structure). If the club is planning for a flag in 2015, then we can trade a number of players who will be in their late 20's or early 30's by the time we're ready to challenge, and who will most likely not be getting a game or influencing the results of a match by then. We could probably trade McLean who definitely won't be any faster in 7 years too. Thankfully I doubt very much that the club plans to be unsuccessful for another 7 years. It might take us that long to win a premiership, but it is certainly realistic for us to play finals in 2010 and when you're playing finals you want the likes of Davey, Rivers and McLean by your side because anything can happen in September. And while I completely support the need to get another first round pick, it cannot be done at the expense of some of our most important players structurally (it's not as if we are blessed with smart defenders), because odds are, whoever we pick up could very well end up another Luke Molan and then we traded a valuable commodity for a dud. Besides, I think it's too dangerous to plan so far into the future in AFL, because honestly you just never ever know what will happen. Of course you have to keep topping up your list with talent, especially when you are on the bottom of the ladder, but whatever talent you acquire should compliment the talent you already have, not be at the expense of it. Rivers is one of the few footballers in our club who has both a football brain and beautiful disposal.

Well Davey and Rivers are around the same age, but you don't think Rivers will be a contributing member of our side in 7 years, so why would Davey? A couple more bad hamstrings, or heaven forbid a knee reconstruction and his best attribute will be gone. He won't be running them down from behind in 7 years.

So Davey will still be a vital part of the team in 7 years when we're ready to challenge for the flag?

No Newton... the mystery continues.

At least Jamar makes a physical contest in the middle. That's more than we can say for either White or Yze. Either way, he is named in the squad, so we'll see what happens.

Amen Rhino, amen. Give a kid the opportunity to experience the great atmosphere of the day and stop rewarding senior players who are not pulling their weight just because of their past glories. That goes for Bruce too. His disposal and decision making are now a liability. The minute our kids start carrying our senior players, you just know something is wrong. I rather see Jamar drop 10 sitters, than Yze toe-poking his way through yet another game.

Just because a player is surplus at one club, doesn't mean they are not good enough to become a core player at another club. Still, I agree that we probably wouldn't get a top 15 (or top 20) pick for Jones. So you ask which player would get us a first round pick? I would say Davey, McLean, Rivers, probably Morton (not that he could even be traded) and Bate are the only players we may get a top 15 pick for. However if the draft is as good as everyone says, we might struggle to get a top 20 pick for anyone. The thing is, you have to look at which teams are on the verge, or around the mark, and what they are looking for. Davey would be happily welcomed at Geelong and Sydney. The Dogs will probably love McLean to replace West and Bate as a tall forward target. Who would realistically give us a top 20 pick for Rivers? Probably Adelaide, except they will not part with their first round pick, and their second round pick will be a late one given they'll finish in the 8 or maybe even in the top 4. At the end of the day it all comes down to perceived value versus actual value. I still can't believe we got pick 14 for TJ, but I'm filthy that we gave Thompson away for pick 12 (although we weren't in a bargaining position on that one). If we get a top 30 pick for Bruce I'd be over the moon, but anything higher than pick 10 for Rivers would be criminal and I just can't see any club parting with a top 10 pick for a player that has struggled with injury for over a year now. We need to look at other avenues, perhaps trading a mid-aged player (Green?) plus our second round pick might get us a top 15 pick? I mean the Lions were crazy enough to give us pick 14 for a lazy, injury-prone, mid-age player. Green is a lot more stable, more versatile and less of a tool.

I want to see a premiership before I go overseas to work dammit! But seriously, Port had a really quick mini-rebuild and they played in a GF last year. Brisbane, god knows how, but they are slowly coming back. We could easily be playing finals in 2 years, and when you play finals, anything can happen. Fine ok, I'm delusional.

I completely agree with that, and some people are delusional if they think that we'll get a top 10 pick if we trade Sylvia or Bruce. However, I think we need to look at trading our surplus. I love Jones, he's great, but if we lose him we still have McLean, Moloney, Valenti and maybe even Grimes. So assuming we use his pick on a dud, the net loss won't be too great. Question is, can we get a top 15 pick for Jones? At the end of the day we have to be smart about which young player we choose to trade because our perception of how long it will take us to rebuild and be in premiership contention could prove to be wrong. We could be in contention within 2 years, or it could take us 8 or 10 years. If it's going to take us 10 years, we can easily trade away Rivers, McLean, Davey and so on because they won't be around to witness a flag anyways. However if we manage to perform a much quicker turnaround (and in reality we've started our rebuild at the end of last year), than trading away a player whos qualities are unique, could really hurt us. That's why trading someone like Rivers really does scare me because you just never know where you'll be in a year or two.

Bell very much remains one of my favourite players, however I am not completely blinded by my love for him and nobody comes ahead of the MFC. If we can get a good draft pick for him, then I think it would be to our benefit to take the deal. Bell will be a serviceable player for us, and if he stays I'll be thrilled, but I'd be even more thrilled if we got a good pick for him and used that pick to get a key forward or a pacey midfielder, which right now we are desperately in need of (more so than a player who carries Bell's attributes). Robbo has been my favourite player for 10 years, but had we traded him last year for a good deal I would have accepted that and moved on. Not because I'd enjoy watching Robbo in a different jumper, but because at the end of the day the club has to do whatever it can to move the list forward. Bell could be an integral part of a premiership team, and his form last year showed that he is capable of being a very good player, but at the same time he is not irreplaceable and his form right now does not justify putting him on the 'untouchable' list. When you're on the bottom of the ladder with 1 win and a miserable percentage, you really need to drop the sentiments and have a good hard look at who is dispensable and which player offers a market value that is equal to or greater than the value they provide to the team.

Jones is the type of player that any good midfield could use. The problem is, that we don't have a good midfield. Cameron Ling is slow, but is a premiership midfielder. Brett Kirk's disposal is ordinary, but he is a premiership midfielder. What separates us from the likes of Geelong and Sydney (besides the fact that we're terrible and they're not), is that they have Goodes, and they have Ablett and amongst all that midfield class there are the hard-working, not terribly quick, not terribly gifted footballers who earn their keep because their bread and butter is to get clearances and be on the bottom of packs. They are not there because they can break the lines with pace, or hit a target 76 meters out on their non-preferred foot. So in a way, Jones is a victim of the crap he is surrounded with (and so are most of our kids), but if you look at it from a different point of view, we really can't keep carrying McLean, Jones, Moloney and Valenti on our list when they are all the same type of player, and when they all require a top quality midfield around them to perform at their best. Breaking it down, you keep McLean because of the 4 mentioned he is the best 'outsider' of the lot, meaning his disposal is very good most of the time. Of the rest, Jones stands out because he is a proven clearance winner, but unless he can reinvent another dimension and become a goal-kicking midfielder, or alternatively improve his disposal dramatically, he may just become dispensable, or worse, a depth player. Fortunately, I think he is capable of taking his game to another level and become an invaluable asset to our midfield, especially if one day he finds himself surrounded by a classy midfield.

This is what happens when, instead of listening, I read Demonland in class

As you said, his disposal has always been rather average, however this was not so much an issue when surrounded by a really strong group of midfielders. However, as I understand his knee injury has caused a permanent loss of cartridge, which reduces the strength and mobility of the knee. I think that could explain to a degree why he is getting caught so often and why his speed seems slightly reduced. He certainly doesn't change direction as well as he used to in his first season. Time in the VFL to gather some confidence in his knee and possibly work on his skills in a less pressured environment could really help him.

Our players wouldn't know a leader if he smacked them in the head. Seriously, look at who made it into the leadership group (Bruce, Yze) and who didn't (Green, Jones, Rivers). This in itself is a whole separate issue, which still does not change the fact that Bruce (who regardless of contract status can still be traded Mono!) is no longer skilled enough to be an integral part of our future.

The Herald Sun's credibility is up there with Jeff Kennet's. The idiot who wrote the match report probably looked at the stats and listed the top 5 possession getters in the best. Statistics don't impress me, when I go to games and see with my very own eyes the number of poor decisions made by senior leadership. The number of miss-kicks, the number of dodgy handballs that result in teammates being driven into the hard turf of Telstra Dome. Jeff White is up there for hit outs this year, and yet his output this season has been pretty unimpressive. Garland probably only gets a handful of possessions a game, but has only conceded 8 goals this season. So you tell me just what the stat sheets really tell us. As I said, Bruce certainly racks them up. There is never and has never been an issue of him not finding the ball. And he has fantastic endurance, which allows him to run all day. Again, this has never been in dispute. However, his skills are just not up to scratch, and if it's ok for supporters to blast the likes of Miller, Jamar, Bell and Bartram, who combined have played less games than Bruce, than why shouldn't we raise this issue when it concerns Bruce? As the captain of this football club it is his responsibility to lead the way with his attack on the ball and his disposable. Statistics won't show you that when we're struggling, Bruce is not found on the bottom of packs getting the hard balls. Statistics will show that yes, he got 21 touches today, but let me tell you his influence on the match equaled that of the umpire of gave Luke Ball 7 free kicks. I saw it with my own eyes, and the dozens of Melbourne supporters around me felt the same way. At his age, he is unlikely to ever part-take in an MFC premiership, and it is therefore time to cut our losses and move on. Having said all that, he is certainly not alone in the 'move on' basket.

Is really struggling, no doubt, but we need to persist with him. He had two very serious injuries which he is still recovering from, one of which will permanently affect his career (the knee). That he even made it back is a miracle, as I've spoken to a few Melbourne people over the course of last year who said he might never play football again. As a purely defensive player he is fairly good. Look at the job he did on McLeod just two weeks ago. As an attacking player he leaves a lot to be desired, but again we forget that he is affectively a second year player who has only done one full pre-season since he came to the club. He was a late pick and played every game in his debut year and was absolutely fantastic. He deserves some leniency before we label him useless!

Agreed. Add *insert name of mediocore player* to that list

So let me get this straight, you went to the match, you saw Bruce's 21 possessions and you are now suggesting he had a good game? Statistics will show his disposal was effective 76% of the time, statistics won't show the number of disposals that put teammates under pressure, the number of times he took the wrong option, and the number of times he chose not to man-up on his opponent. So he only turned the ball over 23% of the time, but that does not mean that for the rest of the time he made his possessions count. Moloney, Yze, Sylvia and White are hardly the sort of players that one would aspire to compare to. Yze is selfish, White is on his last leg, Moloney is the greatest waster of disposals in Melbourne and Sylvia has done nothing in 5 seasons. As for Jones, when Bruce finds himself winning the contested ball 9 out of 10 times and is put under the same pressure that Jones is under, come back to me with their respective statistics (also when Bruce turns 20 again we can make the same comparison). I know that because Yze_Magic started this thread, it's very tempting to refute his argument, however so far not one person has been able to argue with him because Bruce was terrible and his disposal and effectiveness has been terrible all season long, even if he is racking up double figure possessions... Godfrey used to as well you know. That he is a leader of this club only makes his glaring deficiencies harder to swallow.

Thank god Byron Pickett is gone. He'd look like the Good-Year blimp in that thing. I don't mind the use of silver, but our club's jumper should ALWAYS feature red and blue more prominently than any other colour. Why Eddie can have his way and we have to subject our players to wearing a jumper that puts on 15kgs is beyond me. Also, all long-sleeve versions of that thing must be burnt at once. Makes us look like a bunch of elephants running around.

My favourite game of the year, apart from finals of course (finals? what's that? ). I have 2 exams the next day, so I'll be studying at half time. I think that's a fair compromise

Sylvia, Newton and Bell should be put on the market. I'd take a second round pick for any of these (although we'll be lucky to get a third round pick for Newton). Additionally, anyone over the age of 28 can pack their bags. If Robbo can come back from injury, he stays because he is still contracted and frankly he is the only forward we've got. Junior can have another year if he so wishes. White, Yze and Holland should be forced to retire. Bruce should be traded, get whatever we can while we can. Likewise Carroll. Whelan may well retire if he can't get himself on the field. Jamar is contracted I believe, and IMO he is an insurance policy we have to have. Get as many draft picks as possible and keep building around our core group of under 23's. It's the only thing we can do to ensure we survive in the long term.

I did not absolve him of responsibility, I was simply pointing out that once again he got very little help. Players are not helping him or protecting him at the bounce. Unlike Luke Ball he is not protected by the umpires, and he can't be expected to win all the clearances on his own. Yes we were smashed in the middle, and yes McLean is absolutely partly responsible for that, but why does the blame always fall on his shoulders? When was the last time our brilliant ruck duo got us an effective tap? I was almost missing Jamar's physicality out there! Maybe he won't ever be the star midfielder we are looking for, but to be the number one tagged player each week, at 22, must be very frustrating when you are surrounded by senior players who don't put their bodies on the line and don't get their face smashed into the turf every 5 minutes. The reality is that if we keep relying and looking to him to win us the majority of clearances every week, we'll be bitterly disappointed. Maybe that's why so many supporters are picking on every average game he has, instead of looking at the big picture. The fish always rots from the head, and when your leaders are not putting in, why should anyone else? I don't think it's a secret that McLean is one of my favourite players, but I also don't think it's a secret that McLean works harder than most on the field and for that I command him. We reward fancy underachievers far too much at the MFC... like the supporters who actually command Yze on kicking 3 goals today. Give me a break!

Adem Yze? Some of you must be really thrilled when a player does nothing team- oriented but kicks 3 cheap goals, two from dubious frees, one in junk-time.

6- Junior 5- PJ 4- Garland (conceded 8 goals for the whole season he has!) 3- McLean 2- Warnock 1- Wheatley

Leave him in Sandy FFS! They dropped Valenti, who ok, wasn't setting the world on fire but who at least chased, tackled and put his body on the line, and rewarded Yze with a game. It's like the Daniher 'back your senior players at all costs' era all over again. Hopefully this was Bailey's way of saying "here's your chance to prove you can change". He hasn't. He's done.