nutbean

Absolutely. How anyone can say that a XXX will be "jet", a "star", a "gun" after one season is beyond me ESPECIALLY with our track record. The idea that Toumpas will be XXX or that Wines has no more upside is absurd after such a small sampling.

Unlike others on here - others on here who are rather too quick to make pronouncements.

Can't wait for Riley - he is suicidal at pace.

If you said you have seen nothing special in Toumpas YET, unlike Wines then I could agree. But I caution on the judging of babies like Toumpas until he has a couple more seasons under his belt. Has Wines developed earlier than Toumpas ? Sure. ( think back to Hodge of Hawthorn who was considered in the first few seasons as the worst mistake that the Hawks ever made - Judd still has him covered IMO but he was definitely a slow burn)

He is a gamer changer - how many of those are there in the AFL ?

From what I have seen of Wines he will have to improve considerably to get close to Wilson ( circa early years). Wilson was stupidly courageous - remember how many times he got concussed ? Wines is also very hard but Wilson was very skilled and very creative - he just didn't look that pretty doing it because of his body shape. Not sure that Wines has the Wilson moves. Trivia question - Wilson was a lock as our centreman then got badly injured - ended up playing more HFF because someone came onto the scene that stole his centremans spot. Can you remember who ?

I'm in the wait and see camp. ( Been burnt far too many times). Skills are only relevant if you get the ball in your hands in the first place.

At the risk of repeating myself, any successful gameplan requires constant movement and repeat presentation of options to the ball carrier. Sounds simple but our major problem has been that over the last 3-4 years we have not worked hard enough and presented options by constantly moving. We have bemoaned our kicking out from full back but I have pitied the kicker as he looks down the field and sees concrete statues wearing the Demons jumper.

Agreed - still not sure of why you said Wilson would enjoy playing with Wines ? I would think that Wilson would have enjoyed playing with Howe but that doesn't bring anything to the debate either. If you are suggesting that he would enjoy playing with Wines more than Toumpas - well ..agreed again because at this moment Wines is way more progressed/shown lots more.

You didn't read what I wrote. I disliked his politics but he was the consummate politician. For all those "ills" you highlighted - how many of them stuck ? How many cost him politically. He could sense what the majority of Australians wanted ( understanding that a good majority in political terms is 55%) and respond to it . So you are only half right in saying that he backing of his party - he also had the backing of the majority of Australians. He managed to make some rather unsavoury policies saleable. I never voted for him but you cannot compare the buffoon that is Abbott to John Howard.

Everyone would enjoy playing with Wines - he has shown plenty - what does that mean ?

Probably not a relevant question - at the beginning of his reign he recognised our depth of skill problems so he opted for a one handball and then a long kick. As we improved skillwise the gameplan did move to more possession but he was never one to believe in a high possession game. Swooper had a combination of both types of players - some skilled and but the majority not so skilled. What he did manage to do was to extract every last bit of talent out of players - whether you were a plodder or had some skill. Players would run through brick walls for swooper.

Disagree completely - whilst I did not like Howards politics he was the consummate politician who ( until the last months of his premiership) rarely made a gaff. He was all over his policies and was not prone to the absurd like Abbott.

Not sure on that - there are just so many to choose from for that title.

My hazy memory recalls winning it one year ?

For shame both of you ! It is unfortunately Demon folklore that we did not play finals after 1964 until after that last round in 1987 when we knocked off the doggies and had to rely on Hawks doing the cats (I love you Jason Dunstall) and made the finals. I do recall Sth Melbourne under lights - was that for the also rans ?

If I remember he had such a great season in 1972 that they made him All-Australian but at CHF because Peter Knights had an equally sensational year at CHB. ( or did I imagine that ?)

As a complete aside...its amazing what you hear of people doing as their livelihood. Making long bows and training actors to use them!! My squeeze has a cousin who travels around Europe cleaning statues and then has the sole rights to a little device that he attaches to them - sends a mild electric current through them to stop birds sitting (sic) on them. He has enough work for the next 100 years.

Anyone is more accurate. We have been blessed with geese. We have seen a smattering of "good gets" taken before their rating ( Howe and McDonald - then go back to the likes of Davey, Robertson) - we have had little success with our top draft picks that were taken exactly where pundits thought they would go - Sylvia, Brock M, Morton, Watts, Trengove, Scully ( even though he isnt with us - he is yet to prove that he is a number one pick), Toumpas (disclaimer - some are still in the formative stages and could yet prove that they were taken at the right pick). So we have had high picks taken at the right pick that haven't come on, we have had speculative picks taken high that haven't come on. Again this all poses that thorny question - have the recruiters got it so badly wrong or have we just not had the workplace, the culture and the development programs to allow players to thrive ?

He is certainly playing his best football and hopefully can further improve under better structures and disciplines that Roos is bringing to the team. But lets not rewrite his career to date with us.

You do learn from the past. What those names tell me is that had we gone the other way we would have been the bravest club in the AFL defying what was being touted by recruiters and experts alike. ( except Watts vs Niknat - where most "experts" and recruiters were split with a slight leaning to NikNat). Now if you said Cook vs lots of others Gysberts vs lots of others Strauss vs lots of others Then you have some lessons. I find it amusing that the recruiters get lambasted over the Scully/Trengove vs Martin decision on here - that decision was an absolute lock. But then recruiters went "left field" with Cook and Gysberts and since that also went pear-shaped the recruiters get slapped around for picking players who were not as highly ranked as other selections that could have been made. You can't have it both ways - you pick the higher rated in Toumpas and get kicked, you pick what was considered a smoky in Cook and you get kicked. The lessons from all of this is obvious - When it comes to recruiting, it doesn't matter what the rationale for picking a player is. The only expectation is for the recruiter to defy all research and popular wisdom from those who watch,rate and report on players and have a crystal ball to know exactly what a player will turn out like two years down the track. Get the inexact Science of recruiting correct and you are a hero - get it wrong and you are a goose - no matter what the reason.

Whoever it was, it was not a shocking call - it was the wrong call but no one is laughing at our call as you suggest.. The unfortunate fact of recruiting is that it is not an exact Science. Did I think IN RETROSPECT that we got Toumpas over Wines wrong ? Probably. However we went with conventional wisdom. The "experts" rated Toumpas higher than Wines. And yes, some here absolutely pumped for Wines and many on here also liked Wines but were rapt when Toumpas fell to us even suggesting a little bit of draft tampering to let him fall to our pick. Doesn't make it any less painful but I won't take the stick to the recruiters on this one. Like I won't take them to task on Scully over Martin. It was the safe and obvious choice. Its the likes of Cook, Gysberts and Strauss who were taken well ahead in the draft of what their pedigree suggested that are the shocking decisions. These are the types of footballers that we can scratch our heads and ask why we drafted them ahead of footballers who were much more highly rated.

Isn't recollections amazing - JT blew me away at festival hall in 1972 - Just loved that concert. I saw JT recently ( last year I think) and Ian Anderson's voice is completely shot. I have rather eclectic taste in music and still go out and see lots of new music.On Friday night - I went and saw Illy at the HiFi Bar and was chuffed that they checked my ID The support asked for a show of hands of who was born in the 90's, then asked for those of the 80's. After a little lull I threw my hands in the air and screamed "child of the 50's" which got a round of applause from the "children" around me.

RIP. Condolences to his family on the loss of a good man.

Stress fractures are the great unknown. He may have to shorten his run and learn how to swing a ball not be a tear away quick. Oh sorry. that was Dennis Lillee